“.. neither one of you even attempt to make a clear argument?’

I have made clear arguments for everything I have written.

‘barrage of personal insults’

Please point out any ‘personal insults’ I have directed to you. Unless you consider my suspicions concerning your religion an insult?

‘nor attempts to address any of my points.’

I have addressed every point you made. You have addressed almost none of mine. I asked you several questions to which you have not responded.

Re grammatical errors. I have not mentioned grammatical errors – I pointed out that ‘no such creature’ is a commonly used phrase and that perhaps your misunderstanding was deliberate.

‘42,000 separate Protestant churches ..’

Please define your use of ‘churches’. The Christian faith is often grouped into four categories: the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Protestantism (often including Anglicanism). There are over 1,500 Protestant sects that differ in practice and belief but they are all Christians who acknowledge Jesus as The Messiah.

‘or is he ‘a self hating Christian too’?’

No doubt powers of invention are handy in your chosen field but I have never called you ‘a self-loathing Christian’.

‘ever heard of ... Robert Fisk , Noam Chomsky’ –

Should I be in awe because you quote a litany of leftwing, America-hating writers with whom you agree? Please don’t quote these names at me as if they are the True Gospel, especially Fisk, whose reports are often sheer fantasy (re the invasion of Iraq). Have you ever read writers who give an opposing opinion?

‘Go do some light reading’.

Does this qualify as a ‘personal insult’?

‘ ..political zionists who are to blame.’

The refusal of Islamic counties to accept the existence of Israel is at the root of the trouble in the Middle East. The stated aim of Islamic leaders is to destroy the state of Israel and to ‘drive the Jews into the sea’. Read their public statements and manifestos. They do not want negotiation, they want the total destruction of Israel.

That's why Saudi Arabia made a statement saying that if Israel withdrew from the territories and ended its occupation, then the Arab countries would no longer resent its presence in the region? So much for wanting its complete destruction! Perhaps you have honed in on the statement from the Iranian president rather than addressed the concerns of all countries in the Middle East who are against Israel. I'd say Lebanon has a great excuse to resent Israel. I'd say countries sympathising with the Palestinians also have reason to criticise the nation. But more than anything I'd say that countries which Israel has attacked should be more than willing to show antagonism towards such a militaristic neighbor (which incidentally enough DOES have WMD like their US buddies). So please stop acting like Israel is a victim in this madness!

To save time I responded collectively to all 3 of the posts requesting a response. If you were not one involved in the 'nitpicking of the personal' than you can ignore that..but then again I suppose it wouldn't leave you with much else to work with if you simply responded to the topics relevant to your argument. You can only say "muslims are evil, barbaric, backward and the cause of world suffering" for so long, eh?

GZ Tan,
If oppression breeds stupidity it still means that the outcome of stupidity is the result of oppression. Thus the oppressors are still to blame.

Just because you think oppression breeds stupidity doesn't mean that it doesn't also breed violence – it doesn't mean that violence is JUSTIFIED but in the given circumstances it's understandable that people will want to fight against occupation. Now we're entering the arena of common sense.

Logic, naturally when one is so overwhelmed with information on a subject they are hardly inclined to repeat to an audience such as this one. I'd happily discuss this if it was just you asking but when people who accuse me of lying about my religion also jump on the bandwagon I tend to get a bit of a 'why bother' happening

And no I wouldn't recommend reading a book that supports your opinion and tells you exactly what you want and need to know. But when you read the same thing time and time again in almost every piece of credible literature you've read on the subject you tend to see patterns emerge which are hard to ignore. It's not brainwashing. Brainwashing is when you listen to Israeli propaganda that says the piece of land known as Palestine was empty when Jews settled there. Or when they construct Arabs as filthy, desert and camel ridden farmers incapable of civilisation. Or when they say that they are victims of the Holocaust and therefore any violence against others is justified.

But I will give you a short answer because your civil attempt at an argument is a breath of fresh air and I respect your attempt at objectivity. What is frightening about Israel is that unlike South Africa the institutionalised racism occurs on a more insidious level. There are no signs saying 'Jews only'. There are no designated areas for Jews and non Jews. But the education system, the employment system and the laws which govern the country are specifically for Jews and Jews alone. It's not Jews versus Arabs – it's Jews versus non-Jews. It is a militaristic ethnocracy.

