Good piece now watch the frenzy of standard posts from the standard people.

They should work together or none of them will go to heaven.

From which planet do you come from?

Allah is not God.

Muslims are deluted in accepting that Jews and Christians are their enemies because they do not believe in Allah and his prophet Mohammad.

If Jews, Muslems and the 'religious' Christians would have accepted Jesus as THE Messiah, the ONLY saviour of humanity, King of kings, Lord of all, we would not have any conflict in the ME or anywhere else.

Religion is the source of all evil. Always has been and always will be.

God does not need a land or a building to reign. He lives in the hearts of those who believe in Jesus.

coach, you are a perfect example of everything that is wrong in this world. You are a fundamentalist and you are wrong and if their is a god he will judge you accordingly.

My religion asks me to believe that a man of about 100kg could walk on water. Can anyone top that?

All religions should be banned.

You're definitely missing the point of the article.

First of all, the story of Jesus walking on water has symbollic significance. Unless you take the bible literally, you're supposed to look beyond the obvious to understand the messages.

And can you give us any real logic as to why religion should be banned? Apart from the time old tradition of "religion causes all wars"
because I think the author of the article has covered that one already.

Great article, make some more...

Coach,

I’m not an expert on Semitic languages, but I thought that “Allah” was simply the Arabic word for God. Jesus, who spoke a related Semitic language, called God “Eli” according to Matthew 27:46. My understanding of Islam is similarly limited, but I’ve always understood that the Allah referred to by Arabic speakers has always been considered to be the same God worshipped by Christians and Jews. Not sure what you’re getting at, mate.

Religion certainly doesn't cause all wars, and it certainly isn't the source of all of man's problems.

However, the monotheistic religions are essentially an either/or scenario. In a nutshell, it's their way or the highway. There's no room for any plurality, so how can anyone logically propose that they work together as a unified body? At best, the "believers" will have pity on the "non-believers" for what will lead them to hell. History has provided plenty of examples of how it gets worse. "Believers" will never see others as being on an equal footing. Anyone who says they can or do is living in a fantasy land. Oops... That's what religion is all about. My bad.

"When the Muslims and Christians learn to work together as a unified body than it may become a more formidable force, one that no amount of weapons can destroy."

Nice comment, but it would be good to see the Jewish people included in their as well - though sadly, I can't help but feel that Allah and Yahweh will come to earth as chimps to play ping pong long before that happens.

And Coach - that has to be one of the simultaneously stupid, hilarious and misguided posts I've ever seen -

You say: "Religion is the source of all evil. Always has been and always will be"

and yet: "he (god)lives in the hearts of those who believe in Jesus"

Umm... I'm afraid you now must either:

A) acknowledge the first comment is stupid
B) acknowledge the second comment is stupid
C) renounce Jesus
D) acknowledge you are in fact, evil
E) take an english language refresher course which has a solid section on oxymoronic discourse
F) write some kind of misguided follow up, explaining how Christianity is somehow different to all the other religions who have some ancient book saying 'we're the right one, it's all the others who are wacko'.

I like the article, and agree with it, but I don't really see how its going to happen - until I see some indication that the religiously motivated violence is slowing down, a secular solution is about all we have, as ineffective as they may be.

Dear mr Coach
I'm a Lebanese Maronite Catholic and I am studying Theology and your telling me that when i refer to God in arabic as Allah it becomes a diferent person... what a joke

You say that Muslims are Deluded, no they are not, they just like anyone else can only know about life by what they have been brought up to see.

Fundamentalist of any religion is what the problem is, now dont get me wrong I am very strong in my faith but I would never treat someone who is not Catholic like dirt! it is that train of thought that has caused most problems in the Middle East,
At Hand Fundamental Jews think that because they are sons of Abraham that they have supremisy over all other humans,
Fundamental Muslims think that all infedels (meaning anyone who is not muslim) should submit or die,
And the fundamental Christians dont turn the other Cheek like you would think that they should or would.
oh and by the way your coment doesnt make sence other than the coment Allah is not God you also talk about how everone should accept Jesus as their Saviour but then you go on and say "Religion is the source of all evil. Always has been and always will be" it just doesnt make sence.

Finaly Sheree good article we need more people like you in this world!

God bless all
Yasouna

A pox on all religion!

Shorbe,

The perversion of religion to justify war (or terrorism) is probably as old as mankind, and all three of the great monotheistic faiths have done this at times. Yahweh himself was originally the war god of the Jews, although saner versions of God have evolved in the past 3000 years.

There is plenty of shared common ground between the faiths and with modern secular humanism. You could start with the body of UN documents on human rights.

What each of the religious traditions needs to avoid is the tendency to retreat into fundamentalist intolerance, which has less to do with religious truth than the sense of shame and injustice stemming from longstanding tribal conflicts. Although often couched in religious terms, the Middle East conflicts have their origin in the competing imperatives of national, tribal and political groups, and exploiting religious differences is simply a convenient way for those in power, or those seeking power, to entrench and extend that power. Nearly all political systems rely to some extent on the assent of the people: pushing buttons around shame and anxiety are effective ways of manipulating that assent. Genuinely religious people are foolish to allow such exploitation of their beliefs.

All the great monotheistic faiths have threads of tolerance and plurality in their traditions. They need to return to these. At the same time, the solutions to the ME conflicts cannot be left up to self appointed clerics: that’s not how the modern world should ever work.

Snout,

Well said, but I believe there is a lot of debate behind the division amongst muslims. They are a divided people, the region is very much divided, and the people are being consumed by corrupt dictators which the US loves to see. It took Christianity several hundred years to get its act together, and if we consider that Islam is younger than Christianity, then we really need to cut these people some slack.

Personally I follow nothing, I don't need God and he certainly doesn't need me :) But having judged all religions I would say the one religion with most hope is the youngest of the 3 (Islam). Most won't see that now because it's still very scarey looking.

It's like judging the Chinese and Indians, give them 20-30 years and they will no longer be thought of as 3rd world countries.

coach: Allah is the equivalent to God. I'm sure everyone on this forum would agree that they would rather be "The Devil" with no religion than to be a False Christian such as yourself. Renounce your faith son..

Dev

What does it matter, a dream of love
Or a dream of lies
We're all gonna be in the same place
When we die
Your spirit don't leave knowing
Your face or your name
And the wind through your bones
Is all that remains
And we're all gonna be
We're all gonna be
Just dirt in the ground

The quill from a buzzard
The blood writes the word
I want to know am I the sky
Or a bird
'Cause hell is boiling over
And heaven is full
We're chained to the world
And we all gotta pull
And we're all gonna be
Just dirt in the ground

Now the killer was smiling
With nerves made of stone
He climbed the stairs
And the gallows groaned
And the people's hearts were pounding
They were throbbing, they were red
As he swung out ofver the crowd
I heard the hangman said
We're all gonna be
Just dirt in the ground

Now Cain slew Abel
He killed him with a stone
The sky cracked open
And the thunder groaned
Along a river of flesh
Can these dry bones live?
Ask a king or a beggar
And the answer they'll give
Is we're all gonna be
Yea yeah
We're all gonna be just
Dirt in the ground

'tom waits'

I reckon all religious organisations should pay tax like all other corporations. Then lets see how long they last

Dear Sheree, thanx for the nice example of youthful idealism and freshness.

and.. Yasouna, nice to see a Maronite visiting this forum, I do hope both you and Sheree will not only continue here, but invite many of your friends to do so also, we need more input from those with language and cultural background arising from the ME.

Sheree, your comment 'must work together' re Muslims and Christians is ok on the surface, and for Christians it represents no problem, but for Muslims it might, unless we apply it only to what might be described as 'nominal/cultural' Christians/Muslims.

Mr Nazrallah and company are certainly not the 'cultural' types, they are the hard core, driven "The world and all it contains belongs to Allah and HIS MESSENGER" and they are also connected to and reliant on Iran/Syria for their social and Military programs.

So, as with most areas of conflict in the world, the main combatants at the cutting edge of battle are usually either proxies for other interests, or allied with other parties in a way which involves selling a piece of their own soul for the sake of expansion or security.

Sheree, you are just 18,born in Australia and have grown up in a time of peace. You were not even alive at the end of the Vietnam war, which I participated in. All I'm saying, is that for you, the thought of human conflict must be horrifying.

But your life has been a treasured luxury rather than the norm.
Even the peace you enjoy is based on terrible conflict and dispossession of indigenous land.

I appreciate your kind thoughts about them all getting together, but am not optimistic that it will achieve much. As Yuyutsu said in another post. "Its a war where one side must survive and the other die" Sad, but true.

"But having judged all religions I would say the one religion with most hope is the youngest of the 3 (Islam)".

This statement shows clearly that you are arrogant,ignorant and untruthful. All religions? Which ones? What is your judgment based on? What hope does Islam offer? Please provide answers to these questions to back up your statement.

Allah is a word used before Islam was proclaimed by Mohammed. It is a generic word for god.

In Fact....(Yasouna) and Sheree might also consider this point......

(Perhaps Sheree is either Orthodox, Maronite, Armenian or even Jewish ?)

In any case, coming from the non Muslim traditions of Lebanon, you may or may not (depending on what your parents have disclosed to you) be aware of the problems the Maronites had with the Druze and Turks and Sunni+Shia in 1840-1860. It was a genocide of extreme brutality which saw many thousands of Maronites hacked to death by the Druze while the Turks looked on.

Walid Jumblatts Grand Aunty was among those who supervised the grizzly task.

The forces at work in those days, were:

British (backing the Druze)
French (backing the Maronites)
Turks (backing whoever they saw as helping them keep empire)

and so on.

Hence, it would be a very big achievement for the current combatants to simply sit down by themselves and work it all out because there are outside interests pushing/or supporting them according to their own perceived interests.

... and thus the World works.

If we're not squabbling with our neighbours about the blackberries from 'THEIR' side growing onto 'our' place (my own current problem) its Abraham and Lots herdsmen squabbling over grazing land...

Does it end ? yes, I believe it does. But only within communities which share common values, not between those with competing or clashing values. Even 'giving your hungry enemy bread' did not save the Israelites from the Arameans as the memory of the kindness faded.

Please Read this link (all)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=12&chapter=6&version=31

Ben Hadad King of Aram said to the Israelites:

"Your silver and gold are mine, and the best of your wives and children are mine."

Today, the Merkeva's rumble to the Litani and F-16's roar overhead...
in the villages of Lebanon a donkey's head sells for eighty shekels of silver, and a quarter of a cab of seed pods for five shekels, -such was the famine.

Hey Sheree,

Great article, I really enjoyed reading it.

Terry

OK people I need to expand a little on my previous statements in 350 words or less

First “Allah-is-not-God”.

Although the word Allah means God in the Arabic language, it is not representative or descriptive of the same deity.

God (Yahweh) of the Jewish and Christian revealed himself through the prophets, to His people the Israelites.

Jesus is the promised Messiah that God has promised throughout the Old Testament scripture.

Islam is claiming Allah to be the only god worthy-of-worship-replacing-all-other-gods-and-idols. However-they-do-not-understand-or-know-the-true-person-and-character-of-the-true-God (love revealed in Jesus for example) Allah-is-a-far-cry-from-the-true-God-of-the-bible.

So the word Allah although synonymous to God but does not speak of the same diety.

Second:“Religion is the source of all evil.”

All religions are man-made earthly systems of ritualistic laws and customs that help adherence to a belief in a higher being. They-all-fulfil-the-spiritual-gap-that-exist-in-all-humans-giving-them-a-sense-of-belonging-but-keeps-them-away-from-the-true-Grace.

