After writing the last post, the thought came to me in a clearer fashion - if we go too far in limiting any faith, the secular view becomes a faith in itself.

Aside from the ritualism, secularism is simply another way of viewing the world - from my view, it's the only logical way, but most people in the world would disagree with me. We can't discount that entirely, or agnostics are no better.

And that's what I'm getting at. Atheists and Agnostics look down their nose at religion as some kind of stupid fancy - I can admit that at times I do think that, but that makes me just like them.

It is still forcing one view upon another, and while I have no religious beliefs, one core belief I do have is that that is wrong - while I'd love to see everyone come to their senses and dump religion, I can't make them do it.
Were I to do it, I would be no better than an Imam exhorting his followers to forcibly convert others or the Priest condemning abortions.

I fear I still have a ways to go, because I still put the agnostic view on a pedestal - we all take our views more seriously than others, and that's the problem.

It's going to be hard, but simply put, we need a society that doesn't take religion seriously, one way or the other. You can believe without needing to persuade, it's hard, but I think thats the way we need to go.

Bit of a paradox isn't it. I'm trying to persuade people not to persuade. Oh well. I didn't say it was perfect.

Dear Bennie

not quite that simple. Why in the world should it worry you, or anyone else if a religion proclaims itself as the way to God, to the exclusion of all others ?

Your simple solution is.... DO NOTHING. Of course, it might be a worry if you were TAXED for not believing, or PERSECUTED... but if all you have to do is say 'no' or change the chanel, why are you so adamant that offering salvation through Christ is such a bad thing ?

Bear with me, as I wish to proclaim the gospel to you now: (u_r free to stop here)

God, has revealed Himself through the people and history of Israel, and finally and completely in the man Jesus, the Messiah, Christ.

We know this because of the signs Jesus did during His ministry.
The reports of such signs are reliable and trustworthy.

Jesus did the following:

-Healed the sick. (born blind, crippled for life, demonic posession)
-Raised the dead. (Lazarus)
-Stilled the storms (power over nature)
-Fed multitudes with 5 loaves etc... on 2 separately documented occasions.
-Turned water into Wine
-Walked on Water.
-Died (for our sins) and Rose from the dead. (The ultimate 'sign')

The signs were done for the following reason: (John 20.31)

[But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.]

Bennie, notice the words 'may' ? You can choose to disbelieve, reject, close your heart. No-one is going to force you to accept this.

If we are deluded in believing that God has entered the affairs of mankind, and revealed Himself, then as Paul said:

"We, of all men are most to be pitied"

So, if we are in error here, pity us, don't be angry. No-one is forcing you to even read this... if u did.

warm regards
Boaz

Dear TurnRight....

I love the honesty in your posts :)

Looks like the return of the Nephilim B_D, and by the way, get a book called; “Alien Intrusion”; by Gary Bates. Or the Audio CD. I am Fairdinkum about this David. Buy it, and you will be pleased with the purchase, and it is quite revealing. With absolute impeccable references and Intellectual minds at work.
They are not Agnostics by the way, some need to actually look Agnostics up, and then hide their heads with embarrassment when they find out what it actually is.
Dr Evil (PhD)

turnrightthenleft ...then inside out.

tennyson's_one_far-off_divine_event - You admirably say:

“Jesus said ‘You have heard it was said ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy’. But I say to you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (Matthew 5:44). This is a wonderfully new attitude toward enemies.”

Then how do you explain Bush, Blair, Howard, Berlusconni et al?