GZ TAN,
No one asked the question ‘how can they be this many churches’ per se, they implied that it was a false statement and that as a result of saying it, I somehow converted religion just like that (in order to convert to Islam you must say 'there is no God but allah' but hey if you think this constitutes a conversion then so be it!).

'tell a tree by its fruit'.
You can tell I'm not Christian how exactly? Because I'm defending the Muslims?

So if a Christian defended the Jews in Nazi Germany, is he no longer a Christian?

I suppose that explains why the Pope didn't say or do enough to stop the onslaught before it began.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qALcJzekk5A&eurl=

Fleurette...a cunning "Muslim" posing as a Christian... a wolf in sheep skin... a mole... a liar... a hypocrite... someone who speaks with a forked tongue and bears false witness...

Fleurette,
In future, whenever you see a woman wearing a mini-skirt, do not allow the thought of her being a "cheap slut" enters your head, before recalling how I have just described you.

Because it is not the physical outward appearance that matters. It is the mind.

Because you are morally corrupt and ethically bankrupt !!

You are truly the lowest of the low !!

Fleurette - ‘ Arab countries would no longer resent its presence in the region’

May I ask why you believe this obvious lie? Any ‘statement’ from a country that funds terrorism and publishes 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' is not even remotely believable.

'Perhaps you have honed in on the statement from the Iranian president'

Dozens of Islamic leaders have made these statements. They are easily verifiable.

‘..acting like Israel is a victim in this madness’

Neither side is blameless. The existence of Israel is a hard reality and it is an Arab fantasy to believe that the Israelis will ever surrender or leave. The conflict will remain so long as ‘driving the Jews into the sea’ is the aim. Another reason for Muslim resentment is the fact that the State of Israel, created in 60 years, is a feat that Muslim Arabs have been unable to achieve. It makes them look bad, perhaps their own people may even begin to ask why the billions of oil dollars have not improved their lives.

Israel is a victim of ‘the war of the flea’ sydrome, in which a large dog is continually attacked by hundreds of tiny biting insects at different times. Should the dog not defend itself because the attackers are individually smaller?

‘You can only say "muslims are evil ... and the cause of world suffering"’

I have never said this, although Islamic religious Fascism is responsible for many of the world’s present ills. Islam has contributed nothing to humanity but misery and its main victims are Muslims.

‘ ..the same thing time and time again in almost every piece of credible literature’

Credible by whose standards? Many on your list have based their careers on hating the West and denigrating the very system that gave them wealth, fame and freedom of speech (which they use to praise despots and religious Fascists).

What you are really saying is that the people you agree with are ‘credible’ and anyone who disagrees with them is ‘brainwashed’.

Wow talk about generalizing. I haven't read all of the comments but they're quite similar. I, myself, am a Muslim and am thoroughly disgusted at how many people are generalizing millions of people. All Muslim men are going to rape women? Of course not. Religion has nothing to do with rape. Any man can rape a woman, and under no circumstances is it EVER the woman's fault. Rape is NEVER about sex, it is always about wanting to feel powerful. It doesn't matter if a woman is wearing sweats or lingerie. Clothing is used as an excuse. And as for the veil issue, please actually researching the religion. I am a Muslim and I do not wear a veil. My family left the choice up to me and I chose not to. If women are allowed to wear underwear outside their clothing they can ofcourse wear a veil. If I started to wear a veil tomorrow, none of my friends would REFUSE to talk to me. It seems so many people commenting must be scholars, because of how they talk. Women have just as much power as men. The Koran was written in the days of housewives, so that is why it's the norm in the book. But it also says a woman CHOOSES who she can marry, she is ENCOURAGED to have an education and her husband has no right to limit her rights or order her. Because of the new portrayal of Muslims by the media, when people hear my last name, they judge me and assume I am for war, Binladen etc. I would like you to know that the killing of any innocent person is an automatic sentence to hell in ISLAM. Only in a war situation can you kill soldiers who are fighting with you. I hate how one ass extremist can say 'Convert or die because my religion says so' and can actually change the point of view of millions. Next time anyone talks about a religion, please try an research it or talk to someone of the religion, otherwise please don't judge.