Christianity is a belief in the person of Jesus the Christ; who He is (the son of God) and especially what He HAS DONE for humanity: die on the cross as it was prophesised centuries before he became man and was born of Mary…

A study of Jesus’ life, death, and RESURECTION, his teachings as recorded by his followers and critics alike, will show that he did not come to start a new religion (we call Christianity) but to fulfil the religious beliefs that preceded Him (law and the prophets) and proclaim the Kingdom of God His Father. He is the lamb of God depicted when Abraham almost sacrificed his son Jacob (and not Ishmael as the Moslems claim).

Islam’s feud with the other two religions, Judaism and Christianity, goes back to the time their prophet Mohammad an Arab (born-hundreds-of-miles-away-in-Mecca-"Arabia\") decided to make an impression on the Jews in Madinah with by proclaming his Abrahamic prophethood. Of course they laughed at him, and the slaughter began, the rest is history …

Since-then-all-non-Muslems-are-fair-game-to-Islam’s-might-of-the-sword. Convert-or-die. Unfortunately the religious Christians and Jews reciprocated that hatred in self-defense.

Today-is-the-continuation-of-that-ancestral-criminal-intent-that-aims-at-world-domination. Since-in-Islam-there-is-no-separation-of-state-and-church, they-cannot-co-exis- and-practice-their-religion-unde- any-other-regime. True democracy and Islam cannot mix, never has, never will.

Islam can only thrive under a Muslem dictator and the rule of Allah. Theocracy not democracy.

I am with Leigh. But with certain qualifications and explanations.

Let's all try an experiment with our neighbours in our neighbourhoods. I know mine are Italian, Greek, Lebanese, Iranian, Afghan, Iraqi, Aborigine, English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Cornish and dozens of others I don't know.

I know that some are shi'ite muslim, some are sunni muslim (although I don't know the difference), some are Jesuit (which I know because they tell me), some are Anglican, some are Buddhist, some are Hindu and so on.

I am not sure what all of that means but how about we all just look at the man or woman or child next door and see a human being that eats, sleeps, breathes and bleeds just like us.

If we did that instead of demonising each other as so many of our so-called leaders do how many of us could drop the first bomb?

Mr Coach

Like I said before Muslims believe in the same God as both Christians and Jews, “Allah” in Arabic a word which I use day to day(just a reminder I'm a Lebanese Maronite Catholic), Just because they have a different view of him doesn't mean that He is a different Deity think of it this way the Jews don’t believe in the Holy Trinity does that mean that they are believing in a different God, No, also you really have to patch up on your study if your referring to God as '”Yahweh” in Hebrew the word for God is 'Eli' much like the Arabic word 'Allah' and Yahweh simply meaning 'I am what I am'

You said "A study of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection, his teachings as recorded by his followers and critics alike, will show that he did not come to start a new religion (we call Christianity)"
If that’s so then what does Jesus Mean when he says "you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church"(Matt 16:18) sounds like he was organizing something.

It was the community in Mecca that rejected Mohammad not the community in Medina they were the ones who believed his message.

Also you refer to "Islam’s-might-of-the-sword." you can’t blame an entire religion for the actions of some men do you as a Christian want to be under blame for the extent of the Spanish Inquisition even the Catholic Church had no control of such events pleading with them to stop what they were doing? (But that’s not the story that People want to hear is it.

and also you say "Christians and Jews reciprocated that hatred in self-defense." What about the Palestinian children who get killed by Israeli soldiers

Finally you said "True democracy and Islam cannot mix"would you rather them be like the Zionists who exist in Democracy so long as they can manipulate things to their will.

God Bless you all
Yasouna

"In this land, right now, some are insane and they're in charge".

To hell with Hezbollah, we'll get drunk on cheap wine. Ah, to hell with Hezbollah!!

Can anyone explain how islam spread to Israel or Europe?

What a bloody dope. Coach don't speak here anymore, fool.

What gives it hope? Because hundreds of years ago it was at it's grand peak before the might of the Mongolian empire crushed it into the dark ages. Islam has never recovered from this, but when it does it will be back on track.

It's a true religion of peace, quite similar to that of Buddhism. Don't talk to me about Dictators and Allahs messenger. I didn't know Stallin and Hitler were of the Islamic faith??

Also regarding the 'Nam veteran, thanks for your post but the war you fought in was useless and counter productive to society. We do not want that war mentioned here, the US killed innocent people in the name of capitilism and US imperialism, just like the Israeli Zionist scumbags are doing today.

Dev

I agree with The Devil. (never thought I'd be saying that LOL)

Islam has to face another obstacle in it's growth and that obstacle is primarily this ridiculous "War on Terror" that has led to the unfair discrimination against Arabs and Muslims, targetting both their religion and their ethnicity and failing to actually distinguish between the two.

More importantly such discrimination and determination to rile up hatred against the Muslims is reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

And we all know how that one ended...

So the author's call to peace is even more imperative than we think and the fact that she focuses on religion here in an attempt to somehow alleviate the tensions and the constant blaming of religion, makes the article a rarity. Well done.

Yeah I agree with The Devil on all the points he has currently made. And the coach mate just get off these forums. You have said the stupiest things i have heard in my life. Get your facts straight before you post stupid comments like you have. Also stop putting - between words. Are you retarded or something?

Hi Devil,

Where is your residence (Hell)? So, Islam will dominate and Europe/Australia will get a new Caliphate. Are you that *-minded? Do you want us to believe in the Religion of Pieces

How about this for a Middle-East solution?
1. Acknowledge that Israel acts as a de facto state of the USA and formally make it one (which would include Palestine and all of the other occupied territories). That would even satisfy some Rabbis who fear any Zionist push against traditional Judaism. So the independent state of Israel would now have US currency, US law, US protection and even US citizens! So, any attack on the State of Israel would thus become a direct attack on the USA .
2. Get all those poor Palestinians out of there. It’s beyond human dignity to make them suffer like that. Where would they go? Anywhere has to be better than inside that hell-hole. Suggest first port of call for most should be Lebanon, then Syria, perhaps Saudi Arabia and many other Arab speaking countries. Don’t Arabs help and support one another? It’s not like they can’t afford to provide disadvantaged people with a new lease of life and some new hope.
3. Start up a United Arab Union of countries in the Middle East along similar lines to the European Economic Union. If it can be done using peaceful means in a former war-ravaged continent like Europe, then presumably it can also happen in the Middle East. Same currency, same laws, same economic drive and push for the betterment of all Arabs. Why not? Such a combined economy would dwarf the current state of Israel in terms of GDP and population size. Also keep Church and State separate. All people should determine their destiny – not some well-meaning but poorly equipped religious ideology.
4. Think about this – what is more important? Houses, cars, clothes and other material goods, or human capital/potential? The greatest asset that the Palestinians have available is their human potential. Fellow Arabs should welcome them with open arms.

Maybe these suggestions are too fanciful or unrealistic options for a lasting solution. But heck, nothing else seems to have worked to date, so why not start some fresh thinking around this problem?

Devil - I wouldn't say to anyone don't post here - no matter how much I may think their posts are foolish.

Anyhow.. Coach... I see you went with F) then.

I think it's kind of sad you can't even acknowledge Christianity is a religion.

It certainly isn't a croquet club.

Fleurette, I strongly agree with your statement that the worlds great powers are becoming reminiscent of Nazi Germany.

The holocaust was meant to be something that the world would never forget, and we havn't forgotten that it did happen, but we do seem to have forgotten how Germany came to be in that position.

It seems some people like to believe that facism, in one form or another, is something we are immune to, but we are not.

Stripping away civil liberties, suppressing labour unions, concentration of media, the manufacturing of threats and perhaps most importantly, dehumanising our supposed enemies, this is happening here and around the world and it is very similar to what happended in Germany in the 1930s.

Sheree, I think your article is suitable to be submitted to the teacher, to obtain school marks. But as far as a rigorously intellectual assessment of the situation goes, it is far from adequate.

Indeed, one needs to be truthful and say it is idealism (in company with most merely humanistic thought). Other posters ought to have acknowledged as much. 'Let's all just be friends' is a good idea, and I am all for it. And would like to see some peaceful dialogue. But lasting peace doesn't, and will not happen that way.

Clearly, you fail to grasp the dynamic at work in the middle east, and amidst nations, and in a human heart - concerning the interplay of belief, and unbelief.

Your cursory historical overview - such as your summary of the Crusades - lacks depth.

When Islam conquered Asia Minor, Christian churches in many places were turned into mosques, and were given an inscription directed against Christians who still might be present: 'GOD DID NOT BEGET AND IS NOT BEGOTTEN'. Belief is a prime factor.

The utter unity which the eternal Son has with the eternal Father, through the power of the eternal Spirit was revealed and imparted to humanity - slap bang in the middle of the Middle East. 'Salvation is from the Jews', said Jesus, and then he poured out his life, so that it would be so, through forgiveness, and peace, flowing to us - now!

People and situations, and solutions with 'sweet appearances' of peace, repeat the mistakes of old, saying: 'Peace, Peace', where there can never be peace'.

Only the Prince of Peace can bring such to the human heart, and to nations.

Coachy boy,

Good to see some things (& people) never change.

Didn't stir you for a while but here is one:

You claimed 'Allah is not God'.

The Arabic bible of Van Dyk, God is called "allah" and Christian services and prayers pray for 'Allah'. So is the Bible 'wrong'?

In a way I admire you: you always get caught red handed but for some reason you hate of Islam and muslims keep bringing you back.

Can I suggest a hobby or yoga classes?

Fellow human,
the word "Allah" certainly means God.
I believe Egyptians Christians use "Allah" as the word for God.
But what they mean, then is 'The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'.
This is NOT what a Muslim means, when speaking of "Allah".
To every Muslim 'Allah' does not have a Son.
Since you feel a need to give Coach some advice, perhaps you could do with some too:
Why not do some Trinitarian and Chrisitan theology in your spare time!

Sage said:

"My religion asks me to believe that a man of about 100kg could walk on water. Can anyone top that?"

I thought Gough Whitlam did.

Surely the real point about the current troubles is that young men love fighting. And it has always been so. Shakespeare said that the main interests of young men in his time were "stealing, fighting, and getting wenches with child". Those who think that human nature will change are, in my opinion, the deluded ones.

Human nature has evolved over the last million years (many of our territorial and other instincts are found in apes and other animals), and is not about to change any millennium soon.

The role of religion is mainly as a label to identify the conflicting forces. Poverty and unemployment can exacerbate the love of fighting, but it is always there. Look at business. A large part of business activity is related to a form of warfare, albeit usually war without blood. Look at "price wars" "sales wars" and similar business terms.

The need to fight, to take risks and live dangerously, which characterises much of humanity, has resulted in us rising to amazing technical levels, and could also lead to our destruction.

Tennyson

I am familiar with Christian theology and understand its theories.
The point I was making to Coach was:

a) he missed the point of the article that we should work together towards a better world rather than his my 'God is better than yours'.

b) to get him to understand that religions are just ways of worship: absolute truth is personal and not universal. Thats why there are Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist and atheists each strongly believe in their faith. No religion replaced its predecessors.

All the best,
FH

Tennyson

Disregarding the author’s age for a minute, let’s not belittle her attempt no matter how idealistic it may sound. Idealism is not necessarily a bad thing if similar theories have been proven once before and have been put into practice.

Take for example the fact that Muslims and Jews have lived peacefully in the region formerly known as Palestine for years before the state of Israel was ever created. Then take the author’s example of Saladin’s tolerance of non-Muslims despite previous wars fought by Christians against Muslims.

