This started out as quite a reasonable blog -- an interesting point of view and a number of comments, which unfortunately have degenerated into cheap point-scoring. We have seen Sheik al-Hilaly at it again, with the usual dissembling from his defenders and more recently allegations concerning Sheik Feiz Mohammed Amir, also an Australian citizen, calling on his co-religionists to sacrifice their children in the sacred name of jihad. On this blog we have had the usual quota of atheists, agnostics (usually defined as an atheist who hedges his bets) rationalists (in their own view; irrational in the eyes of others) the odd Christian and "usual suspects."

I do not want to buy into a slanging match with anyone but we should look at the facts. The Islamic fundamentalists mentioned above are deadly serious in their statements. No allusions to the poetic nature of Arabic and difficulties with translation can mask jihadist teaching and preaching. While it is true that Christian fundamentalists in America have the same apocalyptic worldview as hard-line Muslims, their capacity to influence gullible and alienated youth is far less. I'm sure that we have some of these Christian weirdos in Australia but none come remotely close to the so-called Christian Zionists in America, who collect money to arm Israel in the belief that Armageddon is at hand. Presumably they believe they will be swept up in the rapture of the second coming, rather than become particles of fallout.

My view is that as our much-loved Prime Minister has said: we should have the right to determine who comes to this country and settles. We cannot sustain a hostile counterculture (of fundamentalist Muslims) in our midst. The government has a majority in both Houses and it is high time that a law was introduced to strip imported hate mongers of their citizenship, irrespective of their stripe, and in the case of the two Sheiks deport them to somewhere singularly unpleasant. It is amazing that the government has the power to deport convicted criminals from this country but not those who would tear it apart through religious madness.

perikles

The government has a majority in both Houses and it is high time that a law was introduced to strip imported hate mongers of their citizenship, irrespective of their stripe, and in the case of the two Sheiks deport them to somewhere singularly unpleasant. It is amazing that the government has the power to deport convicted criminals from this country but not those who would tear it apart through religious madness.

You know i have said this several times now and you know what , it doesnt matter neither labor or liberal will do this because they would lose votes .

The Australian Peoples Party what are they going to do to me.
I well in favour off this and several other things but here is just talk nothing else.

swulrich@bigpond.net.au

Crusader raises a very interesting point- ie is the right of free speech absolute?

For instance I thought that the imprisonment of David Irving in Austria for 'Holocaust Denial' was wrong. I also note that Irving has been banned from travelling to Australia which I think is ridiculous. Of course, this is not say I agree with Mr Irving or even sympathise with his historical revisionism. However, imprisoning him achieved three things: (a) gave creedence to the idea that the holocaust would not stack up to challenge; (b) turned Irving into some kind of hero to the disenfranchised European far right and fundamentalist Iranians; (c) made us all look like hypocrites for attacking Muslims but defending Jews.

Furthermore I think parallels can also be drawn with the indefinite imprisonment of David Hicks when you ask the question of what it has achieved: (a) eroded the concept of innocent until proven guilty; (b) turned Hicks into a hero of the socialist left; (c) made us all look like hypocrites for denouncing the justice metered out by the Taleban while supporting Guantanomo Bay style detention.

In my view the comments from the muftis are far more damaging than those of Irving and the actions of David Hicks, yet we continue to tolerate them and take no action. Why?

JohnJ,

Excellent post, its always seemed to me that religion is a barrier to a common understanding amongst the peoples of this world, not a force.

BOAZ_David is indeed an intriguing character, he strikes me as an intelligent, eccentric yet likeable fellow. Which is why for the life of me i can not understand some of the illogical garbage that spews from his keyboard

Yes - the Sheikh is misguided. No - free speech isn’t alright. It must not be free from restraint and responsibility. Using the right to free speech to abuse others or to maliciously create misunderstanding, hatred or serious disharmony is plain wrong and, like the drunken street bully, if people haven't the self-restraint and respect of others' rights to fair treatment and sensible behaviour, then the law should be called on to constrain them.

I think a good leader's first priority must be to develop positive and helpful relations. The difference between a media-savvy (and media supported) western leaders is they only appear to do so; whereas some old warmongering sheiks (and pastors) haven't learnt how to scam the wider-community.

Heart-on -sleeve style politics is at least honest. I guess that is why Hanson gathered such a following. I think it is fair to compare Hanson with Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali - they both didn't respect the Australian way of getting to know individuals before forming an opinion or commenting about them.

The media do tend to beat-up the newsworthiness of comments that the likes of Hilali and Hanson make. I think that our concern needs to be with the real extremists. The hardcore utilitarian zealots who see the only way to peace and happiness is through killing innocents and constantly attacking other cultures and peoples.

The “christian) utilitarians who can't see that Christianity is supposed to be about holding firm to certain principles (thereby, preserving the value and authority of those Principles which in turn ensures long-term stability) have apparently chosen to go down the same path of the extremists and warmongers. There is nothing wrong with pointing out certain negative aspects of others’ cultures but to make a hobby of it is not sensible behaviour (Boaz, et al).

The media's job must be to inform us - not to create news for its own sake. And communities need to sack or refuse to support these groups and individuals whose main intent is to try to create disharmony and destroy positive aspects and relations in Australian society.

I said: "The hardcore utilitarian zealots who see the only way to peace and happiness is through killing innocents and constantly attacking other cultures and peoples."

Just a bit of self critique here. I realised that I am being very generous in assigning such worthy motivation as wanting peace and happiness to these people (hardcore zealots). To be honest I think that some people create strife because without that power they have nothing else in their character or lives of any merit. They are just like vandals who destroy things for the sake of it or to draw attention to themselves.

For every President, Mufti, Sheik, Pastor, Prime Minister there are millions of people who fill their lives with mostly constructive and helpful works.

Unfortunately they are the ones whose peace and happiness, as history records, the "leaders" seem determined to destroy. Maybe Marx was correct and we need to stop fighting each other and take a long hard look at who the real enemy is.