Good article, Ted.

Keith, cc: BOAZ_David, Stomont

Keith: "East Jerusalem was mandated to the Palestinians by the UN in the 20th century."

Actually, it wasn't. The last UN decision re the final status of Jerusalem (East and West) was Res. 181, the 1947 Partition Plan, which mandated that the city be internationalized. This resolution was rejected by the Palestinian leadership, and is today moot. In the Olso Accords, Israel and the PLO agreed that Jerusalem's final status is subject to negotiation between the parties, not that it is "mandated to the Palestinians".

Keith: "The evidence paints Israelis as stupid narrow-minded socialist racists... You try to equate what I say about Israel as criticism of the Jews. So does stormont."

Keith, whether your bigotry and prejudice is just as distasteful and offensive whether directed against the entire Jewish people or the entire Israeli people.

So let's return to the borders as mandated under UN Res 181 and leave Jerusalem as an internation city.

Yep state you equate what I say about Israelis with Jews. That Just proves I'm not racist and that you are.

You really are showing yourself to be that stupid stomont, and your foolishness continues to show it's boundlessness.

Every time you open your mouth it's confirmed.

sganot

To me personally when you use abusive language I wonder if it is an advantage to have you on the same side as me. Please stop it.

Some aspects of this debate are becoming silly, I feel embarrassed to be involved.

Logic,

Old-fashioned anti-Semitism has fallen out of favor in polite company, especially since the Holocaust. Thus, some people try to shield their views from direct criticism by hiding behind more socially acceptable, politically correct prejudices -- against Zionism, against Israelis, etc. But few anti-Zionists are principled, consistent opponents of nationalism or self-determination for peoples throughout the world. Most are quite happy to enjoy the benefits of their own nation states, homelands, etc., and likewise support maintaining the sovereignty of pretty much every state in the world, and extending national independence to additional groups – the Palestinians, Kurds, Tibetans, etc. -- while the promote denial of the same to the Jews.

Other than sheer hypocrisy and an anti-Jewish double-standard, what can explain why some people acknowledge that more than a score of Arab states, as well as dozens of other states with various ethnic, religious, and linguistic identities -- Chinese, Korean, Greek, German, Irish, Croatian, Thai, Russian, Polynesian, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., can exist, while the one Jewish state must be destroyed?

Keith says he isn’t anti-Jewish, but he is shockingly comfortable telling us that “the evidence paints Israelis as stupid narrow-minded socialist racists”, comparing us to supporters of Nazi Germany. He apparently feels it necessary to deny the embarrassing accusation that he is bigoted and prejudiced against millions of Jews, but “corrects” this by showing that really, his bigotry and prejudice is directed against millions of Israelis. To me, this is just as distasteful and offensive.

I cannot understand what "abusive language" you think I used. The only explanation is that you confused me with someone else.

Sganot,

You are full of it!

First let's correct your obvious error. No-one decent is trying to deny a home for the Jews. No-one decent is trying to deny the Israeli state the right to exist. Except the extremists. You start your criticism of me with those simple fallacies. Throw some mud and it might stick? Those, now refuted, claims were intended to prejudice anything anyone might think about me sfter reading your later accusations.

Let me state catagorically ...just so you understand, my postion.

I believe Israel should exist within the pre '67 borders. Equally I believe Palestine should be allowed to be unoccupied by the Israeli's and the soverignity of all illegal settlements should be returned to a Palestinian free state.

That is my position. It has been placed on the public record a number of times.

Yet you say I believe in the destruction of Israel and therefore am anti semitic. How can you justify that position on the basis of my oft expressed views?

Yes I said

'the evidence paints Israelis as stupid narrow-minded socialist racists'

They elect socialist Governments. (That's just plain stupid in a liberal democracy.)
They refuse and dismiss the peace overtures of the Arab League. (That long term is sheer stupidity)
They continually claim, like yourself, Arabs only want to see the destruction of Israel. (Yep narrow-minded given the experiences of Jordan and Egypt.)
They have different laws for different racial groups within Israel. (That's racist.)
They continually believe violence will ensure their existance. (That's both narrow-minded and stupid)

That's a start. Now is my statement correct or not? Is it racist or not?

Now let's deal with your misrepresentation of what I've said:

The world went to war because Nazi Germany overran Poland and occupied the place. They were oppressors. Israel overran Palestine ('67) continue a 40 year occupation and repress the Palestinians. They are oppressors.

Is that an unfair comparison?

Now if you cannot comprehend what I have said you would be exactly the same as that other defender of the unjust and bastion of stupidity and foolishness, Stomont.

keith we are coming together on general principals and that is great.

But the analogy with Germany I believe has some serious errors. Germany was not threatened by Poland when it attacked. Israel had already been attacked by the Palestinians and other Arab countries, several times before. It was during such an attack on Israel that Israel fought back and took the Gaza strip, Golan heights and Gaza and the West Bank all of which had been used as a base to attack it. The stated rhetoric of the Arab states was to destroy the Jewish state.

Occupying the territories was an understandable attempt to remove a hostile element. What happened after that is muddied by the refusal of the Arab world to remove its opposition and by hawks in the Israeli government to a stage where an understanding by the two sides is becoming difficult. The arrival of Arab Nationalism and the Islamic fanatics has made things much worse.

Israel has one legal system for everyone.

I agree wholeheartedly about the settlements and have made that position clear many times.

What,s wrong with democratic socialism? Sweden, Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands thrived on it although it has now probably passed its use by date.

sganot you have accused keith of being as being distasteful and offensive and insisted that you know his motives. Keith in turn has been very abusive, I would rather that stopped and we confine ourself to the argument - that is just my preference, otherwise things escalate everyone gets angry and we fail to learn from each other.