The author says "If Indigenous Queenslanders enjoy the same citizenship rights as other Queenslanders".

Does that include the same legal and social obligations - not just "rights"? Does it include indigenous Queenslanders accepting that drinking is no excuse for dragging a 65 year old woman out of her car and bashing her in Mt Isa? Or the dozen other situations where we have seen Aborigines flouting the law over recent years with no charges ever laid against anyone? Does it include accepting that "grief" is no excuse for public arson, rioting and threatening the lives of police? Does it include Aborigines coming forward to lay complaints and testify in court against other Aborigines who rape, assault and destroy?

When Aborigines admit that it's not just a white problem but our problem, I'll be better prepared to listen to this kind of nonsense.

Dear Kevin
the symptoms you observe, i.e. Aboriginal criminality and bad behavior, are really symptoms, not a disease in itself.

If you ever have time, zip out to Cherbourg town, its also a mission, and discover the history of the place.
47 different aboriginal tribes were basically rounded up and sent there all together, and regimented into a concentration camp of identity execution, unable to practice any of their cultural norms due to the heavy mix of tribes, and restrictions from the Anglican Church which had a role in the place.
It was internment, and they could not even visit other areas of the reservation without a permit.

There was a bell for
-'no more children outside'
-'no more adults outside'
-'sleep'
-'wake up'
-'Work'
-'Church'

Put all this together and you have a recipe for "Ah what the hell, my life and our culture are down the toilet.. who am I anyway, I don't matter, and what I do doesn't really matter"

There is good news, in that the happiest, most well adjusted and progressive Aboriginals among them are those who have found Christ.
(as opposed to just being under the rule of the Church).. and they found Him through the work of the indigenous A.I.M. (Aboriginal Inland Mission) via Aboriginal Christians.

Some youth from our fellowship have just come back. It was heartwarming to see the love between even the older Aboriginals (Who would have lived through the previous hell) and them.

The Queensland government pulled out every bit of infrastructure in 1986 when they basically told them 'swim or sink' but swim ....with what ?

Aboriginals have some daunting barriers and wounds mate. But there is hope. (in Christ)

Kevin

I'm in agreement with the positive and progressive views of the writer. It is a credit he hasn't dwelt on the latest killing in custody.

It is a pity you haven't been able to form a view on those positive aspects of the article.

David

Are you on drugs? :-)

Thanks for your perceptive analysis Victor.

It's a timely reminder of the value of the 'Deaths in Custody' Royal Commission report, and the need for politicians to revisit this key document and actually implement the 339 thoughtful recommendations.

I agree with Victor that the DPP's decision in the Doomadgee v's Queensland Police case is critical to future relations. It has already had repercussions for the Attorney General in the Queensland Parliament. It will be reasoned arguments from indigenous leaders like Victor that Beattie needs to hear post the DPP's decision which I can likely see going against prosecution. Only by upping the political stakes on Beattie will Queensland's 'blackfellas' counter a judicial reversal. Having won another term, Beattie has no excuses for not coming out with a real reform package. First cab off the rank should be a just and generous stolen wages offer. Tasmania has shown the way in monetary compensation.

Hi All...
I dunno. I did a bit over 32 years in law enforcement (15+years in the Prison service; and 17 odd years with the police), and I would never, repeat never, recommend the prison/police force as a career to any young aspirant. In my relatively long experience, I have found that when dealing with some of these so called 'marginalized groups' in our society, the coppers are rarely right. And, when we are right, we're often accused of being 'procedurally' wrong. There's often a perception by some cohorts within these groups, that there's a substantial proclivity and willingness for police to harass, victimize, and unfairly harangue, some of these people.

Generally speaking, this percipience is false. The average copper does not have the time, energy, or will to engage in this pointless and negative activity. Sure there's empirical evidence, that some police have behaved in both an unacceptable, and in fact, an unlawful way. However, I would respectfully submit that these officers are the exception, and certainly not the rule.

I guess what I'm trying to say good people is:...that we ALL have to take responsibility for our OWN actions. We are often confronted with choices in life. It's up to us to make the correct choices. If we don't, we must PERSONALLY accept the consequences, then move on, and learn from it. Regrettably, we live in a world of the prodigious 'Excuse Industry'...It's NEVER our fault, it's ALWAYS the fault or failing of others ? School children are ever having this notion inculcated into their minds. As I said...I dunno ?
Kind regards to you all...Sung Wu.

o sung wu ,thanks for your knowledge .
However i believe making the "RIGHT CHOICES" on average, is so much easier when you have an Anglo /white educated background . Sooo.. much easier . kartiya .

Hi there Kartiya...
In principle, I'd probably agree with you with respect to having a white anglo-saxon upbringing/background. It would appear prima facie, that some of these so called marginalised groups legitimately don't fully understand or appreciate some of the more subtle nuances of proper standards of behaviour or conduct, that we apparently take for granted. I would assert however, that adults in all cultures, and the many societies contained therein, know the basic difference between right and wrong. I know very little of the events of Palm Island (only what I've seen and heard in the media). I understand that there was conduct of a kind that could only be described as lawless. Allegedly perpetrated by both sides. I don't know. But, I do sincerely believe that we ALL know when we're breaking the law. Especially in circumstances that apparently prevailed at Palm Island. We've got to stop making excuses for lawless behaviour per se. And we do have to accept personal responsiblity, for our own conduct and the choices we make. Until then, we'll never build those necessary 'bridges of understanding', between our two cultures.
Kind regards...O Sung Wu.

Kartiya,

I'm also from a Policing background some of which was in remote NSW in towns where blacks out weighted whites to the ration of 10:1 and where a population of 500 required 11 Police. You will never see this ratio of Police to Population in any other NSW town.

The education argument pops up regularly and to a certain extent I agree (along the line of O Sung Wu's - yes I suppose you would expect that, but hear me out). There is certainly no lack of resources for Aboriginal education, in fact the dollar per person for Aboriginal funding is vastly higher than that for 'any' other section of the community.

From what I've seen it is not the lack of opportunity, but the lack of will to be educated. Again it is an excuse that is used to conveniently absolve the Aboriginal from their basic responsibilities. I found that the culture to avoid education (and many other socially accepted practices) was encouraged by the elders in the area. So what hope do the young ones have? Bugger all.

I think a lot more effort needs to be put in by the educated Aboriginals to educate the uneducated of them. It is not just the governments problem. The government provides the facilities and it is up to the individual to use them or not.

You can't say its not prossible for Aboriginals to get education as you and many other can attest to that.

Quiggley,

Your post simply re-inforces the point Victor Hart made. You are just 'Blaming blackfellas for their lot'.

