fleurette - 'As opposed to ... loyalty to one's nation?'

Exactly. This 'loyalty' allows British-born Muslims to plan murder and mayhem against other Britons. If loyalty to their country came before their religious superstitions, there would be no ‘home-grown’ suicide bombers.

‘a desire to be an autonomous people free of apartheid’.

That worked out well! South Africa is now a basket case, the rape and crime capital of the world. Even the white ‘humanitarians’ who helped to topple Apartheid are leaving the country like rats abandoning a sinking ship. Apartheid was an inhumane system but the present one is no better. South Africa has become yet another African hellhole.

'7th century Islam because that's soo relevant to today’

Its relevant to Muslims. Have you never heard Islamic leaders state that killing westerners is ‘revenge’ for The Crusades? Australia is included among ‘the Crusader countries’? So who is living in the 7th century?

‘ trying desperately to make the tenuous link between Islam and terrorism’.

Are you for real? Check out the FBIs most wanted list. Of the 122 most wanted, 119 are Islamic terrorists who never miss the opportunity to state that they kill and maim in the name of Islam. Of course not all Muslims are terrorists, but 99% of terrorists are Muslims.

‘after 9/11 practically everyone supported it [Iraq war]'

On the contrary, many people wondered why Pres. Bush did not aim at the real culprit, Saudi Arabia.

'the myriad of attacks .. war and horror that the West has inflicted on ... the Middle Eastern Muslims?'

The greatest killer of Muslims is other Muslims.

‘I'm starting a war on Anger and Fluster.’

If Anger and Fluster are responsible for maiming and killing human beings, then I’m all for starting a war. ‘Terror’ is what we feel when there is a strong possibility that our loved ones may be slaughtered in the name of a primitive ‘religion’. The people who carry out these attacks are ‘terrorists’. As The Chief replied to Maxwell Smart when he commented that terrorist activities were ‘terrible’:

“That’s why they call it ‘terrorism’, Max!”

fleurette

Largely I agree with you but Israel is not an apartheid state and far less ethnocratic than Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It is true that Israel does not have a civil marriage system but it does recognise foreign marriages and does not outlaw de facto relationships of any kind.

If a Jew in Israel wishes to convert to Islam or Christianity and marry someone of their new faith within a Mosque/Church that is totally legitimate. How many middle eastern countries allow a Muslim to convert to Judaism or Christianity and then marry outside of their faith? I suggest you look up the definition of apartheid.

And Israel did leave the occupied territory of Gaza after forcefully removing its own settlers only to face deadly rocket attacks almost the day after they left.

Muslims here do face a lot of predjudice but this was inflamed when a tiny minority killed many Australians in Bali. Suicide bombing is hardly the way to make friends and influence people. I understand the alienation of Islamic groups but it becomes hard to be generous when many terrible things are said and done by some in the name of Islam.

GZ Tan,

You know when someone responds to your post saying exactly what you expect them to say because that’s how predictable the post-9/11 brainwashed mind is? Well I had never truly experienced that feeling until your post.
So thank you.
In response to your queries, I shall attempt to make this as succinct as possible.
Nationalism is intrinsically linked to ‘struggle’. You cannot fight against occupation if you are not a nation or if you don’t see yourself as a ‘Palestinian’ or a ‘South African’ or an ‘Indian’. - Instead you are one of many groups which differs culturally, linguistically, geographically etc. If one group says ‘let’s rise up against the Imperialists’. Are you going to listen to that group? Not unless they say ‘we are all ________ therefore we should fight for OUR freedom’.
I don’t see how you can think that I am using this as a way of justifying suicide bombing when I am opposed to nationalism on all levels (Like Gandhi). Fanon is another one who was against nationalism. But the truth is, it works. Nothing else has inspired such rigour determination amongst the populace than nationalism – binding together under one flag.

"The very first terrorists against Israel were Japanese communists"
Actually it is very important. Particularly when some people (like yourself) come to the conclusion that ‘Islam = terrorism=world domination’. I think the Japanese communists who shot and wounded Israelis in Tel Aviv beg to differ.
‘On May 30, 1972 three members of the Japanese Red Army undertook a terrorist attack at Lod Airport in Tel Aviv on behalf of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.’ – do a search.

‘btw, may you regard Iraq war as a joke war, perhaps Afghanistan included. I don't.’
Neither do I. There’s nothing remotely funny about 650,000 Iraqis dead thanks to the US.
But I was referring to the “War on Terror” as the butt of the joke. Oh. Don’t tell me! You believe Iraq is PART of the war on terror! So it all makes sense.
(continued)

(How a country like Iraq, with a secular Arab government, not one case of suicide terrorism prior to US invasion, had no members in Al Qaeda, is somehow linked to Fox’s ‘War on Terror’ is beyond me).

“So why would you relate to Israeli laws?”

