Chad “please explain”
Are you saying that all those civilians DELIBERATELY TARGETTED by Palestinians/Arabs in suicide attacks on Israeli buses/market places/restaurants etc were guilty of a crime ?

If so, what was the little old lady on a shopping trip guilty of, & what was the primary aged child on his way to school guilty of -what crime did they commit which was so heinous it justified death or maiming

KEITH:

You keep harping on about democracy as if it were in any way relevant to the issue at hand. I don't dispute that the Hamas government was freely elected by the Palestinian people.

So what?

If anything, it merely reinforces my point the no peace is currently possible because the Palestinians have democratically endorsed a jihadi government that is dedicated to the proposition that Israel must be destroyed.

You can't talk peace with people who want to slit your throat

Nothing in the definition of democracy mandates that foreign governments have a legal or even moral obligation to fund and support a government whose agenda they find to be obnoxious. And Israel, the US and the EU quite understandably, find Hamas to be obnoxious in the extreme.

You have a real talent for honing in on irrelevancies. And the patronizing tone that you adopt while doing so makes you out to be an even bigger dill.

I have previously explained, ad nauseum, why the 4th Geneva Convention doesn't apply to the West Bank. These cannot be considered "territory of a High Contracting Party" because the unilateral Jordanian annexation in 1949 never received international recognition. Thus the 1967 capture of the West Bank by Israel can arguably be considered the restoration of the territorial unity of the former British Mandate of Palestine. No foreign conquest - no 4th Geneva Convention.

Yet despite all this, Israel demonstrated a willingness to cede 95%+ of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinians. But Yasir Arafat figuratively spat in the faces of Bill Clinton and Ehud Barak at Taba in January 2001 and chose the war option instead. An exact repeat of the imbecilic error the Palestinians made in 1937 and 1947 when they rejected the Peel and UN partition plans.

But the truly fascinating thing about all this is the selectivity of your indignation. You seem to find Israeli homebuilding to be more offensive than Palestinian suicide bombings of commuter buses, restaurants and shopping malls

KEITH:

I do not deny that Israel’s security barrier causes inconvenience to some Palestinians, and economic loss to others. But the barrier has been effective in obstructing the path of suicide bombers into Israel’s heartland, with such terrorism declining by more than 90% over the past 24 months.

And let’s not forget that the barrier was only constructed after years of suicide terrorism caused even moderate Israelis to despair of finding a genuine Palestinian partner for peace. And as previously stated, the election of the jihadi Hamas government only validates that Israeli scepticism.

So when it comes down to annoyance and lost income vs the saving human lives, I think most people would opt to protect lives. Most people except you, Keith. Once again you appear to value Israeli lives less than you value economic and nuisance factors.

And as for UNSC resolution 242, I’ll tell ya what – when the Palestinians finally agree to:

“Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force”

then we can talk about making peace. But as I have conclusively demonstrated, the majority of Palestinians are unwilling to recognise Israel’s borders and right to exist peacefully as a Jewish state.

The Israelis withdrew from Gaza (and no it didn’t become an “open air prison” because the border between Rafah and Egypt is controlled by Palestinians) and what did they get? 1,500 rockets fired into Israel by Palestinian terrorist groups, that’s what.

That’s not much of an incentive towards the implementation of a unilateral withdrawal from most of the West Bank – which is the election platform that brought victory to Ehud Olmert’s Kadima party in the latest Israel parliamentary ballot.

Olmert’s “convergence” plan to pull out of almost all the West Bank is dead on arrival, courtesy of Palestinian terrorist violence. But I’m sure Keith will figure out some way to blame that on Israel, as well.

Keith: “No-one decent is trying to deny a home for the Jews. No-one decent is trying to deny the Israeli state the right to exist.”

Correct. Indecent people are.

Keith: “I believe Israel should exist within the pre '67 borders. Equally I believe Palestine should be allowed to be unoccupied by the Israeli's and the soverignity of all illegal settlements should be returned to a Palestinian free state.”

Great. Your position is virtually identical to that of many Israelis, and quite similar to that of many more Israelis (including myself). Most of us don’t favor a return to the exact pre-1967 armistice lines, but if it could achieve real peace and an end to the conflict, we’d be willing to go back almost to those lines, and in some areas, perhaps give up even more. We don’t make the mistake of talking about “returning sovereignty” to a Palestinian state, because there never was a sovereign Palestinian state. But if the establishment of such a state would contribute significantly to peace and justice, so be it.

Keith: “Yet you say I believe in the destruction of Israel and therefore am anti semitic.”

That isn’t what I said. You deny being anti-Jewish, but are openly anti-Israeli. For example, you called us “stupid narrow-minded socialist racists” and compared us to supporters of Nazi Germany. And later, you claimed “the Israelis are nothing but a bunch of land thieves and causes of the disruption in the mid East. This is absolute proof…. Who can trust any of them?”

That, Keith, is bigotry and prejudice, or what is popularly called “racism”.

Keith: “They elect socialist Governments”.

Sometimes.

In Israel as everywhere, social democracy, the welfare state, labor unions, etc. have gone through major changes. For better or for worse, neither the Labor Party nor the Histadrut are what they used to be. You are entitled to your opinion about Left and Right, but the idea that either is “just plain stupid” is, well, just plain stupid.

Continued…

Keith: “They refuse and dismiss the peace overtures of the Arab League. (That long term is sheer stupidity)”

All sides have dismissed peace overtures. Non-Israeli, non-Jewish friends of mine who are very sympathetic to the Palestinians (actually to both sides) have called the Arab League “peace overture” empty, a bad joke, not serious.

Keith: “They continually claim, like yourself, Arabs only want to see the destruction of Israel…”

No, that is what you claim we claim; it is your prejudice about us. If you wish to know what we really think, ask us, don’t tell us.

Keith: “They have different laws for different racial groups within Israel.” Baloney.

Keith: “Now is my statement correct or not?” Not.

Keith: “Is it racist or not?”

Your statement? Yes. Israeli law? No.

Keith: “Is that an unfair comparison?” Yes, absolutely, unfair and obscene.

Logic: “sganot you have accused keith of being as being distasteful and offensive and insisted that you know his motives.”

I could not care less what his motives are. His views about Israelis are distasteful and offensive.

Keith: “Israel has one law for one and another for others in it's conscription requirements.”

The reason Israeli Muslim and Christian Arabs enjoy an exemption from army service is so that they will not be forced to choose between loyalty to their country and to their “brothers” -- Palestinians and other Arabs who are in conflict with Israel. The Arab community is not clamoring to end this “discrimination”, but insists on maintaining it. Logic, it is not exactly because “Israel does not expect others to risk their lives for the predominately Jewish state”. After all, throughout the world, minorities (including Jews) are often conscripted and asked to risk their lives for countries where they are not the predominant ethnic group. And by the way, the Druze community is conscripted into the IDF (again, this is the explicit preference of their community). And while Muslim and Christian Arabs are not drafted, they may volunteer. Many Bedouins (who are Muslim Arabs) do just that. And many Druze and Bedouin soldiers have died defending Israel.

sganot

I stand corrected.