To indulge in more historical detail (when the topic is in fact about Lebanon, religion, the current invasion and the crusades) would mean the author would have to write a thesis. Clearly you don’t expect a thesis having accused the author of submitting a school project.

“The utter unity which the eternal Son has with the eternal Father…'Salvation is from the Jews'.. and then he poured out his life, so that it would be so, through forgiveness, and peace, flowing to us - now!”

Sounds like someone is doing a bit of nonsensical rambling – School teacher would give you 0 for that!

Why should the fact that certain beliefs about monotheism (No God but Allah) be a hindrance to religious tolerance? The origins of that belief must be analysed in context. Mohammed was not just dealing with Christians and Jews but many people of pagan religions with many gods. Islamic monotheism wasn’t revolutionary but reinforced the same message as its predecessors. Ask the red neck Evangelical Americans what they have in common with Islam and they’ll tell you “nothing”.

So who exactly says that the Muslims want to wipe out anyone who doesn’t believe in the same God? Utter nonsense! All religions promote the understanding of Love. Love one another, love God. What makes you think religion can’t be used as a tool to promote peace? I believe it’s the best vehicle to promote tolerance.

The Jewish State of Israel is more secular than you think. Most Orthodox Jews do not associate themselves with the State.

Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWrAK4P-w3U&mode=related&search=

The Devil wrote

"...they are a divided people, the region is very much divided, and the people are being consumed by corrupt dictators"

Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland? Apparently not in this case. But the cap certainly fits.

It amazes me that otherwise sane and intelligent people cannot see that organized religion is nothing less than an evil, and a blight upon all of our lives.

The problem is not even limited to the fundamentalists, as Yasouna proposes. It is contained within the very concept of religion itself.

Necessarily, in order to attract followers and to propagate its belief systems, a religion has to be exclusive - i.e. to specifically exclude those who choose not to participate in its rites and rituals. This automatically creates an "us and them" disparity, which allows the next stage to assert itself: follow my leader.

And leaders will make rules, simply in order to subjugate and control their flock. One of these rules, inevitably, is that all other religions are evil except mine. (Are you listening Boaz? Coach?)

Given any pair of religions, this promotes conflict. Given multiple religions, each with a number of subgroupings within it that incubate additional fears and hatreds, the problem becomes exponential.

Sadly, even if we were suddenly to wake up to discover that there is, in fact, only one religion, the result would only be oppression and dictatorship. The religious elite has always got its jollies from telling the proles how they can and cannot live their lives. We can all envisage how exciting our existence would become, under their interpretations of holy writ.

This would in turn encourage rebellion, and form the seeds from which new religions or anti-religions would emerge.

So the only answer is to outlaw all religions, once and for all.

Or am I missing something?

Yup, Pericles I'm afraid you are missing something.

Your solution is to outlaw religion -

Before I continue, let me state I'm an avowed agnostic - and while some think that is a copout stance, let me tell you it isn't, it's just a realisation that you can't confirm religion one way or another, so it's foolish to say one is right - or wrong, as atheists do.

You can't simply outlaw religion, no matter how stupid it may be. For starters, religion thrives on oppression. Take a look at the roots of christianity. Or if you want a modern example, take a look at how keen the oppressed are on Islam.

Secondly, it's wrong. religion mightn't be right, but to prevent it certainly isn't. You have to start cracking down, and take a look at how the Chinese Communist party is behaving with the falun gong. Is that the road you want to take?

We can only educate people, and try to discourage them from imprinting their religous beliefs on their children.
That's the root of this problem - passing ingrained superstitions onto the next generation.

Yasouna,

1. Being a catholic does not make you a disciple of Jesus - if you believe that Allah can also save you like Jesus does. That is religious pluralism.
2. Eli, Elohim, may sound like Allah but has nothing in common. The word Allah was introduced to the Arabic bible centuries after Islam came to the scene. Allah was the name of a pagan Idol Worshipped by the Meccans even before Mohammad was born. His father’s a pagan was named Abd-Allah.
3. Jesus also told Peter “get behind me Satan…”. Jesus did not mean a church building when he said on this "rock" I will build my church… Peter is Simon’s nick name meaning stubborn like a rock. So-despite-our-weaknesses-the-church-which-is-the-body-of-Christ- will-prevail-for-ever,-until-He-returns-in-full-Glory-to-take-the-born-again-Christians-away-and-judge-the-rest.
4. Yes Mohammad was rejected in Mecca but started his conquest in Madinah.The Muslem calendar started with the migration (al-hejrah) to Madinah.
5. The barbaric nature of Islamic teaching is well recorded in the Qur’an. A true Muslem is a fighter for Allah.
6. The three religions in the Middle East are equally guilty and all capable of the same acts of revenge and atrocity. We have seen that in the 25 years of civil war in Lebanon for example. This is why I follow Jesus and not a Religion.
7. We agree on the last point that Islam cannot exist under any other regime but Allah’s theocracy. This is why Islam is aiming for world domination for survival. Islam is numerically growing at twice the rate of all other religions and governments put together.

Israel wants but to exist in peace. Her neighbours want to get rid of her and dump her in the sea. Where is your Christian compassion? Where is the Islamic compassion towards their Palestinian brothers and sisters?

Peace is just a dream for the world today as long as we have an arogant Islamic movement and an ignorant world to match.

Syncretism is not a solution either–it-is-a-hypnotic-form-of-delusion-let’s all be friends and forget that Jesus is the ONLY way to God.

Wake up – and may God open your eyes to his love and truth.

TurnRightThenLeft - I really enjoy reading your posts and I agree with everything you've said.

Coach,

a) "The word Allah was introduced to the Arabic bible centuries after Islam came to the scene. “

So?? It means "God" now. Deal with it.

b) "if you believe that Allah can also save you like Jesus does. That is religious pluralism"

Defintion of Pluralism: A system that includes individuals from groups differing in basic background experiences and cultures. Pluralism allows for the development of a common tradition while preserving the right of each group to maintain its cultural heritage. It implies mutual respect.

Mutual respect is what Yasouna has suggested. Nowhere does he suggest that all Catholics must believe in Allah. But most Catholics do believe in God so I don't get your point? It's the SAME God. All three religions believe in the same God.

Where does Jesus say one must not show tolerance for other religions? If anything he promoted this position. It is Fox News and other evangelical fundamentalists who falsify the true meaning of Christianity.

- What's your point about Medina?

- "The barbaric nature of Islamic teaching is well recorded in the Qur’an. A true Muslem is a fighter for Allah"

Wrong wrong wrong. Show me the proof of this in the Qur'an.

- "This is why I follow Jesus and not a Religion."

If you are a follower of Jesus then I renounce my Christian faith. To hell with it, if your views are synonymous with that of Jesus then show me the nearest temple of Buddha, I'm converting!

- If you think 25 years of civil war in Lebanon were caused by religion then you obviously haven't read the article. Maybe you didn't get past the first line.

- You just sprouted Zionist propaganda - Who wants to throw who in the sea? The people who are actually killing the Arabs in Israel or the Iranians who have not touched a hair on the heads of their Jewish community?

Solid proof - Giveth.

Hey MOZZA

well done mate !

At least you came up with a solution :) I've done this also, but though mine does indeed echo most of yours, I don't advocate Israel become a state of the USA.
The only solution to human/ethnic conflict that has EVER worked in that region is the part where you said "Move them to other Arab countries" and I support this for the same reasons you gave. (top marks)

One difficulty with your understanding of the 'United Arab' thing is in part the cause of the present problem. "Ethnicity" Iranians are very VERY 'Persian' :) and verrrry different from Arabs. Enough said on that.

PERICLES yes..I'm-a-watchin ya :) err where have you been? wasting time on the 'Legal abuse of animals thread'...goodness, your talents are much better utilized in threads like this.
But you STILLL don't understand 'Christianity' -*sigh*..much work still to be done there....

While your observations about 'Religion' in general are ok, TurnRightThenLeft makes the point about the 'roots of Christianity'.

CONTRAST:

1/ Oppressed Muslims FIGHT.
2/ Oppressed Christians share Christ.

The Muslims are STILL fighting, yet within 300 yrs the power of the 'Simple Gospel for a Sinful world' overtook the Roman Empire
which fed us to lions and made us the object of Grand Final fever while we were ripped to bits by wild animals.... now THAT is something :) and failure to examine WHY will be a blight on all agnostics and atheists.

Paul to the Ephesian Christians:

2:1 [As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,....

But

because of his great love for us, GOD, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.]

That message, changed the world of Rome, and it can change each of us.
Will we choose life...or death ? Pericles, this is an offer, not a gun to anyone's head.

...and Jesus said to the paralyzed man, "Son, your sins are forgiven"
This...is the Gospel.

I am sorry to tell you "Yasouna", but the joke appears to be on you;
Archeology, read here:http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/122/

And while you are studying Theocracies, Much like some other commentary, also include the Pantheon of New Age Marxoids and Cosmopolitan, or known as; "The useless idiots", before you become a member of those ranks.
Good Luck, and read some Essays here by various writers to find out where you sit on the Voyager Universalism to the Event Horizon.
A Pantheon of ; “New Age Cosmopolitan Useless Idiots and Apocalyptic Monkey IQ’ed” ; Patented by design.
People are a lot smarter than that; we hope.

Located here: http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/127/

Coach,

“The word Allah was introduced to the Arabic bible centuries after Islam came to the scene.”

You obviously know a lot more modern Arabic than I do. What word do Arabic speaking Christians and Jews use when English speakers use the word “God”? Perhaps Yasouna, who I take it actually knows some Arabic, could let us know.

Given that the central tenet of Islam is that “There is no God but God” (that is, there is only one God), could you enlighten us on what was the Arabic word for God for those early centuries before the word “Allah” was introduced?

“Islam cannot exist under any other regime but Allah’s theocracy”

This is the rubbish promoted by various nationalist movements in the Middle East. I’m surprised you have fallen for it. Islam has survived and thrived under a whole range of political regimes in its 1300 year history, including the British and Czarist Russian empires. The most successful Muslim countries today (for example Malaysia) are secular and democratic in their political organization. After the first four Caliphs, Muslim countries have only rarely toyed with theocracy: separation of political and religious authority has been the rule rather than the exception.

The uses Islam is being put to by various nationalist and ideological groups during this century represents a serious threat to world security, as well as to Muslims all over the world. We don’t help anyone by promulgating silly beliefs based on ignorance. I don’t have all the answers to the crisis facing Islam, but getting our basic facts straight would be a good start.

All-

Although possibly denied by some Muslims, all the monotheistic religions have their antecedents in earlier polytheistic religious and philosophical traditions. Christianity borrows heavily from Greek philosophy of pagan origin as well as from its Hebrew parent. Judaism, the original monotheistic religion in this stream, arose as the worship of Yahweh, the Hebrew war god, became dominant.