You've also made an illogical argument. Firstly an assumption police practices are always correct and fair. Then you've attempted to blame indigenous people for not educating themselves ... to be just like 'us'.

Yep you would definitely have a policing background.

Just down the road from me is Brisbane's largest concentration of Police. Does that mean my locale has more crime than other areas?
Do the Police think I'm prone to crime? You see I've only had education to year 12, drink whiskey, am loud on occassion and have attributes so unlike others?

Why is the road to sense and understanding so torturous?

Thanks for this temperate and well-balanced article, Victor. It's very telling that, despite the Royal Commission recommendations and numerous reports since, little has changed in Qld Police culture in its interface with Indigenous people. This is attested to by the justificatory, victim-blaming posts above by a couple of ex-law enforcement types.

It also beggars belief that the police thug who, according to the Coroner, caused Mulrunji's death has thus far avoided any significant consequences, yet the entire Palm Island community has been effectively indicted by Beattie & Co for their understandable response.

Nice to see that OLO's resident crusader-in-chief has belatedly discovered that people at Cherbourg are still seriously disadvantaged by the institutionalised thuggery imposed upon them by both the state and the 'Christian' missions, but if he was to dig just a little bit deeper he would discover that this pattern of Indigenous-Colonial relations was replicated all over the country - notably at Palm Island.

Quiggley, It is interesting you say that where you were some of the elders were against education. This is against their natural inclination as traditionally they spent years getting their oral cultural knowledge degrees .Some went on to be as A P Elkin called them "Aboriginal Men of High Degree".These were people that had an enormous amount of knowledge of their Culture. Something is wrong-just could it be OUR ATTITUDE .
The Maoris ,with the benefit of a Treaty have been going to University for 100 years and producing their own doctors .It's all to do with respect for difference .The New Zealanders did it -we MUST too to humanise AND HEAL Australia's psyche as a nation.
One should remember that the historically often violent contact between white policemen and Aboriginal People has been generally anything but conducive to good race relations . White ,and on many occasion black policemen upheld Racist WHITE LAW - Laws of Dispossion , that was their job.
They have had very little time and very little help from Governments to calm the waters to date .

"You've also made an illogical argument. Firstly an assumption police practices are always correct and fair."

Hi Keith,

I don't know where you got this from, because if you read my post I make no mention of Police practices.

I can't comment on why there is the largest population of Police in Qld just down the road from you. Maybe it's a head office of sort, maybe it is a high crime area, maybe it's a training facility so therefore there appears to be lots of Police around all the time. I must be mistaken but I thought the public wanted lots of Police around, most are complaining to the government that there aren't enough.

The problem with the native blacks is that they are spoilt. Free education no matter how much you earn, get another government supplied residence after destroying it, allowed to hide behind bleeding heart policies to kill endangered animals such as the dugong, and more.

When a government actually does something that will help you, all we hear is, "white fella knows best". Do nothing, get attacked. Help out, get attacked.

The fact is that no white person forced the native blacks to riot. You did this yourselves and were helped out when a senior government minister of the Beattie government gave immunity to someone who was encouraging violence against white people.

I hope blacks never take control of our governments because they prove themselves on a world wide basis, ATSIC included, that they can't run a government without pushing people into extreme despair due to tribal hatred.

Don't blame the white man for the criminal behaviour, blame yourselves. It's called, self-responsibility.

On the other side of the coin, I live in Central Queensland where there is ofcourse, a number of Aboriginals.

When I first moved here, I camped along the river while looking for somewhere to live so I could move up the rest of my family. During this time, I did see something disturbing when it came to police and Aboriginals.

I had been watching the Aboriginals who liked to sit in a large circle under the trees for shelter from the intense heat. They were not drinking or using drugs. I found them friendly and invited me to sit with them but I was busy finding a home so I had to refuse.

Walking back to my campsite one day, the police who were talking them, what looked like harrassment to me, completely ignored me until a few of the Aboriginals said hello to me. As soon as I received a 'hello' from the Aboriginals, the police officers then began questioning on what I was doing, wanting to know why I was walking past, where I lived.

Really, is this necessary?

I think it is wonderful that the Internet can join us mob together to discuss this topic. I find it hard to see where we would be able to do so without more tension. Regardless the points I wish to raise as an Indigenous person are:
1. IF we generalise, we run the risk of making assumptions of everyone...meaning, the author in broad in his enclusion of all police haiving the same mind set towards Indigenous people. Although an element of officers harbour racist beliefs and actions, some are open minded and flexible (like the few in the forum). By generalising we also include the small but effective Indigenous officers in the force that are burdened with strange feelings at present (Culture and Job thoughts)

2. Blame needs to fall where it should. If people do wrong then they should face the outcomes, but let us not take the historical context out of this exercise on justice. Their have been 220 years of excuses as to why it was OK to overtake, destroy and live off Indigenous country. The failure to address the treaty process will forever create a power imbalance. Let's get that in order and enforce the 339 recommendations as well as other policies designed to improve Indigenous life outcomes.

Thanks,

Tell me Quiggley do you know why the police required such numbers in that remote town?

It is not more police but effective policing that many people want. Less traffic hounds and more effective policing where the daily petty crime, that effects many of us, is involved.

That also probably applies in that outback town you mention.

But you know 2deadly is spot on. It is great we can chat, generalising is not the proper way to discuss anything, and many lessons of the past don't seem to have been learned very well at all in the area of policing. Especially in areas were there are concentrations of indigenous people

Hi there 'Quiggley'...Yes indeed, I do believe I know of the town in Western NSW to which you refer. My wife and I were 'ordered' from the main street of the town (we were both on Annual Leave) by a group of Koories. Not wanting to cause any trouble or generate any further antagonism by our presence, we promptly left. They did not know I was a 'jack'. Simply a couple of white fifty + year olds, having a bit of a look, at an historic NSW country town.

To: (a) C.J. Morgan; and (b) Keith...

I'm simply trying to illustrate, that unacceptable behaviour or physically aggressive conduct, should not be tolerated for a moment. Notwithstanding who the perpetrater/s is/are. Further, I do agree with 'Quiggley', that specialized educational resources should be considered, which are culturally specific by design. Some twenty odd years ago I was required to attend a 'Koorie' workshop. There, a number of exceptionally erudite Koorie educators, spent four days giving the police attendees , a broad appreciation of their culture, and the difficulties confronting their own people (mainly young folk), with the extraordinarily convoluted relationships, they necessarily had to endure with police.

I believe no real gains can be made, by pursuing the 'blame game'. As one intellectual giant once exclaimed..."don't give me the problem - give me the solution"...!

Kind regards...O Sung Wu.

