LOL, why on earth would debating you raise the intellectual calibre of the debate here on OLO?

I will however debate your claim to be able to write, think critically, chew gum and walk at the same time.

There is nothing original in your posts, the usual deployment of political correct arguments that are themselves right-wing politically correct, the use of racist innuendo, are all anti intellectual, and just plain juvenile. And you accuse me of being vague? Puleeze!

You implicitly know this when posters use cliché lines from television show like you have.

It never fails to amaze me how posters like you and Arjay think the whole world is reading what you write and applauding, that you are soldiers in some imaginary ideological war on-line, scoring points to God, Queen and country and Mr Howard.

I find these delusions both comical and sad as it reminds me of all those poor people who thought Pauline Hanson was going to deliver them evil, forever and ever, amen.

She didn’t and they’ve been wandering around forums like this looking for salvation ever since. Welcome to your world TNT, you’re lost, you’re inadequate and you’ve got Arjay for a mate.

There now, I've finished my post and you're about to read the rest of it instead of boycotting it like you said you would, but guess what?

You're now faced with a dilemma. Should you:

• reply with some more feeble invective and thus admit your boycotting of my posts was just a silly threat (because you ran out of clever(?)things to say..

• never reply and brood eternally because you don't what to appear to be an idiot in front of other posters here on OLO (again)

Over to you Einstein!

...
kartiya jim:

re sensitive matters, surely you'd agree that being non-PC, epsecially on matters Aboriginal, in unis can land you in hot water. I'll bet the overwhelming research on Aboriginal problems focuses on symptoms first, also on what others can do - often couched in vague, simplistic language - eg. 'a treaty', but very little emphasis on what they can do for themselves.

"The present government refuses to make separate Ministry to help Aboriginal People overcome their problems; this proves Howard and his National lackeys are hopeless"

Another govt dept? More Howard bashing? Heard it all before. Too simplistic. Don't buy it.

"saying Sorry for past injustices"

What exactly does 'sorry' achieve? sorry for what? how phrased? I suspect the sorry comes with strings attached. a legal land-mine? Saying sorry also does absolutely nothing to change the all important vitals. What tangible improvements do you think saying sorry would have for, say the Aborigines residing in the Todd River, Alice, often in a state of dilirium? Methinks none.

"and lack of an Internationally recognised Treaty"

treaty? with which group? the details? any thoughts? there never will be one while the Aborigines themselves are so divided. And, guessing, the more multicultural & global we become, the chances of a treaty will further diminish. We are increasingly made up of foreign born residents, & they will rightly ask: what's this treaty & apology thing with all the strings attached got to do with me?

"Many Aborigines... receive much less than they need to lift their basic health and education-vital ingredients for a fulfilling life."

Don't buy. If they spent the money they get wisely, no good reason why the vitals can't improve big time.

"All this neglect may make the "ostrich club" feel good "

All this neglect doesn't make anyone feel good. It's a blight. It's in everyone's interest for the Aborigines to become integrated into the global economy. I think the only 'ostrich club' out there is the one that thinks that by creating one more govt office, & spending more taxpayers hard-earned, that is the answer. A mirage.

TNT,
It's strange TNT that after complaining about University political correctness it would seem that you are toeing the Liberal and Nationals parties PC lines with your arguments .Nothing new or progressive .On some of your points...
No one in the Liberal or National parties would have the guts,statesmanship or integrity to put their hand up for an individual Aboriginal Affairs Ministry ,too hard for them .I feel sorry for Mal Brough who is bumbling along with no support .
A genuine apology from Howard would have helped Heal souls after the "Stolen Generations "report came out, however the rest of his party and the RED -neck Nationals would be looking down their noses at him.
As for the neglected alcohol affected people in the Todd river hearing his apology ,it just could be that they may like to hear it and be a bit less depressed .Howard's inability to say "Sorry" for obvious past injustices either produces anger, contempt or indifference in many Australians including the new ones that you somehow think arrive here without a conscience or values .
Howard is much happier organising war overseas rather than organising political and social peace with our own Aboriginal people. Even John Hewson recently said Howard was a failure with his feeble attempts at Aboriginal Reconciliation and will be recorded as such.He has let down a huge percentage of Australians.
I also find it amazing you would be so mean spirited in a country as rich as ours that you would deny Aboriginal Australians a Treaty that
would place them in the same position at least as the Mauris and American and Canadian Indigenous People .
Your fear of a legally binding Treaty that includes considerable Reparations, that may stand up in International Courts should not blind you to the Injustice that has been carried for 200 years on the shoulders of our Aboriginal Brothers and Sisters. Whingeing about the money and effort required to do the right thing is not acceptable in today's society, even yours.

kartiya jim

"It's strange that after complaining about University political correctness it would seem you are toeing the Liberal/Nationals parties PC lines with your arguments."