Music to my ears Snout:
The one consideration though was Zoroastrianism actually curved the original Judaic traditions, as indeed they were before then very war like and barbaric.
As it is displayed in What is known as The Book of Enoch 1; scribed in a language of Ancient Ethiopian hieroglyphics, to which is fragmented and missing in large parts, thus the existence of a transcript of the Original as you so correctly put was by Greek writers, and some how was locked away in Slovenia. This is known as Slovak Enoch, suspected to be slightly different than the absolute original; perhaps due to translation difficulties other than conspiracy. None the less, an unproven Hypothesis.
But one thing that has become clear is that Mohammad’s, and the Islamic Version is some what well and truly plagiarized, both by Anthropological and Archeological perspective: See Here: http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/58/
You can planeally see the Persian Influence of Zoroastrian Monotheism. And is only given credence by other Theological pantheons of universalisms and corrupt intellect and contaminate Epistemology. Islam becomes a part of the Ideological pantheon of Physical being, equally as severe as Marxoid philosophy, then introduce an over bearing Leftist ego, then we have big trouble, or End of Days.
Some may disagree perfuseally, but there is an interesting perspective here: http://majorityrights.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/124/

If we drop the Ancient Middle East for a moment, and head on to The Ancient South America's , I’m sure a few more answers are forth coming than what we have now. Liken it to; we have been fed a red herring.

Hello Fleurette,
1. Sure, Sheree is free to write brief articles. But it is merely spin doctoring to utilise the Crusades as illustrative of your point, if you miss the dynamics at work during the time. Please take a moment to read this scholarly summary:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/118/52.0.html

2. It is quite incorrect to claim that Islamic monothesm reinforced the same message as its predecessors. Examine some teaching from the sources:
3. Jesus said ‘You have heard it was said ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy’. But I say to you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (Matthew 5:44). This is a wonderfully new attitude toward enemies.
4. The Qur’an contains commands to kill and fight (literally, "try to kill"). Most are found in the second (verses 190, 191, 193, 244), fourth (vv. 76, 84, 89, 91) and ninth (vv. 5, 12, 14, 29, 36, 123) suras. The Arabic verbs in all of these verses are related to the verb “qatala” which means “to kill”. Allah loves those who kill in his way (Q.61.4). This is not what Jesus taught. It is just not the same message, Fleurette! (You may wish it was).
5. Personal stories help; if indeed you are willing to consider them: Daniel Shayesteh, a former Iranian Fundamentalist, once on a violent mission for Allah, came to know Christ, and gives personal experiential reasons as to why: ‘Islam is not the religion of peace’. He loves his Muslim friends. But not Islam! (Google his name, and hear his story).
6. I am not shattered to learn you awarded me 0 out of 10 for an insight into the utter unity of the Father and the Son; and Jesus claim that Jews are the source of salvation (John 4:22). To hear me, you would have to let go of your theories.

When you've got God/Allah or Yaweh on your side,there is no need for logic or self doubt.The world suddenly becomes a lot simpler and Big Daddy will protect you.Follow that Holy Book and do as you are told.It is the perfect ruse for anyone to control the masses.

Now we can all fight over who has the best concept of God.Would Freud call this rational behaviour?Should we all be committed to the asylum?

Now who put those words in Big Daddy's Holy Book?

'Behold the Lamb!'

(... not a call to arms, or biffo, but to a profound review of what it means to speak and do the truth, in a world that has lost its way).

All-,

Not sure if I follow all your post, but the proposition that Zoroastrianism influenced the development of Hebrew monotheism is makes sense given the geographical and historical setting of the early development of Judaism. I don’t know a lot about the cultural antecedents of Islam, but I understand that the Persian religion had some influence on near contemporaneous Gnostic Christian traditions as well.

My point, though, is that the names we might use for God – whether Allah, Jesus, Yahweh or Azura Mazda – or whether we even see the need to name a God – are culturally (and linguistically) determined. They've developed within a history of ideas. We can debate whether one cultural interpretation is superior to another: whether one nails the human experience of the ineffable any better than another; but as soon as we use our own religious beliefs to justify war, or murder, or terrorism, or any other denial of the dignity of others, we have crossed that subtle line into madness.

Fair enough TRTL, perhaps the word "outlaw" was a little strong, since it does bring with it overtones of oppression, and oppression begets revolutionaries, and revolutionaries are generally considered heroic.

So perhaps we should start by eliminating subsidies. Being a religious sect has always meant tax relief - do away with it. They have special treatment in any number of subtle ways, from noise pollution (church bells, muezzin etc.) to favourable zoning laws. End such favouritism.

Then we should move on to education. Religion should be addressed within the education system along with all the other odd human behaviours, such as the practices of the headhunter tribes of Borneo, or Victorian spiritualists.

We should also begin to reject religion as an excuse by which an individual avoids responsibilities, or as a justification for unsocial behaviours.

In short, it is time to end the concept of religion having "favoured nation" status, and start treating it as a disease from which an enlightened humanity needs to be fully cured.

Boaz, you still don't get it. My point is not whether one particular religion is superior to another ["CONTRAST: 1/ Oppressed Muslims FIGHT. 2/ Oppressed Christians share Christ."] but whether organized religion has any place at all in our society.

For a start, without it there would be no need for headlines such as "Muslims and Christians must learn to work together as a unified body in the Middle East."

Before they learned to walk upright, monkeys lived in trees and fought with other monkeys outside their own group.
Then ,after learning to walk upright, they began to learn how to use weapons instead of their teeth and as time passed, the weapons became more and more sophisticated.
But they were still monkeys.
The highest echalon of monkeys installed themselves as leaders, prime ministers, popes and ayatollahs thus making sure they got the cream of everything.
Religion should be used as a comfort blanket, not as an excuse for war.
Every wise monkey knows that.

Firstly, boaz:

"1/ Oppressed Muslims FIGHT.
2/ Oppressed Christians share Christ."

Fair point, but look at the numbers. Islam is a huge religion. I've heard figures like one in four people worldwide are islamic, and while I'm not sure if that's true, it probably isn't far off.

The question that needs to be asked is - how many of these people are poor / oppressed?

Compare that to Christianity - yes, there are plenty of poor Christians, but the proportions are out of whack. The worlds most powerful people are christians. If the shoe was on the other foot, the fundamentalist Christians would fight just as those of fundamentalist islam - we've the lessons of the IRA to show us what that looks like.

Pericles - what you propose would suit me right down the line - i've very little need of ritualistic religion. The problem here, is there are people who see the world through those eyes. I can think of them as misguided, sure, but no doubt they think the same of me. The crux here, is how exactly is secularism different to a religion?

Try this perspective - each religion (except maybe the Buddhists, and you gotta love em for it) thinks their way is the only way, and the others are all wrong - how is this different to agnosticism / atheism?
The only real difference I've seen, is that agnosticism is still tolerant and accepting of the other faiths - a secular society would rob them of that, so in a way, secularising the nation would result in it resembling a kind of religion in terms of tolerance... I think (does that make sense to anyone else?).

What I'd like to see, is ways to have religions be more tolerant and intermixed - one big happy faith family, something the author was kind of getting at in a more compartmentalised fashion.
I agree with your proposals pericles, but thats as far as I'd want to take it - strip religions of any props to set them apart, but live and let live.

Which one of you learned people knows the mind of god? Who in this forum is sufficiently bigoted, to claim their religion is the right one or better than another?

“In order to attract followers and to propagate its belief systems, a religion has to be exclusive - i.e. to specifically exclude those who choose not to participate in its rites and rituals. This automatically creates an "us and them" disparity…”

Spot on, Pericles.

After writing the last post, the thought came to me in a clearer fashion - if we go too far in limiting any faith, the secular view becomes a faith in itself.

Aside from the ritualism, secularism is simply another way of viewing the world - from my view, it's the only logical way, but most people in the world would disagree with me. We can't discount that entirely, or agnostics are no better.

And that's what I'm getting at. Atheists and Agnostics look down their nose at religion as some kind of stupid fancy - I can admit that at times I do think that, but that makes me just like them.

It is still forcing one view upon another, and while I have no religious beliefs, one core belief I do have is that that is wrong - while I'd love to see everyone come to their senses and dump religion, I can't make them do it.
Were I to do it, I would be no better than an Imam exhorting his followers to forcibly convert others or the Priest condemning abortions.

I fear I still have a ways to go, because I still put the agnostic view on a pedestal - we all take our views more seriously than others, and that's the problem.

It's going to be hard, but simply put, we need a society that doesn't take religion seriously, one way or the other. You can believe without needing to persuade, it's hard, but I think thats the way we need to go.

Bit of a paradox isn't it. I'm trying to persuade people not to persuade. Oh well. I didn't say it was perfect.

Dear Bennie

not quite that simple. Why in the world should it worry you, or anyone else if a religion proclaims itself as the way to God, to the exclusion of all others ?

Your simple solution is.... DO NOTHING. Of course, it might be a worry if you were TAXED for not believing, or PERSECUTED... but if all you have to do is say 'no' or change the chanel, why are you so adamant that offering salvation through Christ is such a bad thing ?

Bear with me, as I wish to proclaim the gospel to you now: (u_r free to stop here)

God, has revealed Himself through the people and history of Israel, and finally and completely in the man Jesus, the Messiah, Christ.

We know this because of the signs Jesus did during His ministry.
The reports of such signs are reliable and trustworthy.

Jesus did the following:

-Healed the sick. (born blind, crippled for life, demonic posession)
-Raised the dead. (Lazarus)
-Stilled the storms (power over nature)
-Fed multitudes with 5 loaves etc... on 2 separately documented occasions.
-Turned water into Wine
-Walked on Water.
-Died (for our sins) and Rose from the dead. (The ultimate 'sign')

The signs were done for the following reason: (John 20.31)

[But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.]

Bennie, notice the words 'may' ? You can choose to disbelieve, reject, close your heart. No-one is going to force you to accept this.

If we are deluded in believing that God has entered the affairs of mankind, and revealed Himself, then as Paul said:

"We, of all men are most to be pitied"

So, if we are in error here, pity us, don't be angry. No-one is forcing you to even read this... if u did.

warm regards
Boaz

Dear TurnRight....

I love the honesty in your posts :)

Looks like the return of the Nephilim B_D, and by the way, get a book called; “Alien Intrusion”; by Gary Bates. Or the Audio CD. I am Fairdinkum about this David. Buy it, and you will be pleased with the purchase, and it is quite revealing. With absolute impeccable references and Intellectual minds at work.
They are not Agnostics by the way, some need to actually look Agnostics up, and then hide their heads with embarrassment when they find out what it actually is.
Dr Evil (PhD)

turnrightthenleft ...then inside out.

tennyson's_one_far-off_divine_event - You admirably say:

“Jesus said ‘You have heard it was said ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy’. But I say to you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (Matthew 5:44). This is a wonderfully new attitude toward enemies.”

Then how do you explain Bush, Blair, Howard, Berlusconni et al?

K£vin,
As I see it ... Bush, Blair, and Howard are primarily pragmatists.
(Many humanists are mere pragmatists too). Their decisions are often unwise and erroneous. They are often wise, too (which many are often too cynical to acknowledge).

Are they Christian? A Christian is one who trusts in Christ, amidst many wrong decisions. Whether they do that, I do not know, personally.

I have never had to function as an international politician. How hard would that be?.
They are leaders of countries which seem noble enough. But how noble are we all?

Number one priority, for people and leaders, seems to be the protection of "the economy".
Christian teaching is to share what you have. We could all take a review of that one.

Certainly, the US seems to have adopted a mandate to act as global policeman.
What would the globe look like if they didn't?
When Statehood is mixed with a half-baked 'pseudo-messianic mandate' it can prove a dangerous cocktail.

Some more questions for you:
Do the actions of Bush, Blair, Howard invalidate Jesus teaching?
Do the failures of Christians generally, invalidate the teaching received?

Is the development of a "just war theory", to restrain evil, a negation of Jesus teaching?
(I don't think so. I think the Allied response to Hitler was necessary, for example).