PS: A little secret...I've never been much of a fan of acadamics or theorists. It's so easy to 'engineer' so called solutions, from the dusty confines of a little office, deeply ensconced in some remote University.

Hi Keith,

In answer to your question why there were/are so many Police in this town is because that many are needed.

I'll be honest with you Keith, effective Policing in this town, at least the way I think you mean, simply was not possible. I lost count of the number of 'do gooders' that came to this town with great ideals of making change (and the best intentions), only to leave days/weeks later with their tails between their legs, driven out by the community themselves.

Some of the more serious problems in this town and I dare say they are similar to many a town were; alcohol and drug abuse, violence as a whole but domestic violence in particular and one that was rampant but never spoken about, and that was child assault, both physical and sexual. Please don't think I'm trying to inflame this discussion or habour a dislike for Aboriginals, because it wouldn't be true.

Alcohol and drug abuse is a well know problem in Aboriginal communities. Violence is also pretty well know, especially as a result of the first two problems. Violence and Domestic violence in this community at least was not only accepted practice, but encouraged by a vast majority of the community.

The problem that I think is far more serious (physical and sexual assault of children), was simply ignored by the community and thus implicitly condoned. Numerous attempts were made to raise and address these issues by Police and Education personnel, but every time it was raised we were called racist and told to mind our own business as it had nothing to do with us.

So I think you can see why I say 'effective' policing of this town was not possible. All we as Police could do was clean up the aftermath and arrest the offender. I don't know how many times I was called to a Domestic assault, usually by the female, only to be set upon by her when she became aware that we were going to arrest 'her man'.

Um I think I missed something here.

Some posts are saying that people should be responsible for their actions.

Too True!

It is no good blaming others.

The copper that beat Cameron Doomagee to death is responsible for his actions.

Copper Hurley has the privelege of 'Whiteness', and education, and had the status of power.

He IS very clearly resposible for his actions. He should have been charges and held in custody as soon as the coroners report was handed down.

To the posts that attempt to blame Cameron for his own death,
this is too pathetic and reinforces the point that the article was making.

The (ex)coppers amongst the post adequately demonstrate the negative bias that the police have for Indigenous Australians.

Scary stuff.

"The (ex)coppers amongst the post adequately demonstrate the negative bias that the police have for Indigenous Australians....Scary stuff."

Why is it acceptable and correct for you to jump to conclusions but uneducated, abhorrent and dare I say racist if anyone else does? Is it just because they disagree with you, or is there some factual basis for your opinion?

I'm in no way condoning certain behaviour by certain Police over the years, but do the actions of a few make us all like that? If so then surely the actions of a few Aboriginals make 'you' all like them? What a stupid, uneducated and ill informed statement.

This is the sort of blatant bias I've run into over many years. You do yourself and your cause no favours by adopting such a stance.

I note that, while Quiggley and o sung wu have made valuable comments from the law enforcement side of this debate, they have both remained silent on the vital issue of the disparate treatment, on the one hand, of the policeman who has been found by the Coroner to have brought about the death in custody that directly sparked the Palm Island riot, and on the other of the alleged participants in that riot.

As I recall, the police union stridently attacked the Coroner for making such a finding. Is this just more of the same old police culture of protecting their own in the face of strong evidence of probably criminal behaviour? Seems like not all that much has really changed since the good old days of Joh, Lane and Lewis.

Quiggley

So who determinded the number that was needed and what was the basis for their decision?

Effective policing where I reside would be a greater deterant for petty crimes ie higher solving and arrest rates for petty crimes such as break and enter and less emphasis on traffic breaches. I can't comment on what effective policing would be in that small country town but I think like me the local people would probably be more aware of what was needed. My point is if you were told to buggar off in relation to domestic's perhaps you were being told that your 'effective policing' wasn't. You know, today in parts of Queensland,there are much more edffective ways of dealing with public drunkeness, and domestic violence, than the traditional police practise.
In white communities such things still exist and the police practise in dealing with them is acceptable to the community. I don't think just shifting the same practise to small indegenous communites could be similarily effective or suitable and acceptable to the communities involved.
It seem from all accounts the problem of policing child sexual abuse in white communities suffered from a similar lack of transparency...especially in our churches and schools.

And your atitudes so openly displayed here do show you seem to not understand the nature of the policing problems indigenous people experience and protest.

I hope this little missive helps. It is critical I know but the attitude you've displayed is the one that has been on display within police forces for many years and many facets of it were still and especially evident in the latest killing in custody in Queensland.

Keith

To AKA...

I've read and re-read you piece, and have come to the conclusion that any logical discussion with you on this matter, would essentially be unproductive. You've apparently engaged in the spurious notion that police are unanswerably to the law. That is simply nonsense. It's been stated herein, the matter is now before the coroner. The coroner will decide on the specifics of where culpability lies, absolutely. There are more auditory processess of police, in the discharge of their duties, then any other occupation or vocation in the country. AKA, walk a shift or two, in my boots. How would you handle crime, that has been perpetrated by Koories? Soooo easy to level criticism from afar. But unlike you apparently, I have a far more sanguine view of the future, with respect to mutual understanding between Koories and Law Enforcement, in this country.

In my experience, critics of the police have very little understanding or appreciation of the complex issues, confronting contemporary policing of some of these more marginalized folk. Nor are most coppers biased, or misanthropic toward others. The average copper has enough worries, just trying to cover their posteriors, from our bosses. Remember good people, we all bleed when we're cut...it's as simple as that.
Kind regards...O Sung Wu.

Sung wu

That coroner after nearly two years laid responsibility for the man's death squarely at the feet of Senior Sargent Hurley.

No arrests have been made and no charges laid. Why do you think, after two years, that is the case?

The initial Police investigation cleared Senior Sargent Hurley of any blame for the man's death. They found it was the result of an unfortunate accident. No inquiry into that 'investigation' nor any auditory proceess has been proposed or instigated.

Why do you think, after two years, that is the case?

At the publishing of the Coroners report the Police were up in arms. The police union publicly claimed Hurley was innocent and the Coroner's enquiry was a witch hunt.

Privately police were saying any charges laid on Hurley would see an end to them policing indigenous settlements.

Like to suggest why genuine Police allowed those things to go uncriticised?

Would truly unbiased and genuine police have tried to cover Hurley's asse?

