Is it democratic to force democracy on people?

Kaith

I do not know why the Israelis do not just tell the refugees to go back to jordan! They became Jordan's responsibility after Jordan illegally invaded, occupied and annexed the West bank in 1948/50. Jordan annexed and considered the Pals their own, even offering citizenship. The current situation on the West Bank is totally the fault of Jordan's and the Pal terrorist-nutters themselves.

Why should Israel put up with this nonsense any longer? We Australians certainly would not!

The Pals are the world's biggest whingers and ingrates. They are an undeserving pain-in-the-ass and it is time to shut up their tedious mewling.

Col

Damn I’ve borrowed my mate’s mother’s show horses. They’re Clydesdales and I’ve got a cannon, body armour and camouflage. I’ll win a war with stupid fools any day.
But Col ‘flaming’ posts such as stomont’s are usually removed. His wasn’t so I reacted…I know abysmally. I should have asked David Boaz to have him/her ethnically cleansed.

But anyway if you use the ‘spoils of war ‘ defence then you cannot grizzle when Arab states and terrorists say they are going to push Israel into the sea or when they eventually destroy it with nuclear bombs. You defence can only lead to war.

You are right on one count though peace can only be guaranteed by both sides and not imposed by weak outsider organisations or governments. I think a nuclear armed Iran and the US will eventually settle the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

Neocommie

David Boaz will be pleased you support his very unjust and unreasonable ‘final solution’…ethnic cleansing.
And here, silly me, I always thought the pommies were ‘the world’s biggest whingers and ingrates’.
Your thoughts lead me to doubt your authenticity. Are you really fair dinkum Australian? You know with your racist attitude and penchant for Nazi tactics? We modern Australians listen, debate and seek resolution we don’t ethnic cleanse.

Mickijo

No definitely not…but I reckon it reasonable to remove any condition that denies the choice.

Keith:

As usual, the selectivity of your outrage never ceases to amaze and amuse. You are indignant over the first Israeli settlements in 10 years, presumably because they "fuel Mid East tension" (per the NYT) by violating the Road Map peace plan.

But what does the Road Map really say? The preamble to the document states that peace will only be attainable when:

"the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror and willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty"

And a bit later on, the Road Map stipulates that the Palestinians must:

"declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere."

But in January this year the Palestinians elected a jihadist government that is dedicated to the proposition that Israel must be destroyed. A few quotes from the Hamas covenant make this rather clear:

""There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."

"Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."

And let’s not forget the 1,500 Qassam rockets that have fired into southern Israel since the disengagement from Gaza in August 2005. Hamas purportedly has observed a “tahadiya” (truce) with Israel, but as the sovereign PA government it has done nothing to prevent its sister jihadist groups from shooting rockets into Israel.

Thus the Road Map has been nullified by Palestinian words and deeds. You say nothing about Palestinian terrorist violence towards Israel, but then you get your knickers in a knot when the Israelis build a few homes in the West Bank because they purportedly violate a treaty that has rendered moot by Palestinian action

Re Keith,
According to Keith what we have in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a good old 18-19 century Euro border dispute. If only Israel would return to the 1967 border, all would be well, & they would live happily ever after.

Keith is victim of his own Euro centric mindset.

It is not about a piece of land - “occupied lands” & the 1967 war are the SYMPTOMS -not the cause.

Israel does not occupy any Iranian land-yet Iran is foremost in its anti -Israeli advocacy .
Israel does not occupy any Saudi land -yet the Saudis at govt level heavily fund anti-Israeli forces, & at a non-official level provides many of the foot-soldiers for terror groups .
Israel does not occupy any Egyptian land -yet many of the terror leaders are of Egypt origin
Likewise to a lesser extend most countries of the region, & in foreign policy at least, Indonesia & Malaysia.

The heartland of these countries is captive to common ideology.
An ideology whose leading-lights can, without fear of sanction or rebuke call for :
-Israel to be driven into the sea & its women to taken as the spoils of war.
-All non-Moslems to be driven out of the Saudi peninsula
And who operate on the principles:
- If you attack me it is an offence, if I attack you (even on your holiest of days ) it’s OK
- If I take or desecrate your holy site it’s Ok . If you seek to build on mine its sacrilege

The antagonism wont be defused by Israeli withdrawal -or US isolation -or any of the other little Keithian formulas.

It would much more likely be solved by the protagonists opening up their societies ,allowing free & open debate, & alternate interpretations of current/world events , & by allowed their peoples access to competing creeds.

So Ted you think you've found a way to justify land stealing?

Two wrongs never make a right Ted.

Was the invasion of Lebanon part of the road map Ted?

Look Ted in a democracy parties and people standing for election issue a list of policies. It's called an election manifesto. It is what parties or individuals are elected to carry out. Quite simple really, in fact so simple that it doesn't usually even need be explained. But here we are explaining it to you. Now does that really say you lack an unbderstanding of the basics of democracy? Probably? Why Ted? Is it because it doesn't suit you and your arguments? In the case of Hamas they dropped the demand for the destruction of Israel from their election manifesto. You continually ignore this basic operation of democracy. Is it merely that you simply cannot bring yourself to trust Arabs from who you support the stealing of land?

As for a few houses on Palestinian land ... Ted there is no scale of right or wrong in this case... well maybe your particular ethical standards allow such but most of us don't. Our simple decency and morality determine even one house built illegally is wrong.

Ted ceasing the building of houses might no longer be part of Israel's road map but surely even you can understand it can only lead to further friction and eventual further violence. Regardless of any local accord the action still violates the articles of the Geneva Convention. Oh but that's right you continually choose to reject that internationl conventional, we all accept, as piece of bs too don't you?

Why is it you reject the conventions and the morality the vast majority of us true believers in democracy and freedom of the individual abide by?

You might find my attitudes amusing but I find yours will only lead to violence. And we can all understand, with the arrogrance contained in some of your latest post, exactly why.

Keith Kennelly