KerryMcG said: "..Obstetricians do not know how to give birth. .....To find out how, I had to go to the women. They told me to trust myself. I did. Wow!! "

Kerry, If you really want to be taken seriously, just leave out 'loaded' stuff like that. As I said earlier, it is easy for a woman in a major centre with immediate access the best medical and hospital facilities to dump on obstetricians, especially where she has had the benefit of regular scans and other screening (performed by those science-based medical people you have such contempt for).

Why not be reasonable and accpet the obvious which is that midwife assisted delivery is a choice for women who prefer it and are known to be good subjects. However the best risk management in that case would be midewife assisted delivery in hospital, especially where an infant resusitation facility is available.

There is really no need to sledge obstreticians or other medical specialists. Do you really believe they know nothing useful about birth?

I havent checked in on this debate for a few days, and so have gained a little perspective (I think), rather than just responding to the posts of others. Its true that there doesnt seem to be a lot of research being done in general about the changing roles and identities on becoming a parent, so by nature most of the posts here will be anecdotal - that doesnt mean that there is nothing to learn from them.

I hesitate to defend a statement made by someone else, but in this case I will try and show my take on Christy's point that men rarely have their autonomous hopes and dreams taken away from them. This to me is more the point of view that men rarely and are rarely expected to take on primary care for their children. Society still portrays an expectation that the mother assume this role. The problem is, particularly for women who also work (whether or not they have to in order to survive), that then leaves little time for pursuits of their own. Few men that I have seen (yes another anecdote) are put in the same position. Yes, their personal activities can be curtailed, but are rarely totally pushed aside.My husband for example certainly doesnt go fishing and hunting as often as he used to, but he still does on occasion. However for me to do something while he takes care of our child is seen as he is doing me a favour. Society sees him as a "good dad/husband" if he "helps" like this. I do know of exceptions, and these are generally ones where there is a sole parent (father) family, where the father has no choice but to take on all the facets of parenting, and so outside work has little or no time to pursue other interests.

Countrygal, there is some research on fathers that I know of, however the data is not this computer and from memory most of it was from the UK.

One piece of very interesting research is what is known as "Maternal Gatekeeping". (Google it)

James good point. I did the Google search and many of the most interesting pieces were pay for access ones but one article I found seemed to be very good as a general discussion of the issue http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/06/12/gatekeeping/print.html

It may be a bit too pro-feminist for your liking (and too willing to question for others) but worth a read.

One of the things I keep being reminded of in this discussion is that each of our situations is different.

R0bert

It could be that maternal gatekeeping connects with some deep needs and drives of women - need to be loved, valued and so on. It affects not only the male partner but other women who try to assist with children and the abode (territory?) as well. Few women seem to welcome support from the in-laws. It might also explain why women are more into parental alienation. Gatekeeping gone badly wrong.

I don't doubt that nature has more to do with certain of our behaviours than some would acknowledge. Maybe women are much more hardwired to nurture and to defend their issue and territory than we think. It could put a whole new meaning on 'identity change'.

Alright, so some of this is tongue in cheek.

Why do so many women persist with living in some sort of perpetual crisis? They appear to actively disadvantage themselves in some primal urge to invalidate their equality, but then get so pissed off at the rest of us as they succeed.

Could abortion be the ultimate act of maternal gatekeeping, closely followed by parental alienation? And what of paternity fraud – is that not also a form of gatekeeping denial? DNA testing – another denial. Child neglect and abuse … beware armed women at gate.