Hello there Keith...
At my first 'Post' I did say that I personally, had very little knowledge of the events and subsequent consequences arising out of the Palm Island affair. That said, and assuming the facts that you've sought to provide, are substantially correct... I must state, that the substantial delay between the result, and any recommondations articulated in the coroners findings, is indeed puzzling. Further, you state that the coroner recommended that a Sergeant of Police be charged with murder... And; you further allege, that to date, no action, to this end, has yet commenced... I cannot offer you any explanation. However,the preferral of any charges, lays squarely within the aegis of the DPP. Perhaps, the DPP in their wisdom, cannot establish the criminal proofs? Or the actual Mens rea (criminal intent) is obscured, or difficult to establish? Keith, I really don't know. But please, DO NOT harbour antipathy toward police in general. Sure, in every industry you occasionally run across misfits. Coppers, are simply ordinary members of society, trying to bring-up a family, and meet their obligations to their creditors, as we all do. Gee Keith, we really cop it sometimes, and often the communication 'logjam' is way way beyond our control. I know I've not satisfied your enquiry. But I've tried. I was once told that..."a copper is the first person you want to see when in trouble, but the last person you'd want to have a drink with"... Kind regards... O Sung Wu.

o sung wu , when one looks at our police /Aboriginal conflicts over the last 200 years the police to my knowledge have invariably got their man or woman one way or another -sometimes with terrible results for many Indigenous people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time .
I know times have changed for the better but this looks very Bad and needs resolving in a just way .I can only hope the historic "blind eye " on Aboriginal deaths is not being seen again .

First, Quiggley... Not sure of your statement stating that Indigenous education receives more funding. send me evidence of this and I'll believe it.

Secondly, 'O sung Wu'... you first spoke of an 'excuse industry' and that we need to remove ourselves from under it. I certainly agree with you but our police leaders and politicians (hard to tell them apart at times) need to do the same first.

It was terrible to see that Hurley and his lawyer made the decision to stand down, a pure example of the tail wagging the dog.

Why is it that we all see and know there are major problems within 'some' Indigenous communities, regardless of location, and we don't address them as a nation. Meaning that we sit back and say that Aboriginal people need to fix themselves.

However when the farming community is affected by harsh issues such as drought we agree that the federal and state governments 'should' step in and, seeing that we just do so, our vote-needy politician administer aid packages immediately.

Before you jump on me with a 'but this is environmental based outcomes and they had no choice where Aboriginal people created their own problems,' how many warnings and efforts to create more sustainable and environmentally appropriate ways must a country be encouraged to follow before they realise that we live in a drought ridden, dry, minimal top soil nation.

Yet we never inject adequate funding (yes the buckets of money and free house are fake, if they were true then I would have them instead of the usual debt) into solving these intergenerational issue of housing, unemployment and education.

Why are some people in our community allowed to benefit from excuses (some police officers, farmers, politicians, professional sportspeople) while Indigenous Australians are told to live with the outcomes.

As someone who knows of Victor's work ethic, he is not someone sitting is a little office reading all the time, he is very community based and active in education and justice groups. Come to think of it are either of you on your local Indigenous justice group?

o sung wu, Quiggley,
I note you take umbrage at my comments and understand that you may not have been aware of the coroner's findings.

I realise that coppers have a difficult role in society, they are damned if they do or damnded if they don't.

However, Cameron Doomagee did not cause his liver to be torn almost in two.

It appears that your talk of people taking responsiblity for their actions applies to others. I merely suggested that Hurley is made to take responsibility for his actions.

In NQ this inequity is difficult to take.

Murri people have taken heart that justice might occur with the findings of the coroner but they are so conscious of the fact that the rioters were jailed immediately to await trial.

Hurley was given office duties AND IS STILL NOT CHARGED WITH ANYTHING! (easy to verify from news reports)

I would like to state that my name on OLO is Aka , meaning grandmother, not AKA meaning Also Known As.

Further to this I have been married to an excopper for 25years.

I believe it is time for justice to be available to everyone.

It does no-one any good to see coppers appear to continue to expect to be above the law.

Hi Sung wu

Mate I must say in my life I have often found trouble. From my experience when those troubles have arisen, I've got to say, the very last person I'd liked to have seen was a policeman. ;-)

So much to address and so little resources. And it doesn't just apply on this forum either.

OK. To the first question by Keith on Police staffing levels in the town that I worked in. I can't fully answer your question as I'm not privy to the formula (and there is one) that determines staffing levels. But I can tell you that we often needed everyone of them. Firstly the town is some 200Km from the next town, which happens to also be a 24 hr station, so of course any arrests that resulted in bail being refused, which is quite common with repeated domestic violence offenders and/or breaches of AVOs, then they had to be taken there. We worked 8 hours shifts there, so basically if we got an arrest as above, processed the person, conveyed them to the 24 hr station and returned, we had done our 8 hr shift. So while we were tied up if anything else happened, additional Police had to be called out. I think you can see that it wouldn't take long to utilise all of the 11, two of which were supervisors, quite quickly.

Also not all 11 were available at the one time, you have training, court, sick, leave, officers transferring in and out etc, so realistically you never had more than about 7 available at one time.

Sometimes we needed all 7 because of brawls that would occur from time to time. 7 Police is not many when you could be facing 100 or so less than friendly people. It was the case that we often called for more, but were turned down. I think you get the idea anyway.

So I suppose it based on a combination of remoteness and workload.

As for the Hurley situation. Again I don't know all the details, but I've read what you have all said. I suppose you have to understand the legal system, what the Coroner suggests is based on all the available evidence as he is not governed by the same rules of evidence as criminal courts. The logic being that the Coroner should be able to get the to the truth of a matter no matter what.

Then the same evidence put before him, minus the evidence that would not be allowed into a criminal matter, is reviewed by the DPP and it is on this evidence alone that they must decide whether or not there is a good likelihood that a criminal charge would be proved.

I have seen instances where in the Coroners court what happened and who is to blame were very clear, however when looking at the brief that was left after taking into account the rules of evidence, the matter was not so clear. Maybe this is one of those matters, I just don't know.

If he is guilty and it can be proved, then by all means charge him. As you point out, Police are not above the law, but neither should Police be treated differently to everyone else under the law. Maybe this is one of those cases where the bady gets away? I know it's not good, but it happens, a lot.

I think it has been said, but Police have more watch dogs than any other profession in history. Do you know that the DPP have a special section devoted to 'just' prosecuting Police and no one else, and believe me, they do not do us any favours. I know this from first hand experience.

I think what I find difficult is the over simplification of a very complex, difficult and emotive subject. I don't know the whole picture and I think it safe to say that no one on this forum does either. So lets not jump to ill informed conclusions.

Quiggley,

Here is the link to the coroners report, it may help us all make informed decision. Having read it several times it opened my eyes to a degree of reality in this case.