Is protection of people vulnerable to explosion, part of the action of genuine love?
Perhaps we all need to do some "just war" theology!
Perhaps more importantly, our decisions need to flow from a trust in Christ.

TRTL, you say "if we go too far in limiting any faith, the secular view becomes a faith in itself."

But there is absolutely no need to "believe" in the absence of something. Since by definition it does not exist, there is no requirement to express any opinion at all, so non-belief cannot in itself constitute a faith.

The tooth fairy, father christmas, the easter bunny, the golem, all exist only in an individual's fantasy world. They do not exist outside these imaginary universes, so there is absolutely no need for anyone to ascribe their actual non-existence to a need to have faith in their non-existence.

Having agreed with you that there is no point in actively preventing people from holding their delusions, I cannot accept that in order to maintain an unwillingness to be complicit in their belief that there actually is a bogeyman under the bed, I should be required to adopt this as a faith.

Should someone actually introduce me to a bearded, apple-cheeked old man who spends Christmas Eve flying round the world behind a bunch of reindeer doling out presents, I shall be the very first to shake him by the hand and admit to having been wrong. In the meantime, it doesn't require any "faith" on my part to reject the concept entirely.

It might be a case in today's world as Socrates once said:
Out with the Gods and in with the Good.

The twisted sort of God that George W's American right-wing followers now seem to believe in, might make us agree with Socratic philosophy.

Maybe it is what the world needs so much of today, using Socratic reasoning as a balance with religous faith, replacing Biblical folklore with just plain commonsense.

Fair point Pericles - my comparison of secularism in terms of being a 'faith' as it were relates primarily to the concept of tolerance - religions are notorious for treating other faiths with disdain: is this not the way of the atheist?

The point I'm making is that I couldn't agree more that religion is foolishness, but that's just my view, and if I was to be too firm or aggressive in forcing my view, my tolerance approach would rival that of the religous groups.

One small quote,love thy neighbour?has it got any meaning?,if it has then more people should give it a try,or change it to read show tolerance to all human beings,and somehow,it may replace,race colour and creed,now is that not CHARITY?,if IGNORANCE can be overcome,what a WONDERFUL WORLD THIS WILL BE

Somehow I thought you might say the things you have tennyson's_one_far-off_divine_event. Where I do agree with you is that the actions, thoughts and often erroneous teachings of 'struggling' Christians do not invalidate the teachings of Christ. Where I take exception to Bush, Blair et al ( and I suppose you on this occasion) is that they try to justify their megalomania as being something inherently Christian. Personally, I do not believe for a second that Christ himself would sign up to a ‘just war’ theory – to me, such a teaching/belief represents a complete antithesis to the lived example of his own life, and I do not believe anything he is supposed to have said would advocate such a doctrine either.

Whilst Bush and Blair may choose to call some ‘unthinking’ Christians to arms to fight their very ‘unjust war’ – their actions and words seem to echo more, your sentiments regarding Islam:

“The Qur’an contains commands to kill and fight (literally, "try to kill"). Most are found in the second (verses 190, 191, 193, 244), fourth (vv. 76, 84, 89, 91) and ninth (vv. 5, 12, 14, 29, 36, 123) suras. The Arabic verbs in all of these verses are related to the verb “qatala” which means “to kill”. Allah loves those who kill in his way (Q.61.4). “

rather than anything you could find about or from Jesus in the gospels.

Whilst some may believe they are protecting people and therefore doing right by killing others (and I can understand why this could potentially be seen as noble too, by many), this is not what Christ would have done and therefore people [Bush and Blair] should not undertake such actions in his name.

In the case of Iraq especially, how can you claim they were protecting people (more than 100,000 people dead) – they are unquestionably the aggressors – which is why the majority of the Western world consider this to be an unjust war.

K£vin,
A word or two - you read too much of your opinion of me, into my comments.

1. They are not my sentiments about Islam (as you say). These are found in the Qur'an.
2. I have not said the war in Iraq is justified. Nor have I said it was undertaken to protect people. Nor have I defended Bush and Blair and Howard.

Please stick to what I have said, if you want to criticise my comments. I won't mind that

Then I apologise unreservedly tennyson's_one_far-off_divine_event. I thought you were being rhetorical. Your questions were genuinely much more inquisitive than I initially imagined. Sorry.

My point regarding the examples you refer to from the Qur'an was not to question the authenticity of your statement but rather to simply point out that in my opinion, the Bush/Blair doctrine seems to have much more in common with this approach to the world than their own, stated, "christian" approach.

Again, sorry for any predjudice displayed in my last post and for misunderstanding your intentions.

thanks K£vin,
yes they were genuinely exploratory questions.

It was a pleasant surprise to be heard on a second attempt response, on this forum.
These forums are frequently 'set 'em up and knock 'em down' conversational affairs.
That is the common fare.

Gracious words, are generally reserved, only for those of like mind on any given topic. And labels are readily applied to all who fail to fit the mould.

I guess most of us like to be heard, even if our view is deemed to be "a dud" - by those far wiser!

As a contributor from a Christian perspective, I am quite aware that the right wing of Christianity does plenty of damage, as does the left. However, it is a "brave" - and hyper-proud - person who sets out to speak words, that they consider are 'far wiser' than Jesus.
Cheers

To Kevin and others.

Regarding Bush/Blair/Howard .... and the relationship between their behavior and Christ's teaching.

Personally, I struggle terribly with seeking to implement 'literally' what Jesus said in some of the sermon on the mount.
Here are the reasons.

While he taught "Love your enemies" etc...
He also also said:

-"If you eye sins against you...GOUGE it out"
-"If your hand sins against you CUT IT OFF"
-"If any man will follow me HE MUST HATE his mother, father,brother etc"

We need to be careful about applying 2006 values and literary understanding of AD30 mindset and methods of getting a point across.

Romans 13 is the most appropriate to apply to the Leaders of a country. (Please read it)

Clearly, leaders have a responsibility with the SWORD (or the tank or F-16 etc) to protect the populace. "Rulers are not a deterrent to good, but to evil" "he does not carry the sword in vain" etc...
The principle here is 'Just War' (deter evil)

Our Lords teaching, is something that can be applied at the personal level and the National level, but NOT Literally as translated in most English Bibles..... (I prefer to keep both of my sinning hands, legs and eyes :)

There is a recorded incident of a Catholic Priest who told an Indian tribe 'Love your enemies'.... don't fight them. The result was 100% massacre and the end of that tribe.

Perhaps we should 'restrain' with 'reasonable force' an enemy who is trying to cut our daughters throat ? This is indeed 'loving' one's enemy, as opposed to grabbing the shotgun and blowing his brains out.

When I sat with the brother of one of the 13 terror suspects, in Melb last week, I have to say the most prominent emotion I felt was compassion, in spite of all I say about Islam here.
See how I go at the protest rally on Saturday :) come visit me in hospital k. Might be 1 against 500 or more. Hope they don't have knives.

No one wants to go to either heaven or hell and leave this world the way it is.

What we now desperately need now is not statesmen, too often people who like to strut the world stage like our re-born John Howard, usually leaving not much grace behind.

Maybe we need strong women, but if we do need men, let them be like Nelson Mandela who changed arpathaidist minds by the simple act of the granting of forgiveness.

Or in the same vein as Mandela, the choice would have to be Mikhail Gorbachev who too like Mandela realised that political change also needs forgivenness as well as the wisdom to take the overhead view and look at both sides like the true global jurist our world of today needs so much.

Such persons have not the minds of political strategists or social engineers, but minds more like excellent physicians who would use the best of their knowledge to save a patient, whatever their crime. After all, one does not have to be madly religous to know it was what the young Jesus was trying to get across in His Sermon on the Mount.

Indeed, let a reborn UN have leaders like the two above, whether they be man or women.

Bushbred,

Good comments as usual.

Boaz, Kevin and Tennyson,

One word: Liviticus! Keep up the 'hate faith' then don't forget to close every comment with the 'God is Love' claim. Yeah right!

Fellow_Human, I see I have been rounded up, labelled, and put in my place.
Looks like the paradoxical qualities of Agape Love are confounding the wise, as ever.

Was that Leviticus you meant to spell ?
(Or are you livered, embittered, and cussing in one word - "Liviticus" ?)

If it is the first, were you seeking an exposition of a verse?
Or a theological justification for its place in the received canon of Scripture?
Is it a smooth stone, carefully aimed, designed to demolish the Christian house of cards - in an instant?

tennyson's_one_far-off_divine_event
There is nothing more you can do or say.
You are knowledgeable and wise, so you will realize what I mean.
The key to unlock the answer, after all this time, it was easy to decipher.

Hi Sheree, Please read and understand the words of Jesus:

Jesus said:

" My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world. "

As a follower of Christ, My Land is the Land of Christ;I am a foreigner on this Earth; I am a citizen of Heaven; My abode, My eyes are on Jesus Kingdom.

"If God is for us, who is against us?.

He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him"

Michael, I'd like to understand what you're implying, but the meaning is unequivocal - it could be interpreted in a number of ways and appears to have little meaning other than asking a series of questions.

Tennyson,

My comment was to mirror the behaviour of disrespect of someone else scripture and faith. Obviousley you didn’t like, so why do it to others?

All religions are simply ‘way of worship’ and best practices are the most accepting to others. So far you and your mob are failing that test..Yet for some reason you seem to advocate love and acceptance of other.

“Or a theological justification for its place in the received canon of Scripture?
Is it a smooth stone, carefully aimed, designed to demolish the Christian house of cards - in an instant? “

A sophisticated comment: my point was much simpler: religions can’t be polarised into religions of war and peace. Hitler thought of himself as a good devout Chrisitian and he was practising and quoting from the Bible. Religions mirror the inside of people who are good or bad.

Take it easy,

Hi Michael,

Jesus also said that the Kingdom of Heaven is not something that cannot be attained here on earth. In fact he challenged previous Old Testament-esque beliefs which restricted most people into believing that the Kingdom of Heaven was something in the sky, something only seen in the after life. Many of his parables illustrate this point.

(off the top of my head there are all those parables about the seeds and the sower etc.) Basically Jesus used language ingrained into earthly and material things in order to describe a truth about the Kingdom of Heaven - that it can in fact be found on earth. That was what he was all about!

Jesus may not be from this world but he was God manifested in human form (incarnate) in order to illustrate that God is not an almighty and distant being but rather a compassionate and loving God. He also said that Loving one another was the most important commandment.

So the article only aims to incorporate the above points so that aimless killing and fighting will not continue in the name of religion - or that people will not continue to think that religion is really responsible for the current conflicts.

Dear Fellow_human,
Huh?
You take it easy too.

Fellow_Human,

This article is about the kingdom of heaven and not the brothel of Mohammad that is described in your religion.

You criticise Christians for not having love. Again I ask you what do you know about love?

Allah did not die for his people did he?

I pray that you and all mislead religions of this world discover God's love and accept His invitation to become His children in His kingdom.

Christianity is not about just being nice and caring for one another - although it is important - but about understanding and accepting God's way of salvation.

Salvation (being one with God - through Christ - enabled by the Holy Spirit) is by faith (in Him alone) not by our works and deeds. You don't have to blow yourself up anymore to impress our God.

God has saved us once for all... so why do you still follow an ancient peganistic religion instead of the real GOD?

Wisdom comes only from God and not from man. Ask for it and you will see the lie you have been fed all these years.

It is easy to follow the crowd and conform to a religion - but to follow Jesus takes real guts.

Do you have what it takes?

"It is easy to follow the crowd and conform to a religion - but to follow Jesus takes real guts" - Coach

Coachy boy, you're just not listening. Though to be fair, I suppose you kind of have to edit out the parts you don't like.

