Ah Ted Lapkin, the ubiquitous Israeli Minister for propaganda, the old, "Jews right of self defence".!

Let's get it straight, Israelis' religion in not the issue; their actions are; they could be Hindu, Catholic, African, blue, green, from the moon; it is their ACTIONS that are the issue.

Jews are not under attack; Palestinians and Lebanese- of all religions- are. The old refrain won't wash anymore. So, Jews...smoosh...get over it! The issue is one of colonisation, land grab and ignoring international law. Now, I'm sure you'd love to go back to the "good old days" of hiding behind your religion to justify atrocities...too late, the cat is well and truly out of the bag.

And previously to this, I hadn't realised that Hizbolla were actaully Lebanese people fighting Israeli attackers. This latest Israeli aggression has made me read more and learn more about them....and realise that the superfical tripe I'd just glanced over about them here was not true.

I did, however, know what Israel is doing in the Palestinian Territories; it is appallling that there are so many people lacking a conscience here by putting their self -interest before just plain human decency. Why do you think it is acceptable to take more of the little land that is left for the millions of indigenous people of Palestine?

What are your views on the international criminals, euphemistically known as "settlers"? What are your views on the Geneva Conventions? What are your views on dropping one tonne bombs onto heavily populated apartment blocks? What are your views on an occupying military that kills children with impunity? There are too many human issues that you studiously ignore

What concerns me most about Lapkin urging arms procurements etc on Australia is the hidden assumption that our army is going to continue to fight Israel's battles in the Middle East. The trouble is that the Zionist lobby is so rich and influential that Australian politicians fall over themselves to be of service. If only the Arab/Palestinian section of our population could develop a lobby as sophisticated and confident, we might achieve some balance. And this will happen one day.

Hourus

For you to suggest as you have is merely a personal attack and typical of the foolish. Why don't you prove you are not a fool and debate my points.

Oh so I'm wrong to object to Israeli land stealing and oppression because in a post criticising Israeli land-stealing and related actions in occupied Palestinian territory, I haven't mentioned land stealing and oppression by other groups in other lands.

That's an illogical argument. It's an absolutely silly suggestion which is not substantive and provides ample evidence to show you are not something more than the 'airheads' you condemn. :-)

And as for suggesting I suffer an anti semetic malaise. Well that's just evidence you are often prone to manipulating your genitalia in the manner widely undertaken in adolescence.

Ted

Wow! You did find a way to personally attack me!

Obviously doing that now causes the question to rise: Why did you do that rather than answer my legimate qeries? :-)

You should brush up on your comprehension skills. I was quite specific and it was quite clear in my post that I would not accept any propaganda in relation to 'the Arab threats' ... other responses are welcome, that is if you really want to engage in a fair dinkum discourse...Ted.

Just so you don't have to go searching here's what I said.
"Who really wants peace in the mid East? Israel? Then why, since it's whipping in Lebanon, has the Israeli Government 'auctioned' further Palestinian land in the Palestinian West Bank? I think I'll get a nil response to those questions. Don't bother bringing on the usual Israel propaganda about the Arab threats. That's just nonsense. And I just no longer accept or listen to them. I have heard and seen enough."

Now let's carry on a fair dinkum discourse in relation to my query about land stealing and the Israeli Government auctions of Palestinian land...without any reference to threats from Arabs.

Ted - Marilyn may fit a certain stereotype, indeed, she does fit it rather well.

But that being said, you also appear to fit a stereotype quite nicely. The ex-military commander, vehement in his defence of Israeli actions, which in your view (and correct me if I'm wrong) are almost always justified regardless of their intensity.
Indeed, watching you two argue is somewhat predictable, as the rhetoric, if not the precise wording, can be quite easily extrapolated from both your backgrounds, be they merely perceived or otherwise. To criticise one for their adherence to a stereotype isn't particularly constructive, and it tends to drag the discussion off topic.