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/courts/coroner/findings/mulrunji270906.pdf

My frustration is aimed at the Governments because of the aftermath. The death was tragic but consider that in the two years since the death in custody, the Doomadgee family has been left with no explanation and support to cope with this horrific incident. Subsequently, his Mother passed away not knowing what happened to her son and Mulrunji's son committed suicide.

Secondly, once the Tactical Response moved in, many children have been traumatised with masked Officers raiding homes at will. What justice and sense of normality will they have? What will they think of Police for the next 40 years of their lives.

The Government over reacted in the response to the burning down of the police station and under-reacted at every other incident in this case.

Of course this is emotional but when you witness to different treatment handed out by police you can't help but hope for justice to occur, for us...at least once. I personally have been harassed by people whenever I have been confronted by them. The only positive interaction I have had has been with those Indigenous ones in the force, I know of 5 young guys and one female. Yet I continue to see different degrees of service. For example, in one night I witnessed (at 5pm) a police officer picking up a homeless Aboriginal man and throw him in the back of a police sedan, he then kicked the man 4 times as the man was unconscious. About six hours later at a service station, I saw two officers help a huge (at least 100kg) passed out white guy into their car and drive him home, all the while saying, "we'll look after you big guy."

Sadly, I agree with you Quiggley, I think Hurley will get off and I await this outcome and the response from the Indigenous community.

What do you want society to do? While packing up and leaving would be what Jesus would likely do, it isn't going to happen.

I don't think politicians just blame Aboriginals, the problem is so large, it seems so hard to deal with.

I grew up in a poor area, and had older brothers who were best mates with an Aboriginal guy. He didn't have any of the anger that many have, but still ended up in prison after doing stupid things. His family were decent people, his parents didn't drink, but the communal nature of Aboriginies meant there were always dozens of relatives living in the house, bad influences on him from older uncles.

There are so many things that can be done though to fix the problem, with politics, scare campaigns about stolen generations getting in the way.

Surely the lives of children in such situations should be paramount? Who says one loses their culture if they become like us?

What is Aboriginal culture anyway? Isn't it allowed to change over time, adapt, like European culture does?

The Jews have done it successfully, to live in modernisation, yet remain true to who they are.

I think there is too much anger among Aboriginal leaders, and let's be honest, racism. Many Aboriginals hate all white people, as if we are to blame for their nation being taken.

In one way, it's better it was us and not some closer culture that don't acknowledge their indigenous people. Most don't even know that Japan has indigenous people!

Aboriginals have so much opportunity now, more than any of us, it's just that the family situation needs to change. But this can't happen unless the kids are taken.

As sad as it is, what is needed is a whole generation of kids to be brought up in stable homes, whether by white or Aboriginal parents, so they can lead stable lives.

G'day to Keith & AKA...
I've read with interest the import of AKA, and the fact that you've been married to an ex-copper for 27 years...you have my profound commiserations, AKA ! Just joking of course. And Keith, you sound bitter and resentful toward police per se ? ..."if I were in trouble, or when I was in trouble, a copper was the last person I'd wish to see"...! I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess there'd be nothing I could say or do, to alter your perception of police.

In answer to someone's comment/question, apropos the events of 'Palm Island'...If the 'Sergeant of Police' has committed a crime, he should be charged. And if convicted, appropriately punished. Conversely, any Koorie that has committed an offence, he/she should also be charged, and upon conviction, appropriately punished as well.

A further comment/question was also put. In relation to the apparent delay of the commencment of any action, that had been recommended by the coroner...I'd have to simply re-affirm what 'Quiggley' stated; and his explanation of the processess of the DPP. I'd have absolutely no idea why the Sergeant in question, has not yet been dealt with. Particularly if the coroner is of the view that the Sergeant does have a case to answer.

However, I repeat what 'Quiggley' said inter alia, NOBODY is above the law. Believe me, coppers are monitored very closely. Even to the extent that some even have to declare and furnish their private financial position. And during most Internal Investigations, the police member is COMPELLED to answer questions. There are many other conditions (peculiar to), that are only imposed upon the police. And, none of which are imposed upon the general public. One more 'little' thing, a copper can't simply resign when he/she feels like it, either. They can be held for (depending on the State) up to three (3) months duration, and longer if internal (disciplinary/criminal) proceedings are pending.

Kind regards...O Sung Wu.

O Sung Wu

It is so sad you couldn't accept the humour in my statement.

You're right though, your partial quote of me does confirm you and, if you are representative, police do have narrowly focused outlooks.


Have you ever received a speeding Ticket?

O Sung Wu,

You've nissed the point entirely.

If you or I had caused the death of someone following a fight, we'd be arrested and charged almost immediately. There would be no need of a Coroner to make any suggestion to anyone...it would already have been done by the investigating Police.

Just not the case here...was it?

Hi Keith...
Sadly, I didn't miss the point old man. Further, I'd suggest that neither you or I, are in possession of all the facts apropos the circumstances surrounding the unfortunate death of the Koorie gentleman. If any culpability had been established, contemporaneous with that death, then the person responsible would indeed, have been arrested and charged. The protracted delay, must highlight to all and sundry, that the circumstances are such, that make it difficulty for proceedings to commence. It has been previously explained herein, the process that is followed by the DPP. Why is there a delay? I really don't know. And may I respectfully suggest Keith, neither do you.

As you appear to be an ardent critic of police procedure, it would indeed be nice for you and your cohorts, to explain and demonstrate, how better we could or should do our jobs. Especially in similar circumstances, where significant violence is offered by these destructive groups.

It's so easy to criticise from the position of hindsight. Coppers who are simply trying to do their level best to keep the lid on some violent confrontation. Personally, I've had the misfortune to have been involved in many such instances, and it's certainly not pleasant, believe me!

Cheers...O Sung Wu.

o sung wu

Laddie, your condescending attitude only causes alienation among the great unwashed. Is your attitude one of common police?

Unfortunately for you, however the Coroner clearly answers your question about how things could have been done better. She also knows all the facts and I'd take her word, even if the police don't agree and say she was merely on a witch hunt.

You along with every other policeman who have shown support, either explicitly or otherwise, for that senior sargent should read both her report and the recommendations of that fairly old but unhappily unapplied report into Deaths in Custody.

It is quite clear from those that had a proper police investigation been undertaken in the first place, along the lines as suggested in those reccommendations, then charges would have been laid. Now why weren't those reccommended procegures instigated and applied? How can you defend the inaction of police in that regard?

Your whineing about and slurring me and my criticism rings hollow with those questions in mind.

All you are doing is the same old thing that has been done for generations. Excusing the police action and inaction and defending an alleged criminal participant involved in a violent death, simply because he is a policeman.
Why are you doing that?
Surely you must, being a policeman, understand it is not up to the police to judge who is innocent or guilty. Isn't their job to investigate without fear or favour and present the facts for testing in the courts ... as soon as possible?