You want to talk paganistic? lets start with witch burning. Glad it's not done anymore, but for a contemporary issue, how's the catholic stance on condoms working for Africa these days? Or aren't they the 'right' type of christian?
Perhaps we should all indulge in some 'paganistic' ritual, where we pretend bread is flesh and wine is blood, and all devour somebody symbolically. Wait, sorry, that's one of your rituals... sorry, I got confused with the pagans for a second. Let me just consult with a witch-doctor, oops, I meant priest.
Cause priest aren't part of a religion apparently. They're just, gosh darn it, mighty fine emissaries of god, who can understand him oh so much better than the rest of us plebians. that's why the church was allowed to rule europe during the dark ages. They were just so darn enlightened they managed to keep science and medicine back for decades. Good on em, right? that just leads to naughty things like stem cell research.

You say it's easy to follow a crowd and conform to a religion. I say, it sure is. You've done it admirably.

Coach,

I am beginning to think you are an automated software or a 10 year old boy because you don’t get bored of throwing the same crappy comments over and over again.

“Allah did not die for his people did he?”

In our faith he doesn’t need to.

“I pray that you and all mislead religions of this world discover God's love and accept His invitation to become His children in His kingdom”

Whoever thought of the above statement needs immediate medical attention: a sofa and a therapist.

Enjoy your version of Religion, and let others enjoy theirs.

Salam,

The variant nature of Moses, Christ and Mohamet will mean how their followers will view the very nature of God as lived by them and spoken of in their teachings. What we really believe about our God is expressed in the very nature of our actions and attitudes. Though they as we violate the image of the ideals of our God, there is confession and responsibility to turn away from sinful actions. So we must examine what actions they turned away from and what actions they believed were sanctioned by their God.

Moses was involed in establishing family nationalism and laws for Israel so God was involved almost exclusively in the goals of that vision - not world domination - they were to be a light to the nations.

Mohamet in his early life was impressed by the 2nd Talmud so focused on the idealism of national unity under monotheism. However when opposition arose to his teachings, was involved in enforcing monotheism by death/or/submission upon opponents and focused upon world domination with his understanding of religious law.

Christ stated his kingdom was not political but spiritual and submitted himself to his political persecutors. The worship of the followers of these faiths is the worship of the character, attitudes and actions the leaders sanctioned as expressing the very nature of God. Worship of God for Christ's followers is not the worship of a self centered being up in the sky who demands out submission. It's the worship of the idealism of character, purity of attitudes, heroism and selfless actions, the supremacy of wisdom, the immagination of creativity, the blessedness of relationships that enhance life and community. Man was not created to obey laws, but laws were given to define boundaries for wayward man. Obeying laws and rituals does not define who we really are, they are merely social institutions

Cont:
For every man the very God we believe in is expressed in the character and motives of who we are. The conflicting nature of the three teachers will never be accepted by all. For instance a Christian cannot accept the nature of Mohamet as to his view that God sanctioned the marriage of adults to six year old infant children, of sex with 9 year old wives, the agressive murder of opponents, and the taking of females as sex slaves [still practised today in Africa and Indonesia], the practise of honour killings [as practised by Muslim Australians] etc.

These practises conflict with the very basis of how we as Christ's followers view life as designed by God to live in community. Someone has to denounce certain behaviours as not of God before reconciliation can occur. Because these views will influence the boundaries of law making, and how we live in community. If the behaviour of Mahomet is the set standard for society then the nature of the behaviour of the Middle Eastern cultures will be the standard of society.

Philo,

Glad you joined coach in the tree house.
Enjoy your 'philo'sophy sessions together.
:)

How can anyone talk about co-operation between Christians and Muslims when their beliefs and attitudes are as far apart as the east is from the west (literally speaking).

In-the-true-Fellow_human-fashion-you-have-proved-once-more-that-you-cannot-engage-intellect-with-discussions-about-your-religion.

In fact the sum total of your faith is in a "religious system" and not a relationship with the true God of the universe. If you were at all human this notion would have bothered you.

Islam believes that he Allah is “the god” but to them he is still unknown and unknowable.

Jesus is God walking on earth – God in every aspect of the world – and human in evry aspect of the word. The main difference is that He was without sin.

Mohammad – was a mere human – like the rest of us a sinner in need of salvation. He never promised salvation to his followers because he could not give it. He never met the God of salvation.

This is very serious F_H and if I were you I wouldn’t run away from the truth and hide in your pride following a pederast and his false pagan god.

On the love subject you need to know that the god you are searching for (through Allah and his prophet} loves you and died for you so you can be saved from the fires of hell.

It is not like the Qur’an repeatedly warn of hell only for unbelievers (in islam) – the true hell is reserved for those who don’t acknowledge God’s death on the cross. That is you F_H.

No philosophy, psychology, or tree-house-games here.

You need to live up to your name and become a fellow human by joining God’s family. Or enjoy hell for ever.

Jesus says to you: ”here I am I knock at your door, would you open the door and let me in to have fellowship with you?”

What is your answer to him F_H? How would you answer your creator F_H? How long are you going to run from Him and hide behing the false god?

Listen if you have ears

“…you-cannot-engage-intellect-with-discussions-about-your-religion.”

You must be kidding coach? Isn’t that so much like the pot calling the kettle? At least you make me laugh... in a sad sort of way.

FH, I must agree. The tree house is rocking…

Coach,
Please avoid the personal confrontation, allow the Holy Spirit to convict and convince of truth.

The Old Covenant of Law given by Moses reflects the maturity of understanding they had at that time of what was the nature of God. However by the end of the OT a 1,000 years later and being exposed to all types of cultural and intellectual influences the Israeli society had developed sectional groups holding various attitudes and understandings. The text we have of the TO reflects a development alone a line of what was deemed to be most honourable and true. However Orthodox Judaism rejects as inferior anything other than the Torah.

Christians study the whole set of selected writings of the history of Israel and their relationship to God we call the Old Testament. When Jesus Christ entered the teaching scene he dealt with matters of attitude and motives; rather than laws and rituals which characterised the religious heirarchy. The cannon of the New Testament has been formed on what expresses the purity of heart and forgiving nature of God towards sinners. Its primary message is forgivness and reconciliation for violators of the laws. God is not willing that any should perish, fall foul of society and end up socially rejected.

Mohamet was deeply influenced by the Coptic Christians from which he draws his references to Jesus. However he saw in the community of strict Jews that developed the Babylonian Talmud a society that impressed him as being sons of Abraham. From that he envisaged a whole nation observing one value system [one god]. However from his national tradition there was no historical heirarcy or lineage to check his theology so the Quor'an is merely his view of God and His view of how God is revealed in society

Cont:
For the Jews they had a long history of tried laws that were taught from infancy so in the sphere of thier influence they were accepted. However Mohamet wished to enforce a value system that had no tradition in his society upon a diverse range of people and tribes. The only way it could be done was by warlike methods. Mohamet immature in the traditions of developing a unified society by education could do no more than threaten and murder his opponents to bring his dream to reality.

For followers of Mahomet to now be reconciled to Jews and Christians they must reject the warlike attitudes espoused by their prophet and his teachings to war with Jews and Christians and his immature understandings of how God is revealed in Society and recognise God is graceous to his enemies. Followers who ignore the Quor'an and adapt to society make good citizens, those that follow the Quor'an and the lifestyle of their prophet are terrorist at heart. Their attitude to murder will never change to accept anything other than the pride of his teachings and life. Similarly it is with Christians the more they read of Christ Jesus the more they wish to follow his lifestyle and teachings. Passionate? Yes! Murderous? Not likely!

Coach, what you are incapable of understanding is the secular view.

The agnostic sees one man step forth, claiming "my god is great, and is part of no mere religion. One day the masses shall be convinced".

He then sees another man step forth, and say the same thing. And another.

One calls himself Christian. One calls himself Muslim. One calls himself Jewish.

They are all utterly convinced that god has shown their religion. (Yes I said religion, and you're a part of one Coach whether you like it or not) the way. They are all convinced all others are wrong.

Well, see, I'm afraid I can just as easily heed the words of the muslim or Jewish faiths.
They all have needless ritualism, and are burdened with an overabundance of history and violence.

You have a religion Coach. And it is no better than anyone else's, except in your eyes and the eyes of those like you, so you can drop the 'holier than thou' attitude. That's what's really responsible for all this religious violence. And you're perpetrating it.

The nature of the God we believe in will be reflected by the very nature of our behaviour, attitudes, actions, wisdom, creativity and nurture of others. If our view of God is judgmental and totalitarian then that will reflect how we view life,others and how we will believe laws should be written.

The kingdom of heaven for Christians will reflect the pureist of motives, and most righteous of behaviour that will bless all men. It will be a personal response to love God with all our heart, mind and strength, and unconditionally love our neighbours even as we ought to love ourselves. This is an ideal that few pray for each day.

The kingdom of heaven is not a political state governed by religious laws[Taliban for instance]. It is the personal state of allowing our view of God to guide our thoughts and motives.

Well said Philo; Xenophanes, a Greek philosopher living circa 500 BCE, had an understanding of God
that is unsurpassed by any of the expounders of the major religions of the world.
Xenophanes was addressing all men when he wrote:

One God …

One god, alone among gods and alone among men is the greatest.
Neither in body does he nor in mind resemble the mortals.
Always in one place he abides: he never is moving;
Nor is it fitting for him to change now hereto, now thereto.
Effortless he swings the world by mere thought and intention.
All of him is sight; all is knowing; and all is hearing.


The perfect truth ...

The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us; but in the course of time,
Through seeking we may learn, and know things better.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor will he know it; neither of the gods,
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The perfect truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.

(from Karl R. Popper's "Conjectures and Refutations", and "The Self and Its Brain")

Coach,

Put simply, the will to co-exist should focus on what we have in common rather what our differences are.
From an average Muslim like myself, I believe we have the commandments in common with Christians and Jews. Only God can judge our intents and actions. Now I can live with that and love and respect my neighbour.

I don’t need to philosophise what God is or isn’t and it should not matter. We are still at the early days of learning about flies, bees and we started learning about ourselves and our secrets. How can you be so arrogant to believe you understand God or creation and claim to be in God’s family?

Let me use your term: ‘God family’ people don’t talk about God at all. They clear their intent, do good, give the needy and treat others as they would like to be treated. These values are Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc..

You should worry about your own actions and intent and let others do the same :)

Reason, Turnright,

Good to read your comments as always.

And wonderful to read your comments Fellow Human.

What the Coach/Philo brigade fail to understand is that it is how we treat each other that is important. By continuing this rant of "my way is the only way", they simply alienate themselves from many people who are normally accepting of religion even though they don't follow it themselves (people like me).

FH, you have written a great deal about religion - yet not once have I felt that you have judged me or attempted to persuade me to your particular religion; the same cannot be said of the extremist christians on OLO.

There are other christian posters who can put forth their POV without insulting or judging the rest of us (humanity), I wish that these extremists could just step outside themselves - just once, and take a good hard look at themselves. If they did this then they would understand why I fear them just as much as I fear extremists from Islam.

The only difference between Islam and Christianity is that Christianity has more power and influence in the wealthier nations. Apart from that, the basic ideology of each faith has the same roots and very similar philosophies.

Scout, fellow human - you have hit the nail on the head. Religion would not be a source of conflict if the fundamentalists on all sides did not have the compulsive need for conversion.

Take a look at the buddhists. When was the last time you heard of them inciting large scale conflict?

