Can we reach some common ground on physiology? Do all agree that when giving birth, a woman who is anxious and feels unsafe tenses her muscles and consequently feels pain? That a woman who is relaxed and feels loved generates endorphines and may feel no pain?

Robert that maybe true.

I once supported feminism, until I gained more life experience and started reading much more widely. However I felt like what Tomas Ellis describes in 'The Rantings of a Single Male' that there was something bogus about feminism.

I have read many female authors, Daphne Patai, Melaine Phillips etc. I haven't obtained a copy of "Women who make the world worse" Kate O’Beirne and I don't think I will be.

Any woman who says, "Feminism is a belief in the equality of men and women" and then sits back and lets men be dissed. Is no better than a person who says that they don't support racial discrimination and then sits back and watches the KKK victimize african americans.

If they really support "human rights" and "social justice" they would tell the rad/gender feminists that they have gone too far!

By remaining silent they support the rads.

So, James H, do you apply the same high standards to other movements that you do to feminists? How about Catholics who remain silent about the sexual abuse of children by priests, or who actively cover it up? Does that give you permission to hate Catholicism? Do you hate North Koreans because many remain silent about their government's nuclear posturing? Do you hate men because many of them remain silent about domestic violence and rape? Do you hate hetereosexuals because many of them remain silent about gay bashing and abuse?
Of all the feminists I know I have never heard a single one say she hated men. Most of us are married to men, the children of men and have given birth to men, how could we hate you? We love you, we just don't always agree with you, and when we don't we will put our point of view vigorously and pay you the compliment of expecting you to do the same. There are radicals and nutters in every human group, country and religion - do you hate Muslims because of idiots like Sheik Hilaly? Why should feminism be any different? We're not saints or perfect, just women who believe in their right to control their own destiny AND believe in men's right to do so too.
The women who hate men are sad, just like the men who hate women. They tend to be damaged human beings with problems, such women do not represent the vast majority of feminists or feminism, just as such men do not represent the vast majority of men or male society.

Cristy should understand that the World will continue to turn if she completes, or fails her quest for a phd. Being a mother or father to your own child is the only job there is that nobody else on the planet can do. If John Howard was never born, somebody else would be prime minister right now. Modern young women need to review their lives and stop considering their careers as a 'significant' contribution to society - the real reason why governments now encourage life-long work from women is because of the extra tax revenue it gets its hands on.

Cristy,

I can't count the number of mothers who have been all too ready to give me their (welcomed) opinion on everything and anything. I can’t count the number of men who have had their identities and roles change after becoming fathers. Is there a study which quantifies how men and women's identities change? So far we're just giving anecdotal evidence.

My regards to your husband. I disagree with him too, because he seems to have missed the point as well, that we were disagreeing with a part of your argument, not because we don’t care about your feelings (as trade125 has pointed out.)

If you have no interest in starting a competition (neither do I for that matter) on whether it is worse, better, or the same as OTHER DIFFERENT impacts that men experience, why did you say that men's "autonomous hopes and dreams are rarely taken away from them just because they chose to breed," in the first place? If it is presumptuous of you to try to sum up how it affects men, why did you mention men’s experience, in relation to that of women, at all?

You have written about your own personal experience and those that impact on women, which we value and have found very informative. But you have written this in the context of feminism and patriarchy- terms which many on this forum, including myself, find problematic and well worth a good debate.

As I said in my opening post, surely more expensive child care hurts both men and women. I would suggest that this is just one subject where some can be too quick to blame "patriarchy" (yes Romany, I'm using quotation marks,) when it could be more complex than that. Allison pointed out that Japan, "very much a patriarchal society," has much more "family friendly facilities." Why would a patriarchal society provide disincentives to have children by making it difficult for mothers to use public transport and go to department stores?

TBC

As a number of posters have shown, the change of identity a woman undergoes when she becomes pregnant and has children, and the smaller numbers of people who are interested in her opinions, may not necessarily be all down to patriarchal attitudes.

Donnie,

This is going way back, but regarding your comments that an "emphasis on economic growth and industrial productivity" is a "patriarchal mindset." I know the response I'll get from mentioning Margaret Thatcher, but surely Karl Marx wasn't a pseudonym?

Kerry,

Regarding episiotomies, it seems a little odd that, given that you brought up the subject in order to make a point, you then told those who challenged your point that we shouldn't really debate it because we don't have enough room here.

Regarding, your latest post, yes, I agree.