'Why wasn't that done?', I asked. You responded nobody knows and suggested that I'm merely habitually critical of police action.

Bloody wrong, and you must see how you've exposed your blind eye.

I say to you without respect open both of your eyes and your mind when/if you finally get around to reading that Coroner's Report, her findings and recommendations.

Hi Keith...
You're so sure of yourself. You apparently know what's in my heart and mind? I've explained to you quite clearly, that I do not know the circumstances surrounding the alleged mis-conduct/criminal behaviour of the particular Sergeant to whom you refer. Your persistance in pursuing a particular event, of which I have only a fundamental appreciation, is both pointless and derisory. Is it just me, or all police, that you harbour such blatant antipathy towords ?

Also, you appear to represent the total antithesis of mature debate, particularly when you've been informed, (several times) that neither I, nor the other police correspondent herein, is in possession of all the facts. As I've already stated, ad nauseam. Further, it would appear prima facie, that you seem to have a certain 'poverty in your arguement', as you will not acknowledge, what has previously been put to you? OK, that being the case, I'll simply accept your criticism of me, and my former profession, and quietly move on.

In closing, you've implied that the police protect and look after themselves, and their kind. Well, I'm here to tell you, that there is perhaps no other vocation in the country, that is so closely scrutinized, as the policing industry. It really is a case of...'Quis custodiet ipsos custodes'... (Who guards the guards)?

Well, that's me done Keith ! Kind regards - O Sung Wu.

PS...Was it your face we saw amongest the crowd, that threw the paint over our CO, when we were 'welcomed' home from Vietnam? Just wondering, that's all.

Yesterday upon the stair
I saw a man who wasn’t there.

He wasn’t there again today
Oh how I wish he’d go away.

O sung wu, I really didn't want to bring it up but i will any way .
Did you see that energetic policeman's beautiful knee - drop into that skinny, old, homeless and depressed [lost his wife to cancer 3 years ago] bloke's ribs, arm or kidneys tonight in Brisbane. Bad lad -didn't obey the order to move on .
Was not a good look O sung wu.

Hi there K. Jim...
No I didn't. You say the incident happened tonight? Was it shown on TV this evening, and did it appear that the unfortunate chap was resisting in some way? And, from what you saw, do you believe it may have been an accident? Or was there some actual violence offered by the homeless chap? Jim, heavens I dunno. If it happened, as you say it happened, and I have no reason to doubt you, then I reckon the Qld. coppers may have a problem.

To all you good folk, I do not have the answers. I can only comment with some accuracy, in matters which I've been directly involved. I know that I'll be absolutely howled down. But, I must again say, that the average copper simply wants to do his job. And get through his shift, without being injured, with the minimum amount of fuss and trouble. So he may pick up his pay every fortnight, and have a beer or two with his mates. This does NOT answer all your allegations. As I've said, I simply DO NOT have all the facts. I was merely trying to offer an opinion for the police. Any police officer, who breaks the law, should be charged. And, upon conviction, should be punished. Goodnight all. O Sung Wu.

O Sung Wu

Your final word seemed to be way off point again.

Remember in a previous post you asked.

'...it would indeed be nice for you and your cohorts, to explain and demonstrate, how better we could or should do our jobs. Especially in similar circumstances, where significant violence is offered by these destructive groups.'

I responded by pointing to the Deaths in Custody and the Coroner's reports. Both had specific recommendations as to how police could do their jobs better in similar circumstances.

I also suggested you read the Coroner's report. That would acquaint yourself with the details of the latest death.

You've totally ignored both comments and yet you are crictcal of me for having poverty in my argument.

'Accept the criticism ...and quietly move on' ... while changing
nothing.

That's exactly what police forces in this country have done since the Deaths in Custody inquiry.

That indeed is a remarkably accurate epithet O Sung Wu.

O sung wu, The video footage from a security camera was shown either on the ABC news or the 7.30 report or SBS news. Even the qld olice minister was taken aback.The footage was clear and there was also some recorded conversation .
The person involved is taking it further. They had an interview with him .
I will try to find it .It will do nothing for your day.
I happen to believe that police have a very difficult job at times ,but excessive use of force is where they can let the side down and sets a very bad example unfortunately .

Hello there K. Jim...
Again, I must say that I didn't see the incident to which you refer.
And I would suggest, that most coppers are acutely aware of issues of 'excessive force'. In my time I've had to answer allegations of over zealous behaviour in quite a number disturbances. Including...'staring with malevolence' at a woman (who was abusing me and others) during an incident outside a Macca's. As a consequence of my 'malevolent stare' (with intent), I received a 'Direction' from Internal Affairs to explain my 'Unprofessional Conduct'. Particularly in the presence of my subordinates !? Beats me! K. Jim it's not hard to get into trouble in the job. At the end of some shifts, you're still banging away on the Olivetti in order to answer some vexatious complaint against you, or your patrol.

I agree with you entirely, apropos police using ANY unnecessary force. And you're correct in saying that it's not a good look. It's hard enough doing your job as it is, without adding any self inflicted burden, unnecessarily.
Cheers...O Sung Wu.

hello o sung wu, the brisbane homeless man arrest story can be found at www.theaustralian.news.com.au cheers kartiya.

Hi there K. Jim...
Thanks for the reference you cited. I did read it, and I must admit that on this occasion it would appear to have been a heavy handed response by police. Police Minister Spence even described the method of arrest as ..."dreadful"... The necessity of four police to effect an arrest of a 65 yo. pensioner, seems prima facie, to be excessive.

You also mentioned that you saw TV footage (ABC/SBS?) of the actual arrest. Was Brendon ROWE engaged in any resistive conduct? Sometimes, it is far safer to utilize an arrest tactic using more police, rather then less (one grasping a limb each). But, the weight of opinion seems to support your assertion that excessive force was used. In any event, Mr ROWE stated that he was going to proceed against the Police Department for using unreasonable force. I'd be interested to see how he goes.

I notice that Minister Spence, made no apology for the so called tough stance the Govt. has taken on issues of anti-social behaviour (street offences). Who knows what's in the minds of our Pollies? I suppose it's a case of the respective governments, making the bullets, and the coppers firing them ? Thanks again K. Jim. Cheers...O Sung Wu.