Or the hindus - I'll grant, kashmir has it's share of violence, but I rather suspect it's more of a political matter - as any valued & disputed piece of land will be.

The shinto seem pretty relaxed as well. We could all do well to take a leaf out of the less aggressive religious worldview.

You are all right in believing all religions have things in common – mostly they all follow rules, laws and rituals.

None – not one – can guaranty salvation though.

There is one God, one truth, one way to the kingdom of heaven that belongs to Him.

By repenting from your selfish ways and accepting Jesus as your personal saviour and lord of your life, you enter the kingdom and become a brother to Jesus and an adoptive son to God almighty. You are in His family for ever.

Your sins are forgiven, and you no longer need to DO good stuff to impress God. He has DONE it all on the cross.

Most of you will find this intolerable and simplistic. But this is the GOOD NEWS that true Christians are trying to proclaim for the last 2000 years.

Religiosities have no place in the kingdom of God (on this side of the cross). There was a time when that was important – we call it the Old Testament. Now Jesus has done away with that concept and Has sacrificed himself for humanity.

Those who refuse to “get it” are doomed.

The key to heaven is Jesus. Not religion.

As humans our spirit reflects the very nature of the God in which we believe. Compare the nature of the characters from the sourse material of Moses, Christ Jesus and Mohamet. Their very life and actions reflected what they believed about God.

F_H seems to wish to take us back to some pagan understanding of the god who is remote and unknowable and is not a God as Christians see expressed in our lives. We are then merely doing things to appease that cellestrial God. Christianity has moved out of that view to the reality that God is incarnate in his children. He is revealed in our right living. For Christians to now revert to some pagan perception that God is a remote being in a physical heaven where hundreds of doe-eyed virgins are waiting for martyrs destroys the very revelation of Christ Jesus. The kingdom of God is within the heart, mind and being, not some afterlife reward.

Until all can agree on character, behaviour and attitudes of how God is expressed in our human lives there will not be a uniting of the three faiths. It must renounce sinful actions and behaviours as not reflecting the pure nature of God [especially violence]. Currently Islam prefers to use criminals to expand their influence - note the current problems in prisons as a fertile ground for jihad against Western society.

God has reconciled us to himself, in Christ, and has imparted this gift by the Spirit.
Let's live in the new reality, now, by grace, by faith, at peace, forever. (Amen).

Scout and Turnright,

Great to read your postings as always. You are absolutely right: as much as I studied the Bible and the Qu'ran I never saw the difference in contexts and scripts. Its all in personal philosophies and human greed. History taught us that 14 centuries ago an Abyssinian Christian King defended the Muslims and told them 'The difference between us is hairthin'. Salahuddin repeated a similar statement to Christians and Jews in Jerusalem when defending them from the French mercenaries "the prophet would do the same".

Anyway, the beauty of OLO is we can have roses and the opposite of roses: so we have scout, reason, turnright, robert..and we still have the coaches, the 'philo'sophers, the boazes...etc..

Coach and Philo,

You quoted:
"There is one God, one truth, one way to the kingdom of heaven that belongs to Him" "Jesus has done away with that concept and Has sacrificed himself for humanity" "Those who refuse to “get it” are doomed. The key to heaven is Jesus. Not religion"
"Until all can agree on character, behaviour and attitudes of how God is expressed in our human lives there will not be a uniting of the three faiths"

My comment

Maybe there is a good reason to religions being spiritual and not physical laws that can be tested by an Eisntein-created formula.
Debating religions is sterile and the proof is this: few thousands years later they are all still here!
The irony is: Your approach of 'repent or else' is identical to the very people we criticise: Islamist militant.

Fellow_Human,

The main difference between me and you is honesty.

I call it as it is. You hide behind the scouts and roberts of this world.

Be a man and acknowledge the sad truth of your mak-believe religion.

I read the Qur'an too and in Arabic (unlike your protégés) and I can quote you book and verse but that is not my style.

Christians are encouraged to criticise and scrutinise their scriptures. Muslems are not because their faith would be compromised if they start questioning their Allah-inspired version of truth.

Sorry but the ruse and malice can only take you so far. Intelligent people can read and research.

Yes heaven belongs to (only) the followers of Jesus. Why? because the bible tells me so. The same bible that your Qur'an is supposed to respect and confirm.

Ironic don't you think. (oops forgot you're not allowed to think)

Again with the kettle/pot trouble coach…

“Christians are encouraged to criticise and scrutinise their scriptures.”

So, where in all your raving has this occurred? And try not to start in with the insensible ‘I follow Jesus, not religion’ waffle.

I would be curious as to where you pray besides home? Do you have a group you worship with?

Let me try this one Coach,

You quoted the following:

"The main difference between me and you is honesty"
"I call it as it is. You hide behind the scouts and roberts of this world"
"Be a man and acknowledge the sad truth of your mak-believe religion"

'honestly', and 'if I want to call it as it is', the only 'sad truth' is that Jesus calls himself a prophet in the Bible :):)

1. Sermon of the mount: 'Jerusalem murderer of prophets'
2. Only the father knoweth when is judgement day, I don't
3. 'God why have you foresaken me'

You don't need to debate Jesus prophethood in the Quran, they are obvious enough in the bible. Just re-read it carefully on your own.

Anyway, I disagree with your theology but I don't judge you and I will fight to death your right to practice it. Can you do the same?

The principle of understanding Christ Jesus view of the kingdom is the reading of his messages. The nature of man in that kingdom has right living written upon his motives and behaviour. Jesus was truly man with the very heart and nature of God expressed in words, character, attitudes, and wisdom; he wasn't a fortune teller. However he could foretell the destruction of Jerusalem because he could observe their behaviour. Israel's behaviour at that time gave no hope of being restored to a former glory, and their future was in the Father's hands. That did not reduce his true image of the heart and mind of God. Those that observed him as well as Mahomet agreed of him that he was without sin [flawless in imageing God in humanity]. It is for the purity of his character we worship him as Lord. He's the standard of very God lived in human flesh - his spirit not his humanity we exhalt as God. We must always recognise many of his comments reflected his very humanity, as we ourselves.

F_H has not grasped the essential spiritual concept of how Christians view God. Though I can say many Christians also still worship very physical concepts of God; that is why they have a three person image of God. There is no biblical support for such immagination. God though expressed in diversity is absolutely one character, attitudes, actions, wisdom, creation etc.

For many, they only perceive God in beautiful physical images of a sunrise or sunset; but that is his creative handiwork. God is most demonstrated in humanity that allows him to rule in their lives; in their character, attitudes, actions, wisdom and creativity to bless others lives. Remember God is eternal Spirit in whose image we were designed to live to reach our full potential. Of course we all fall short of that image, but we're renewed as we recognise our failures and desire the fullness of God. Seeking forgivness indicates we recognises the very perfection of God to be lived in our lives.

"The key to heaven is Jesus. Not religion"

"Be a man and acknowledge the sad truth of your mak-believe religion."

Ahh! Coach!

You haven't deigned to reply to any of my previous posts, so I'll make this my last one in this thread. Not that your replies would be anything more than dogma devoid of reason.

If you believe Jesus was more than a man, you have a religion.

I am not frustrated by the fact you have a religion. I am incredibly frustrated by the fact that you refuse to acknowledge it is one, and you put your view on a pedestal and denigrate others which are no more or less ritualised than yours.

Nobody else is ever going to acknowledge "the sad truth of their make-believe religion." Why on earth should they? you can't. You can't even acknowledge yours is a religion. You have a crippling blindness of faith.

The dogma you espouse, and your utter refusal to even contemplate other views is exactly what is wrong with the world.

I suspect Jesus didn't hold views like yours - from what I can tell he was a compassionate sort, willing to listen to others and understand their hardships.

Clearly, the apple has fallen a long way from the tree.

Can Islam and Christian democracy co-exist in Australia?

Agnostic Andrew Bolt highlights the absurity of Victorian vilification laws. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20240491-25717,00.html

ANDREW writes: Scott quoted the Koran in a way that caused laughter and we all know how dangerous laughing Christians are, don't we?

Let a top lawyer -- Debbie Mortimer, SC -- demonstrate why you should laugh at the Bracks Government's vilification laws.
Or, perhaps, why you should fear them instead.

No, no, no. That wasn't her intention at all when she appeared before Victoria's Appeal Court on Monday.

Truth be told, she'd been hired by the Islamic Council of Victoria to justify these curbs on your free speech.

To be specific, she was there to ask the three appeal judges to dismiss an appeal by two Christian pastors, who were found guilty last year under these very laws of vilifying Muslims.

She wanted those judges to think it fine that pastors Daniel Scot and Danny Nalliah were ordered by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal in December to place full-page advertisements in the papers admitting they had said allegedly bad things about Islam.

And she hoped they would approve VCAT's order that these two Pentecostal pastors not repeat what they truly thought about Islam or to even hint it -- to instead keep their mouths shut even in other states where people are still mercifully free to say what these pastors may not.

But by now you must think these two pastors surely said something especially wicked to have been silenced so completely. Maybe Mortimer is on the side of justice.

All right, I won't hide from you the sordid truth.

VCAT's Justice Michael Higgins in December ruled Scot in particular had broken the Government's vilification laws by quoting the Koran in a way that got "a response from the audience at various times in the form of laughter".

We all know how dangerous laughing Christians are, don't we? No wonder a complaint was abruptly lodged by three Muslim converts who'd monitored the church seminar at the request of a Muslim ICV official then working for the Equal Opportunity Commission

Cont:
In his judgment, Higgins listed 13 examples how Scot had "made fun of Muslim beliefs and conduct". And here is where this case gets surreal: at least eight of them involve Scot quoting the Koran -- I believe, quoting it accurately.

It's true, the Koran does indeed say men may "beat" their wives. It does indeed urge believers to "kill-disbelievers-where-you-find-them". It really does call for thieves to have a hand chopped off.

...Higgins did not identify anything he said that was actually false, other than an immigration statistic. Oh, Scot failed to quote a Koranic verse that said Allah actually was merciful, so there.

Higgins found Scot erred because he "failed to differentiate between Muslims throughout the world (and) preached a literal translation of the Koran and of Muslims' religious practices that was not mainstream".

..Perhaps he knows better than does Scot, who was born in Pakistan and has studied the Koran for years, what is mainstream Islamic teaching and what is not.

Indeed, the judge may understand Islam better than does even the Mufti of Australia himself, Sheik Taj Al-Din Al-Halali, who seems to feel Islam's a faith that entitles him to say September 11 attacks were "God's work against oppressors", suicide bombers are "heroes" and Muslims must "prove our manhood towards God" in a "war of infidels".

Will someone please inform the Mufti that his interpretation of Islam is contradicted by Justice Higgins, and he should take religious instruction from him? Or is it just possible that it's the judge's opinion of Islam that isn't so mainstream?

I guess ..what is authentic Muslim teaching is just a matter of opinion, after all, and it's just bad luck Scot's side of the argument has been ruled illegal, no matter how true it may be.

Geoffrey Nettle, asked, "Surely that (vilification law) can't justify restraining them from saying something that said by anyone else would be legal?" he asked.

Replied Mortimer of the ICV: "The tribunal has found there is something wrong with saying it. Truth is not a defence, its irrelevant to contravention of the Act.

Philo,

You quoted:
"F_H has not grasped the essential spiritual concept of how Christians view God"

You kind of missed the point: I don't care how do you view God and I am not expecting you to 'grasp' my or any other view.

Do we accept each other 'as is' without judgement is the point I am making.