Whilst I'm always interested in commenting on the broad issues here: whether increased military expenditure is Australia's top priority, and whether or not current Australian military operations are really relevant to Australian defence, I can only profess my ignorance of the nuts and bolts characteristics of military ordinance. On that score, I'm quite happy to defer to Mr Lapkin's judgement, and I'd put it to other posters, how many of you actually have military experience in these matters, aside from reading an article or two?

KEITH – Let’s consult the primary sources to see whether Islamic threats are, as you claim, mere “propaganda” (source MEMRI):

"The Islamic world, and the Muslim youth in all the Islamic countries know that there is no way to confront the barbaric Zionist wolves and the aggression of the 'Great Satan' [America] except through martyrdom.
(Iran's Supreme Leader Khamenei, 6 August 2006)

"We will not give up the resistance in the sense of jihad, martyrdom-seeking, sacrifices, arrests, the demolition of homes, and the uprooting of trees, at the same time, nor the shattering of the Israeli enemy's honor in all the confrontations - the war of tunnels and of security against the Israeli enemy, which ultimately led to its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and part of the West Bank. Palestine means Palestine in its entirety - from the [Mediterranean] Sea to the [Jordan] River, from Ras Al-Naqura to Rafah [meaning all of Israel]. We cannot give up a single inch of it. Therefore, we will not recognize the Israeli enemy's right to a single inch.”
(Hamas leader – and current Palestinian Foreign Minister - Mahmoud al-Zahar, 1 February 2006)

"I hope that our courageous and great nation will succeed one day in taking revenge against Israel and America, avenging the blood of the oppressed Muslims and the martyrs. In light of the Zionists' crimes and oppression, I ask God to hasten the years when this regime will no longer exist... The Zionists are hastening their own death through their foul deeds, since Hizbullah and the Lebanese people are undefeated. There is a need to topple the phony Zionist regime, this cancerous growth Israel, which was founded in order to plunder the Muslims' resources and wealth."
(Iranian Revolutionary Guards Commander Yahya Raheem Safavi, 30 July 2006)

As for your question, Israel desires peace. To that end it offered the Palestinians all of Gaza, 95%+ of the West Bank and territorial compensation for the outstanding 5%. Have a look at Bill Clinton’s memoirs to see who he blames for the collapse of the Taba negotiations in January 2001 (hint – Arafat).

TurnRightThenLeft

As usual you make good points and have asked a fair question.

I have some military experience from a number of angles. Bit of infantry service, years closely liaising with military intelligence on counter-insurgency issues, living on army bases half my life, two generations of family members in the army involved with tanks/Armoured Personnel Carriers in WWII, Vietnam and up to the 1990s.

I agree with Ted that Hezbollah's demonstration of deadlier antitank weapons should be taken heed of by the Defence Department and armoured vehicles should be upgraded.

40 Canadian soldiers have now died in Afghanistan. An Australian force around 40% of the Canadian one is now going to a dangerous area of Afghanistan. Australian deaths are likely.

I may be wrong but I get the feeling Australians have been shielded from the worst areas of Iraq to ensure our Government will happily keep the flag flying. The barely reported widespread withdrawal of most non English speaking coalition partners means Australians have to fill in for them in dangerous areas where higher Australian casualties are very likely.

WHEN AUSTRALIANS START TO DIE IN COMBAT HOWARD WILL USE THE LINE "WE MUST REMAIN THERE TO HONOUR THE FALLEN" - ALWAYS SOUNDS GOOD BEFORE AN ELECTION - OF NO HELP TO THE FALLEN.

How about avoiding a situation of "the fallen" and allowing the Iraqis and Afghanis to fight their own traditional sectarian battles unsupported by Australia?

I've said in the past Australia should stay to keep al Qaeda busy "over there" but I now feel that the very presence of Western forces provides a recruiting reason for al Qaeda in Iraq and Afghanistan and boosts homegrown terrorism.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com