keith

The Arabs stole Jewish and Christian land. They attacked long standing Jewish homes in Hebron and took them for themselves. In Iraq murderous actions against ancient Jewish communities forced the people out. In Egypt pressures on Jews and Christians forced them to leave. In all cases the Arabs were relatively recent conquerers. Jews were forced out of Yemen and in the Palestinian territories pressures are on the Christians with occasional killings.

In the UN mandated sections of Israel Arabs are claiming the lot not even making allowance for the Jews who fled Arab lands (about half of the Jewish population).

In Europe many Muslims are entering the countries, often illegally and then trying to radically alter the social landscape instead of fitting in with populations who sheltered them like all other immigrants have done. And would you really blame Israel for the bombings in India, Bali, London, Madrid, or for the wars between the Shia and the Sunnis?

But keep it up. Your arguments are so full of holes it is a pleasure to debate with you.

Keith:

You claim:

"In the case of Hamas they dropped the demand for the destruction of Israel from their election manifesto."

Well, I guess Mahmoud al-Zahar, the Foreign Minister of the Palestinian Authority's Hamas government, never got that memo. At a Hamas convention in the Gaza Strip on 20 October 2006, al-Zahar said:

"Israel is a vile entity that has been planted in our soil, and has no historical, religious or cultural legitimacy. We cannot normalize our relations with this entity."

And in an interview the next day with the Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat, al-Zahar elaborated on the Hamas agenda:

"We [aim to liberate] all our lands. If we have the option, we will establish a state on every inch of land within the 1967 [borders], but this does not by any means imply that we will relinquish our right to all the Palestinian lands. We want all of Palestine from [Ras] Naqura to Rafah, and from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river."

(For the geographically challenged, that means all of Israel proper, pre-1967, and even pre-1948)

So the Hamas dedication to the cause of Israel's destruction isn't a mere "election manifesto," as you claim. It is a central tenet of jihadi theology that is at the core of the Hamas (and al-Qaeda) world view.

What you don't seem to be able to comprehend the impossibility of trying to make peace with someone who doesn't believe you have a right to exist - especially if they try to enforce that belief through terrorist violence.

Moreover - you accuse the Israelis of land theft. On what basis other than treaties (Oslo, Road Map, etc...) that have been scuppered by the intransigent Palestinian refusal to eschew terrorist violence and genocidal war aims?

(BTW - you should recall that in a previous exchange I conclusively refuted your claim that UNSC Res. 242 provided such legal grounds. You'll have to do better than that...)

Ted

I’ve explained once how democracy works. I’m not going to do it again. Why can’t you comprehend the operation of democracy?

I understand the impossibility of trying to explain things to people who are intransient.

Tell me Ted exactly which neighbouring Arab Government has currently a declared policy of wanting to destroy Israel or who has not refuted such a policy?

Here is what you reject in UN Res 242.

‘…Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,
Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,
Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles: Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; …’

There in UN Res 242 are the words expressing the ideas we all know and accept are the key to peace in the Middle East.

Now Ted as you support the occupation and further Israeli land stealing…do you really want peace in the Middle East?

I think you do not. You’ll have to do better.

Keith
I have been watching your argument for some time and you still ignore the fact that Israel is the ancestral home of the Jewish people and the land was stolen from them firstly by the Romans and then by Islamic invaders. So please explain at which point this real estate became immutably the rightful possession of the descendants of those Islamic invaders? Because it seems to me that if you accept the legitimacy of the Palestinian’s claims to the land based on their acquisition of it as "spoils of war" then you must(to be morally consistent) accept that Israel's claim to the territory made on the same basis. Further it is no crime to retrieve from somebody, that which was stolen in the first place.

The reality of the world is that no people can sustain a claim to a territory that they cannot exclude others from.

None the less Israel has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to cede territory to acquire peace (the return of the Sinai to Egypt springs to mind) and the unilateral withdrawll from Gaza is a good example of one of the many opportunities for peace and state building that the Palestinians squandered on the altar of Jihad. Even the hated security fence would not exist if the Palestinians had not taken to sending suicide bombers into the cafe's and buses of Israel. The old adage that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity, to miss an opportunity is sadly still true.

Some how I expect you will trot out some justification for their tactics along the lines that the Palestinians are fighting a vastly superior military force; so I ask you now do you support the targeting of Israeli civilians in cafes and busses by the Palestinians

Allow me to answer on your behalf Keith.
I support the targeting of any Israeli civilian, who commits a criminal act.

Iain

I appreciate the decency of your questions and the legitimacy of the arguments you present.

I cannot at the moment fully respond...but it is my intendion to comprehensively respond.

Briefly though I will not trot out any justification for any of the violence but I will trot out a justification for a peaceful resolution.

Regards Keith