The common meaning of 'PC' is what is/ not acceptable to say in the general public arena, eg. MSM. Try saying Aborigines need to do more to help themselves on, say national tv, too controversial. Worse, the argument would likely be attacked, likely as 'racist'. Even worse, personal attacks. The result (& intention) of silencing them. Compare that to saying whites were to blame for the predicament of Aborigines. Totally different response. In fact par for the course in the MSM, especially uni's.

"No one in the Libs/Nats have the guts... to put their hand up for an individual Aboriginal Affairs Ministry."

Why would they want to if they don't see that as a solution to improving the vitals?

"A genuine apology from Howard would have helped Heal souls after the "Stolen Generations "report came out"

I (& many others) don't feel that this warranted an apology. I believe this policy was done with the best of intentions, given the appalling conditions many faced in their own communities (black & white). Now you could validly argue that these conditions were a result of past racism. But something had to done to put these children in an environment where they would not be further neglected. I would go along with an apology for having put these families in a situation where they were neglected, but not for intervening to do something about it.

"hearing his apology ,it just could be that they may like to hear it and be a bit less depressed."

OK

"Howard's inability to say "Sorry" for obvious past injustices either produces anger, contempt or indifference in many Australians including the new ones that you somehow think arrive here without a conscience or values."

At no stage did I say/imply that new arrivals were "without conscience or values". I said they would be reluctant to support a treaty or a 'sorry' if this meant plenty of strings attached......(continued next post)

(continued)...

Would be interesting nevertheless to do an online poll on these 2 things, with strings in full view. Think most would say no. Doubt that it will happen, too unsafe. I mean if polies on the left were confident of the outcome, I'm sure we would have had one by now.

"(Howard) has let down a huge percentage of Australians."

Again, like to see a poll. Remember the Tampa, where 95%+ Aussies (yes, all colour, race, culture, the left & right!) polled were in favour of Howard's actions. Don't be so sure of that 'huge percentage'.

"I also find it amazing you would be so mean spirited in a country as rich as ours that you would deny Aboriginal Australians a Treaty that would place them in the same position at least as the Mauris and American and Canadian Indigenous People."

No point in arguing for a treaty unless I can see the fine print. What would the terms? Would that treaty be acceptable to all indigneous groups? 'Treaty' is a pretty vague concept. What position exactly has a treaty placed the Mauris & indigneous Canadians in? John Pilger argues for a treaty along US lines. But they seem to be in a desperate situation on the reserves/casinos. Has that really worked? Apparently many are totally aimless & conveniently hidden from view. I would never want that as a long term solution for the Aborigines.

"Your fear of a legally binding Treaty that includes considerable Reparations, that may stand up in International Courts should not blind you to the Injustice carried for 200 years on the shoulders of our Aboriginal Brothers and Sisters."

No question about the historical injustice to the Aborigines. Where we disagree is the remedy. You say that throwing more $ at the problem & a 'treaty' is the way to go. I don't.

"Whingeing about the money and effort required to do the right thing is not acceptable in today's society, even yours."

Yes it is, if throwing $ at the problem has not worked so far. We need to try something different.

TNT,
You mentioned Aboriginal people being able to achieve similar levels of health if they spent their money wisely. The last report on Aboriginal incomes I saw gave them something like 60 to 65 % of our incomes .
With the cost of travel and living ,particularly in even the bigger towns in the bush and few doctors, they stand a very small chance of achieving similar health outcomes unless more money is spent.Their health is that bad the men live 17 years less than us.It is a shamefull state of affairs that I won't accept.
If you and that big % of other well off Australian voters you say are out there are happy with the Aboriginal levels of income and health, yet complain about more money being spent on programmes and the amount of taxes that are needed to help them help themselves, there will be continue to be more poor health and social outcomes and in the International Indigenous arena we will continue to be "on the nose" with our Government's seemingly indifferent attitude.
The Ostrich Club will roll on fuelled and fed by the popular press , but their indifference may well come under uncomfortable scrutiny if Howard's and Windschuttle's history classes ever get started.