What this fella said

This article is typical of what comes out of universities. It is highly critical of everyone but the Aborigines (surprise, surprise), broadbrushing an entire group of people (eg. "Queensland police personnel who harbour a deep hate for Aboriginal peoples "). In so doing it does what the author himself decries: the practice of oversimplifying issues and putting people into categories. The article is also totally vague, eg. "the need to create a more dynamic and representative political interface between the grassroots and government. This would ensure policy can become informed as well as accountable". Only a uni lecturer could come up with such meaningless nonsense. Why do they phrase things like this? Because if the language is vague & non-specific, this makes the author totally immune from criticism himself. His 'solutions' cannot be faulted because they are impossible to implement in the first place as they are so totally lacking in specifics.

OK, he says we need to implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission. Great. But what does the author see as the key recommendations of those 339? Come one Mr Uni Lecturer, don't be so lazy. Inform us on the topic you are writing about...if you can. If you genuinely want to help solve the problem, let's see in black & white (sorry) in crystal clear language exactly what you recommend. Get out of you ivory tower and get down to reality.

There was one thing he got right. "we need to address the root causes (of Aboriginal community problems)." He doesn't tell us what they are, however. I suspect the answer to that question may be far too politically incorrect. We are not yet ready to hear the answer. And so problems will continue to fester, helping to delay giving Aborigines the tools needed to integrate into the modern, global world we all live in.

Well someone should do a study of what Aborigines and their quarter brothers add to our national economy as opposed to the social security benefits they extort from the rest of us.Really it is just conscience money for a culture that is almost extinct.Vikings and Romans invaded England.There was no special considerations for differences in race.People just got on with life.

I will gladly pay taxes for those traditional people who are having a go,but not for my nine tenths Anglo brothers who just want a free ride.

Arjay, I'm surprised. While we have had our differences I did not expect you to stoop to such a low level of comment.

TNT, it seems from the tone and logic of your post that no matter what this author writes, or his personal and professional knowledge of these issues, you'll never be satisfied.

A pity the both of you don't have the intestinal fortitude to publish a piece here on OLO so you can be as publicly accountable for your opinions as this author is.

But this would be asking for the impossible from a pair of cowards wouldn't it.

Rainier writes:

"Arjay, I'm surprised. While we have had our differences I did not expect you to stoop to such a low level of comment."

Vague & condescending. Much like the article's author.

"TNT, it seems from the tone and logic of your post that no matter what this author writes, or his personal and professional knowledge of these issues, you'll never be satisfied."

More vague stuff.

"A pity the both of you don't have the intestinal fortitude to publish a piece here on OLO so you can be as publicly accountable for your opinions as this author is."

Hello! This is a forum, where hopefully opinions other than simply the PC line are accepted. As a forum, these opinions can be held to account. I think they call it 'debate', where, by using logic, ridiculous arguments are made to look just that - ridiculous. I think by "publicly accountable", you mean, publicly lampooned, attacked & silenced. And it doesn't take "intestinal fortitude" to toe the PC line. Any fool can do that. A non-PC opinion requires far more "intestinal fortitude" because you can be sure that the PC police (academia & MSM) & their lackeys will respond with personal attacks. Your post just proved that.

"But this would be asking for the impossible from a pair of cowards wouldn't it."

Oooooh. Scary stuff, but a predictable use of the ad-hom from a PC guy (or gal! so sorry if I caused offence with the masculine form which could have possibly been construed as sexist). No attempt at logic here or at debating the points. I'll give you the last word because I'm not going to waste any more of my time debating an ad-hom/PC guy (they're usually one & the same) (oops, did it again!). And I'm boycotting all your posts in future because debating a name-caller is like debating a child. Bad luck, you didn't even make it past the first round. You are the weakest link. Goodbye!

TNT,
Plenty of good research comes out of Universities . You probably wouldn't be doing what you are doing without it .
The findings from research work on Aboriginal Social problems is often unpalatable to white and also black Australians. It may not provide the answers but where it does quite often it gets ridiculed by vested interests and flat line thinkers who refuse to take blame for Aboriginal conditions even when they hold the money and power.
The present government refuses to make a separate Ministry to help Aboriginal People overcome their problems; this proves Howard and his National lackeys are hopeless and not serious on addressing the biggest problems in our most depressed group of our Australian Society.
Aboriginal Reconciliation, saying Sorry for past injustices and lack of an Internationally recognised Treaty are for OTHER countries ,not us {have you noticed a pattern here]and this with a so called "Christian" Government.
This continues to give other countries more ammunition to carry out their own Human Rights Abuses such as we see in West Papua .
Many Aboriginal People are starting to "do well" but on percentage terms they receive much less than they need to lift their basic health and education-vital ingredients for a fulfilling life.
All this neglect may make the "ostrich club" feel good ,but will pose a continual unnecessary burden on all Australians.
One Vote but NOT the One Value !

LOL, why on earth would debating you raise the intellectual calibre of the debate here on OLO?

I will however debate your claim to be able to write, think critically, chew gum and walk at the same time.

There is nothing original in your posts, the usual deployment of political correct arguments that are themselves right-wing politically correct, the use of racist innuendo, are all anti intellectual, and just plain juvenile. And you accuse me of being vague? Puleeze!

You implicitly know this when posters use cliché lines from television show like you have.

It never fails to amaze me how posters like you and Arjay think the whole world is reading what you write and applauding, that you are soldiers in some imaginary ideological war on-line, scoring points to God, Queen and country and Mr Howard.

I find these delusions both comical and sad as it reminds me of all those poor people who thought Pauline Hanson was going to deliver them evil, forever and ever, amen.

She didn’t and they’ve been wandering around forums like this looking for salvation ever since. Welcome to your world TNT, you’re lost, you’re inadequate and you’ve got Arjay for a mate.

There now, I've finished my post and you're about to read the rest of it instead of boycotting it like you said you would, but guess what?

You're now faced with a dilemma. Should you:

• reply with some more feeble invective and thus admit your boycotting of my posts was just a silly threat (because you ran out of clever(?)things to say..

• never reply and brood eternally because you don't what to appear to be an idiot in front of other posters here on OLO (again)

Over to you Einstein!

...
kartiya jim:

re sensitive matters, surely you'd agree that being non-PC, epsecially on matters Aboriginal, in unis can land you in hot water. I'll bet the overwhelming research on Aboriginal problems focuses on symptoms first, also on what others can do - often couched in vague, simplistic language - eg. 'a treaty', but very little emphasis on what they can do for themselves.

"The present government refuses to make separate Ministry to help Aboriginal People overcome their problems; this proves Howard and his National lackeys are hopeless"

Another govt dept? More Howard bashing? Heard it all before. Too simplistic. Don't buy it.

"saying Sorry for past injustices"

What exactly does 'sorry' achieve? sorry for what? how phrased? I suspect the sorry comes with strings attached. a legal land-mine? Saying sorry also does absolutely nothing to change the all important vitals. What tangible improvements do you think saying sorry would have for, say the Aborigines residing in the Todd River, Alice, often in a state of dilirium? Methinks none.