Sigh. This is very silly of you.
Perhaps my sarcasm is not translating well for you and Sharkin. Allow me to break it down.

Inter-marriage is not a problem elsewhere – It’s not a problem anywhere.
He is correct in saying a refusal to inter-marry is ONE of many issues inherent in conflict.
But it’s not a refusal to marry on their own terms – it’s because it’s against the LAW in Apartheid states like Israel.
Capisce?

- What you want me to have said:
‘You are "right" that peace will never exist in the world, until the state of Israel is destroyed,’
- What I actually said:
‘Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories’
(It’s not an optical illusion. Just copying and pasting. Works wonders!)

At first you suggested that I am ‘coming to conclusions in order to justify terrorism’.
Yet here is your lovely summary of the mumbo-jumbo war against Islam.
A Logical Sequence of Events by GZ TAN
“Destroy Israel; which subsequently MUST lead to the destruction of the US (naturally); Then the destruction of freedom and democracy (Because it exists nowhere else in the world apparently and the US and ISRAEL (ha!) is the exemplar of F & D; Everyone will have to convert to Islam because without F+D what other option do we have?; Then we have Islamic sects because it wouldn’t feel right being unified under the one umbrella seeing as we have thousands upon thousands of Christian variants - only logical to create division in our new religion.

Wow all that comes from telling Israel to withdraw from the territories?

Hoo-rah for Freedom and Democracy.

Dee thinks moderate Muslims are creatures. That’s if they exist, of course. For all we know they could just be a figment of our imagination. Like the “War on Terror”.

Fleurette,

As you consider those disagee with you brain-washed, please explain what that means, before I regard you a liar (for calling me brain-washed), and prove in fact you are the one akin to being brainwashed.

9/11 is "wake-up call" to non-Muslims, like "nationlism"- a rallying call. But I do not need 9/11. I had known Islam for long time. You pre-supposed my attitudes. Such presupposition indicates you're predisposed to being brain-washed. Not a good sign!!

Your statement "...oppression breeds nationalism.....violence" is indicative of your narrow-mindedness. Much as you retract (by saying you oppose nationalism)... too late, as you had indeed implied a sense of sympathy towards suicide bombers.

In fact, to "retract" is worse. Because it makes you a hypocrite. Are you then disagreeable with Vietnam/India nationalism? Are you implying if nationalism is a driving force that expells US and Israeli from 'occupied lands' (which is what you agree with), nationalism is not a good thing?

Further, my rebuke "oppression breed nationalism" proved that you're not open-minded as you think. What about "oppression breeds stupidity"? Thought about this before, or know what I mean?

So your concept of "oppression" is a warped one, mixed with some global events, your little brain churns out cliche frauded in reasoning.

Worse, you lack ability to learn. logic tried to educate you on apartheid. But you simply repeated the same claim. Is this because you've been brain-washed to think in certain ways? Please explain why middle-eastern countries are not apartheid, based on your concept of apartheid applied to Israel?

But worst, you presumptuously put words in others mouth. This is insulting and annoying. Do you always expect others to correct what you suppose they think, and waste precious time?

Be sarcastic if you wish but show some intelligence by making correct logical statements when debating me because I expect NO LESS. Example, "Islam breeds terrorism" is logically true. But your statement "Islam=terrorism=world domination" is not even a correct logical statement. You think you can put such words in my mouth??

Fleurette – is English your native language? If not - the phrase ‘no such creature’ is not an insult, it is a common term used to express disbelief in the existence of something eg, moderate Muslims.

Re the ‘war on terror’. Since the War on Terror is a ‘figment of … imagination’, what measures do you think the West should take to combat Islamic extremism? How do you think the West should deal with Iran? Why should the West stay completely out of the Middle East when our economies are dependent on oil (for which we pay the oil leeches top dollar)?

I’m not surprised to see that your sole response consisted of trying to make it look as if I think Muslims are non-human by nitpicking one phrase. You have twisted yourself into knots trying to deny that terrorism is linked to Islam, when every head-chopping freak proclaims loud and clear that he acts in the name of Islam and is carrying out a jihad against the West and against the Jews. Nearly every person charged with terrorism offences is a Muslim, yet it has nothing to do with Islam?

Logic responded – ‘Israel is not an apartheid state and far less ethnocratic than Iran or Saudi Arabia.’

There are Muslim Arab members of the Knesset and they have their own media outlets; it is absurd to suggest that Israel is an ‘apatheid’ country. In Iran and Saudi Arabia, you would be persecuted for your religion and you would be arrested by the Religious Police if you dared to wear a cross or be found with a Bible. In fact, you would probably be arrested for even being outdoors without being covered from head to toe and escorted by a male. If caught alone with a male, you would be arrested and punished. None of these things would happen in Israel.

Think about what you are defending so blindly.