fleurette - ‘But these problems are related to the countries and their people’

The problem is Islam. 'These problems' begin and end with Islam. Loyalty to Islam comes first, as the home grown bombers prove. A YouGov poll among Britain's Muslims immediately after the July 7 bombings (London's The Daily Telegraph, July 23) found 6% believed them fully justified. A further 24%, while not condoning the bombings, expressed sympathy with the feelings and motives of their perpetrators. Some 32% believe "Western society is decadent and immoral" and "Muslims should seek to bring it to an end". Are Muslims in Australia so different?

‘we are the ones …’

*We*? I have never persecuted Muslims or bombed their countries. Like most Australians, I knew little about Islam before Muslim immigration - So tell me again why I should accept creatures like al-Hilaly and Trad spouting their filth in Australia? Muslims have committed far more crimes against Australians than vice versa, as the creation of the Middle East Crime Squad proves. In 1996, the Muslim unemployment level was 25% compared to the 9% of the national total (ABS). How does Australia benefit by Islamic immigration?

‘.. racist, intolerant, PURELY AUSTRALIAN BORN’

Once again, where do you live? You obviously haven't a clue about the real situation. The Cronulla riots were the result of years of harassment and violence by M.E. hoodlums. Complaints by locals to police resulted in no action being taken. That you fail to mention the revenge attacks (when police allowed a convoy of armed Muslims to attack innocent people) is yet another example of twisting yourself into knots to defend the indefensible. Unless, of course, you believe that Australians should ‘tolerate’ migrants behaving in this fashion. And please don’t say that the gangs were ‘Australians’ (because some were born here) – they are not.

‘I’m a one-of-a-kind Christian Lebanese’

It was the Christian Lebanese who first warned Australians about the dangers of Islamic immigration. Too bad the government didn’t listen. The last thing Australia needs is Islam.

TurnRightThenLeft –‘nobody here is defending the sheikh’

Not in so many words, but the fact that the sheik has many followers is carefully avoided. To compare George Pell with a blow-in like al-Hilaly, who is in Australia only because Keating and McLeay needed the Muslim vote, is beyond offensive. Al-Hilay's words are not ‘dumb’, they are evil, and by expressing sympathy for gang rapists, he incites more of the same. al-Hilaly has preached similar bile for many years – perhaps the words of his mouthpiece, Kayser Trad, should also be widely publicized. Trad is even more offensive and full of hate for Australia than his boss.

‘those hailing from Turkey’

I agree that Turkey differs from the rest of the Islamic world, I suspect because religion and state are separate in that country.

‘ how does the desert bear relevance?’

Islam was created as a religion for desert people 1400 years ago and has not changed. The OT says: 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' but now witchcraft is accepted as a valid belief system. The OT says that homosexuality is an 'abomination' but now homosexuals have the same rights as heteros; Jesus told the woman taken in adultery to go home and sin no more - in the same situation, Mohammed ordered the woman stoned. The words of Allah (via Mohammed) are immutable. Homosexuals and adulters are still stoned.

Re Saudi Arabia – couldn’t agree more! Pres. Bush should have declared Saudi a terrorist country and invaded it instead of Iraq. The reputed closeness of the Bush family to the bin Ladens is a worry.

‘muslim's questioning western motivations’.

Not only Muslims! There are so many possible reasons for the war in Iraq that we will probably never know the truth.

“ more important issues out there”

All these issues, small and large, are connected to Islam and the refusal of many Muslims to live by the laws and mores of their adopted countries as well as their aggressive attempts to change our societies to suit them.

fleurette asked: "How can you fear something that has not occurred?”

Assuming you did not mean: "How can you fear something re-occurring?", this takes the cake of the year's newspeak for "logic".

The lengths people go to just to hold their dogmatic grounds!

I have met many Muslims who cared about the plight of non-muslims in Islamic countries. And the plight of many people in other countries.

It depends on how secure people feel. Educated Muslims with prestigious occupations are like secure people anywhere else. The example of Nazi Germany showed what certain people can do when the majority feel threatened.

Dee -

Interesting that you point out that the old testament had things like suffering witches to live and homosexuality, which have both become largely acceptable in modern society (well, certainly not stoning offences).

Here's the rub. Islam is constantly criticised for the content of the Qu'ran. I'm not sure about the content myself, but we keep hearing about mohammed's paedophilia and such instances.

Fair enough to argue the christian faith has changed and moved on - it has. A little more acknowledgment that plenty of muslims outside of oppressive muslim regimes have moved on as well would be nice.

Of course muslim regimes are infinitely worse than secular ones... but are they infinitely worse than christian ones? We can't say because christian government in a fundamentalist form doesn't exist any more. It has evolved.

A facetious person would point out here recent howard government decisions, but that comparison's still pretty far away from being valid, but... isn't prevention better than cure?

Clearly, fundamentalist islam nations have not evolved their religion in the same way as western ones, and have become tyrannical in exercising their power.

I guess my main point here is don't bag Islam for what's in the Qu'ran. The old testament has issues too. It's all just thousands of year old gobbledygook.

Fair point in criticising those who actually deem that as acceptable. But be open to those of the Islamic faith who don't.

Keep in mind the millions of muslims among the nations of the first world who are enlightened people.
Ostracizing them only leads to more problems, as mentioned in a more recent OLO article.

TRTL,

I totally agree with your above post.

The problem is not with Islam but with a xenophobic culture that has for a long time interpreted it in an anachronistic manner.

One is still a Muslim if they accept from the Quran what they consider to be essential to Islam, but reject what is arguably only the result of historical circumstances, and thus contingent.

I also think Islamo-fascist extremists want nothing more than that everybody FAIL to make this distinction between the progressives and the rednecks in Islam.

Still, we do have the problem that such rednecks exist, and are far more of a worry than any of the innocuous 500 or so members of white extremist groups throughout Australia, whom ASIO said are even too afraid to show their faces.

And I don't think we can continue to jump to conclusions that those critical of such radicals are only being biased either. If a sector of the population felt as marginalised as Muslims do, you'de think they'd jump at the opportunity to take advantage of this moment and publicly rally against the rednecks.

Australians do not judge an entire people on the actions of a few - if they did we'd not have Australia but some other country! Australians judge the reactions to these few, and form opinion on that basis. That's totally reasonable.