"and lack of an Internationally recognised Treaty"

treaty? with which group? the details? any thoughts? there never will be one while the Aborigines themselves are so divided. And, guessing, the more multicultural & global we become, the chances of a treaty will further diminish. We are increasingly made up of foreign born residents, & they will rightly ask: what's this treaty & apology thing with all the strings attached got to do with me?

"Many Aborigines... receive much less than they need to lift their basic health and education-vital ingredients for a fulfilling life."

Don't buy. If they spent the money they get wisely, no good reason why the vitals can't improve big time.

"All this neglect may make the "ostrich club" feel good "

All this neglect doesn't make anyone feel good. It's a blight. It's in everyone's interest for the Aborigines to become integrated into the global economy. I think the only 'ostrich club' out there is the one that thinks that by creating one more govt office, & spending more taxpayers hard-earned, that is the answer. A mirage.

TNT,
It's strange TNT that after complaining about University political correctness it would seem that you are toeing the Liberal and Nationals parties PC lines with your arguments .Nothing new or progressive .On some of your points...
No one in the Liberal or National parties would have the guts,statesmanship or integrity to put their hand up for an individual Aboriginal Affairs Ministry ,too hard for them .I feel sorry for Mal Brough who is bumbling along with no support .
A genuine apology from Howard would have helped Heal souls after the "Stolen Generations "report came out, however the rest of his party and the RED -neck Nationals would be looking down their noses at him.
As for the neglected alcohol affected people in the Todd river hearing his apology ,it just could be that they may like to hear it and be a bit less depressed .Howard's inability to say "Sorry" for obvious past injustices either produces anger, contempt or indifference in many Australians including the new ones that you somehow think arrive here without a conscience or values .
Howard is much happier organising war overseas rather than organising political and social peace with our own Aboriginal people. Even John Hewson recently said Howard was a failure with his feeble attempts at Aboriginal Reconciliation and will be recorded as such.He has let down a huge percentage of Australians.
I also find it amazing you would be so mean spirited in a country as rich as ours that you would deny Aboriginal Australians a Treaty that
would place them in the same position at least as the Mauris and American and Canadian Indigenous People .
Your fear of a legally binding Treaty that includes considerable Reparations, that may stand up in International Courts should not blind you to the Injustice that has been carried for 200 years on the shoulders of our Aboriginal Brothers and Sisters. Whingeing about the money and effort required to do the right thing is not acceptable in today's society, even yours.

kartiya jim

"It's strange that after complaining about University political correctness it would seem you are toeing the Liberal/Nationals parties PC lines with your arguments."

The common meaning of 'PC' is what is/ not acceptable to say in the general public arena, eg. MSM. Try saying Aborigines need to do more to help themselves on, say national tv, too controversial. Worse, the argument would likely be attacked, likely as 'racist'. Even worse, personal attacks. The result (& intention) of silencing them. Compare that to saying whites were to blame for the predicament of Aborigines. Totally different response. In fact par for the course in the MSM, especially uni's.

"No one in the Libs/Nats have the guts... to put their hand up for an individual Aboriginal Affairs Ministry."

Why would they want to if they don't see that as a solution to improving the vitals?

"A genuine apology from Howard would have helped Heal souls after the "Stolen Generations "report came out"

I (& many others) don't feel that this warranted an apology. I believe this policy was done with the best of intentions, given the appalling conditions many faced in their own communities (black & white). Now you could validly argue that these conditions were a result of past racism. But something had to done to put these children in an environment where they would not be further neglected. I would go along with an apology for having put these families in a situation where they were neglected, but not for intervening to do something about it.

"hearing his apology ,it just could be that they may like to hear it and be a bit less depressed."

OK

"Howard's inability to say "Sorry" for obvious past injustices either produces anger, contempt or indifference in many Australians including the new ones that you somehow think arrive here without a conscience or values."

At no stage did I say/imply that new arrivals were "without conscience or values". I said they would be reluctant to support a treaty or a 'sorry' if this meant plenty of strings attached......(continued next post)

(continued)...

Would be interesting nevertheless to do an online poll on these 2 things, with strings in full view. Think most would say no. Doubt that it will happen, too unsafe. I mean if polies on the left were confident of the outcome, I'm sure we would have had one by now.

"(Howard) has let down a huge percentage of Australians."

Again, like to see a poll. Remember the Tampa, where 95%+ Aussies (yes, all colour, race, culture, the left & right!) polled were in favour of Howard's actions. Don't be so sure of that 'huge percentage'.

"I also find it amazing you would be so mean spirited in a country as rich as ours that you would deny Aboriginal Australians a Treaty that would place them in the same position at least as the Mauris and American and Canadian Indigenous People."

No point in arguing for a treaty unless I can see the fine print. What would the terms? Would that treaty be acceptable to all indigneous groups? 'Treaty' is a pretty vague concept. What position exactly has a treaty placed the Mauris & indigneous Canadians in? John Pilger argues for a treaty along US lines. But they seem to be in a desperate situation on the reserves/casinos. Has that really worked? Apparently many are totally aimless & conveniently hidden from view. I would never want that as a long term solution for the Aborigines.

"Your fear of a legally binding Treaty that includes considerable Reparations, that may stand up in International Courts should not blind you to the Injustice carried for 200 years on the shoulders of our Aboriginal Brothers and Sisters."

No question about the historical injustice to the Aborigines. Where we disagree is the remedy. You say that throwing more $ at the problem & a 'treaty' is the way to go. I don't.

"Whingeing about the money and effort required to do the right thing is not acceptable in today's society, even yours."

Yes it is, if throwing $ at the problem has not worked so far. We need to try something different.

TNT,
You mentioned Aboriginal people being able to achieve similar levels of health if they spent their money wisely. The last report on Aboriginal incomes I saw gave them something like 60 to 65 % of our incomes .
With the cost of travel and living ,particularly in even the bigger towns in the bush and few doctors, they stand a very small chance of achieving similar health outcomes unless more money is spent.Their health is that bad the men live 17 years less than us.It is a shamefull state of affairs that I won't accept.
If you and that big % of other well off Australian voters you say are out there are happy with the Aboriginal levels of income and health, yet complain about more money being spent on programmes and the amount of taxes that are needed to help them help themselves, there will be continue to be more poor health and social outcomes and in the International Indigenous arena we will continue to be "on the nose" with our Government's seemingly indifferent attitude.
The Ostrich Club will roll on fuelled and fed by the popular press , but their indifference may well come under uncomfortable scrutiny if Howard's and Windschuttle's history classes ever get started.