K£vin,
A word or two - you read too much of your opinion of me, into my comments.

1. They are not my sentiments about Islam (as you say). These are found in the Qur'an.
2. I have not said the war in Iraq is justified. Nor have I said it was undertaken to protect people. Nor have I defended Bush and Blair and Howard.

Please stick to what I have said, if you want to criticise my comments. I won't mind that

Then I apologise unreservedly tennyson's_one_far-off_divine_event. I thought you were being rhetorical. Your questions were genuinely much more inquisitive than I initially imagined. Sorry.

My point regarding the examples you refer to from the Qur'an was not to question the authenticity of your statement but rather to simply point out that in my opinion, the Bush/Blair doctrine seems to have much more in common with this approach to the world than their own, stated, "christian" approach.

Again, sorry for any predjudice displayed in my last post and for misunderstanding your intentions.

thanks K£vin,
yes they were genuinely exploratory questions.

It was a pleasant surprise to be heard on a second attempt response, on this forum.
These forums are frequently 'set 'em up and knock 'em down' conversational affairs.
That is the common fare.

Gracious words, are generally reserved, only for those of like mind on any given topic. And labels are readily applied to all who fail to fit the mould.

I guess most of us like to be heard, even if our view is deemed to be "a dud" - by those far wiser!

As a contributor from a Christian perspective, I am quite aware that the right wing of Christianity does plenty of damage, as does the left. However, it is a "brave" - and hyper-proud - person who sets out to speak words, that they consider are 'far wiser' than Jesus.
Cheers

To Kevin and others.

Regarding Bush/Blair/Howard .... and the relationship between their behavior and Christ's teaching.

Personally, I struggle terribly with seeking to implement 'literally' what Jesus said in some of the sermon on the mount.
Here are the reasons.

While he taught "Love your enemies" etc...
He also also said:

-"If you eye sins against you...GOUGE it out"
-"If your hand sins against you CUT IT OFF"
-"If any man will follow me HE MUST HATE his mother, father,brother etc"

We need to be careful about applying 2006 values and literary understanding of AD30 mindset and methods of getting a point across.

Romans 13 is the most appropriate to apply to the Leaders of a country. (Please read it)

Clearly, leaders have a responsibility with the SWORD (or the tank or F-16 etc) to protect the populace. "Rulers are not a deterrent to good, but to evil" "he does not carry the sword in vain" etc...
The principle here is 'Just War' (deter evil)

Our Lords teaching, is something that can be applied at the personal level and the National level, but NOT Literally as translated in most English Bibles..... (I prefer to keep both of my sinning hands, legs and eyes :)

There is a recorded incident of a Catholic Priest who told an Indian tribe 'Love your enemies'.... don't fight them. The result was 100% massacre and the end of that tribe.

Perhaps we should 'restrain' with 'reasonable force' an enemy who is trying to cut our daughters throat ? This is indeed 'loving' one's enemy, as opposed to grabbing the shotgun and blowing his brains out.

When I sat with the brother of one of the 13 terror suspects, in Melb last week, I have to say the most prominent emotion I felt was compassion, in spite of all I say about Islam here.
See how I go at the protest rally on Saturday :) come visit me in hospital k. Might be 1 against 500 or more. Hope they don't have knives.

No one wants to go to either heaven or hell and leave this world the way it is.

What we now desperately need now is not statesmen, too often people who like to strut the world stage like our re-born John Howard, usually leaving not much grace behind.

Maybe we need strong women, but if we do need men, let them be like Nelson Mandela who changed arpathaidist minds by the simple act of the granting of forgiveness.

Or in the same vein as Mandela, the choice would have to be Mikhail Gorbachev who too like Mandela realised that political change also needs forgivenness as well as the wisdom to take the overhead view and look at both sides like the true global jurist our world of today needs so much.

Such persons have not the minds of political strategists or social engineers, but minds more like excellent physicians who would use the best of their knowledge to save a patient, whatever their crime. After all, one does not have to be madly religous to know it was what the young Jesus was trying to get across in His Sermon on the Mount.

Indeed, let a reborn UN have leaders like the two above, whether they be man or women.

Bushbred,

Good comments as usual.

Boaz, Kevin and Tennyson,

One word: Liviticus! Keep up the 'hate faith' then don't forget to close every comment with the 'God is Love' claim. Yeah right!