All the best,

Fellow_Human,
As a person of good will I totally accept you. However if we are talking about working together as one rationalised world view we must define how we read reality. From your post it seems obvious that Islams view of How God is revealed incarnate is not considered important; that for Christians is paramount to their faith and world view; therefore it will mean both cannot walk the same path.

God is not a creed to be recited, but an incarnation to be lived. So it is important for Christians to place the spirit of God in us at the pinnacle of human expression. God being incarnate is more about our lives than merely mental assent to religious dogma and ritual. Christ Jesus is the message from God, not merely his words as a prophet but the actions and attitudes of his life as a true light. That is why we must examine the life of those claiming to speak for God, do they represent His pure Character.

Philo,
Why is it then that so many decent Christians who can work side by side and in harmony with so many good Muslim? Is it that they aren’t good Christians? Or perhaps just not your idea of a good Christian?

It appears that you have exposed your lack of Christian charity and tolerance. Perhaps a little time examining Jesus attitudes would do you some good? But then, I suppose not…

FH… I believe you have it right. Simply accept. Where there is difference, discuss and find the compromise and middle ground.

It speaks volumes that the most peaceful place on a battlefield was the middle ground, don’t you think?

Thanks Reason,

I guess the point I kept making to Philo, Boaz and Coach is that
co-existence and acceptance is a personal choice.

All religions and cultures can co-exist or conflict based on the inidvidual choices. We don't need to accept each other interpretation of our faith or understanding of God or..or..

Fellow_Human,

OK you asked for it - here's a few verses from the first book of your holy book (I won't bother about the other 113 books for now)

[note: believers are those who believe in Allah and his prophet Mohammad. disbelievers are all the rest: Jews, Christians, pagans, ...]

Which verse really speaks about acceptance and tolerance of others? - you hypocrite you!

________________

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

Only evil people are disbelievers. 2:99

For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114

Disbelievers are losers. 2:121

Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126

Those who die disbelievers, are cursed by Allah, angels, and men. 2:161

The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162

They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167

Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171

Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174

How constant are (they) in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175

Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2

Fight them until "religion is for Allah." 2:193

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217

Intermarriage is forbidden. 2:221

The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers. 2:254

Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257

Allah does not guide disbelievers. 2:264

"Give us victory over the disbelieving folk." 2:28

Coach I have one piece of information for you that may shock you into change (one can only hope). It discredits every point you've ever made.

"Disbelievers" does not refer to the Christians and the Jews. The Christians the the Jews believe in One God. They are believers! Allah was trying to convert the wandering nomad tribes who believed in many gods.

This is the whole point of Islam and it's creation in the first place! AHH the fact that you do not know this and have based your entire argument on this makes me almost want to laugh.

References: "Misinterpretation of the verses of the Qur’an occurs when the historical, grammatical and theme contextual aspects are not taken into consideration. Unfortunately, some people wrongly accuse Islam of teaching violence based on an improper understanding of a few verses of the Qur’an that were actually addressed to a specific group of people, with a specific historical background. We will explore these verses in the light of their historical framework and of the subject matter in order to bring about their correct meaning and purpose. "

"In either case, the word disbelievers in verse 191 cannot be taken to mean Christians nor Jews or any disbeliever other than Quraysh. Thus, the claim that Islam teaches violence is proven false."

http://www.islamic-study.org/Quranic%20Verses%20Misinterpreted.htm

Fleurette,
May you continue to shine through your beautiful mind…

Thanks for teaching coach (and hopefully some others) his errors. Perhaps there is hope yet?

If the Qur'an is to be interpreted in a local context and to specific tribes its message is irrelavent for us today and must be discarded. Its principles have no authority for us today. I wish you would tell the fundamentalist extremists that, instead of trying to convert our society by threat of death by the sword.

Couldn’t agree more Philo.

So, can we discard the OT as it was written for another time also?

Or, as I suspect, there are messages there for us, much like the Q’uran. You just need to know how to look for them.

Thank you Reason.

The thing which frustrates me more than anything is the way people use the term "fundamentalists" to describe Islamic extremists. There is no such thing as Islamic fundamentalism as the Qur'an is beleived to be the literal word of God and the words cannot be changed or misinterpreted. So all practising Muslims are essentially fundamentalists.

Extremists on the other hand take the Qur'an out of context and interpret it as they see fit. They are in the minority.

What also angers me is how a few verses in the Qur'an can be misinterpreted by a large number of non-muslims who have never read or studied the Qur'an or Islam the religion. They are doing exactly what they accuse these extremists of doing - the ones who use religion to recruit suicide bombers. They are using Islam as a scapegoat for all the violence in the middle east.

They also fail to see how these suicide bombing recruits are only willing to listen to religious extremists because they face daily prejudices and extreme oppression, particularly in Palestine.

Anyone who claims Islam is a violent religion with violent followers is admitting to being nothing more than either a religious extremist or an avid follower of A Current Affair, Today Tonight, Sky News, Fox News, The Australian, The Daily Telegraph and so on and so forth.

Educate yourselves or refrain from posting. Subdue your indoctrinated, propaganda orientated minds, read some books from the perspectives of some of the most educated people and quit isolating sections of the Qur'an which are pliable to the wrath of Coach and co.

fleurette,

The primary message of Islam as you claim to be the truth is not getting through as the dominant Muslim view. You by your inaction to espouse the truth of the Muslim view is merely condoning the extremists view. You must put your house in order before pretending Islam is a peaceful political system. Middle Eastern Muslims are mob violent by character and it is demonstrated by their behaviour.

Merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace and love is not sufficient when we see demonstrated violence against civillians in the name of Allah daily on the World stage. Reporters forced at the point of a gun to convert to Islam or face death.

Even Muslim leaders in the PM's chosen team of advisors this week publicly denouncing Prime Minister Howard for encouraging Muslims to adopt the English language, Australian values and assimilate. The leaders see PM Howard more threatening than Osama whose followers in Australia are using our democratic free speech to threaten us.

Compare: The Leaders have not publicly denounced rapist acts [pleasure marriages] of violence upon teenage virgins by using the text of their theology; but most verbally express defiance of our way of life by abusing free speech to claim right to democracy.

We do not have the idiology of Seiks or Buddahists threatening our life, but we do have Mislim groups collectively attending Mosque listening to hate sermons in Arabic denouncing infidels and our values. Obviously you view of Islam is indifferent and weak as it is not converting the radicals to love life and peace.

America's Muslims Aren't as Assimilated as You Think

Washington Post, Geneive Abdo, August 27, 2006

“Out over the past two years, I have traveled the country, visiting mosques, interviewing Muslim leaders and speaking to Muslim youths in universities and Islamic centers from New York to Michigan to California -- and I have encountered a different truth…”

At: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/25/AR2006082501169.htm

Fleurette,

Good thoughtful posting although Coach won't get it.

Coach,

You are a living proof that Christo fundies are "equal to" or "greater danger than" Muslim fundies.
Howard & Costello should address your mob in their next speech to assimilate and accept Australian values.

Philo,

I attended many mosques prayers in Sydney and maybe there is one or two fiery clerics which people and police know about. Now, how many hate speeches do you see on the OLO forums, media and politicians comment? How do you find the latest 'fiery' comment from Cardinal Pell on Islam and Muslims?

Fellow_Human,
When Did Cardinal Pell encourage the overthrow of Muslim society?
When did he teach we are to fight to overthrow them and threaten to bomb or burn them? From what I heard he spoke about, was the evil ideas and actions perpetrated by Islam; he did not encouragement violent acts of hatred of the people who believed the antisocial anti-Western nonsence. As Islam grows in Australia and attempt to change the laws - the secularists will challange it and we are bound for civil conflict, as atheists will not wear for one minute the totalitarian imposition of Islam.

Australia: British Cardinal’s challenge to Muslims

Cardinal challenges Muslims to defend persecuted Christians
Cathnews, September 2006
”Muslims must speak up for the rights of Christians in Islamic countries and work with Christians towards a "mutual witness" to the shared values of peace and justice, British Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor said in Melbourne last night. "This is a vital principle of sacred hospitality, and it is vital for the relationship between Christians and Muslims," The Age quoted the Cardinal as saying. "Where Christians are being denied their rights or are subject to sharia law, that is not a matter on which Muslims in Britain or in Australia should remain silent," Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor added. "Where religious rights of minorities are disrespected in the name of Islam, the face of Islam is tarnished elsewhere in the world."…”
At: http://www.cathnews.com/news/609/3.ph

Daily Telegraph, By Gemma Jones, August 22, 2006
"PREMIER Morris Iemma yesterday put those behind Sydney's race attacks on notice - leave hatred in your homelands.
The Premier reacted after The Daily Telegraph revealed alarming attacks in Sydney in the wake of the war in the Middle East.
News of the attacks prompted Mr Iemma to ask for an urgent report on racial violence, to be prepared by the office of Police Minister Carl Scully. "Ancient hatreds and rivalries from other lands do not belong in Australia. Australia is a welcoming and generous society." Mr Iemma said.
In the worst incidents "Kill Jews" has been spray painted across the city, Jewish students attacked on a university campus and Muslim Australians accused of being terrorists. A synagogue at Parramatta has been attacked twice, with concrete blocks thrown through windows in the latest incident. A spokesman for Mr Iemma said work had begun immediately on the report to assess the scale of recent violence.
In one of the most shocking cases of violence, Jewish students at Sydney University, who identify their faith with religious skullcaps, have been attacked. As a result many of them have been forced to cover their skullcaps by wearing baseball caps.

Last week, when approached by The Daily Telegraph, the students who had been victims of attacks said they were too afraid to speak about their ordeal. "It is important to say the university takes allegations of this nature very seriously," a university spokesman said. "In line with university policy and the code of conduct, which applies to both academics and students, racially motivated behaviour, verbal slurs or attacks, are totally abhorrent and severe disciplinary penalties are applied. "University security staff, student welfare and counselling staff are on standby to deal with this."
Australian Union of Jewish students president Greg Weinstein, who first raised the concerns of students, said racism against any group should not be tolerated. "This is not a Jewish and Muslim issue, we are fighting the same war against extremists and racists," he said. At http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20208907-5006009,00.html

Fleurette,

You picked the wrong guy to explain your naive understanding of Islam.

If you are referring to me as not understanding the cultural context of the Islamic holy books you are mistaken – I know their culture very well and have read their holy books and studied them in Arabic and other languages.

Islam is a false religion. Their god Allah is not the same God of the Bible. Full Stop.

They may be sincere in their beliefs in the one god theory - but the resemblance of Allah is uncharacteristic of the real Jehovah God, and the Trinity.

The Qur'an denies the Sonship of Jesus and the existence of the Holy Spirit. The very essence of God Himself living IN His followers..

A true "god" cannot turn on Himself and ask His new followers to deny what He is or was... and what he had said and done… and more so ask the new followers to destroy His first followers. This is what Jehadists (true struggling Muslems) use to fight non-believers (all of us non-muslems). It is Allah’s decree repeated over and over throughout their books.

The fact is these verses are in the Qur'an and cannot be removed. Muslems around the world recite them daily.

Believers according to the Qur'an are believers in Allah - who his followers truly believe is the God of the universe. That is the tragedy my friend. Muslems are all perishing into eternal hell because they sincerely believed a counterfeit god that has been forced upon them.

There is no love expressed or implied in islam - only judgement and eternal damnation.

Mohammad did not guaranty salvation (not even for himself).

Only the true One God of the Bible expressed His love by dying on the cross – offering free salvation to those who accept His gift of Grace.

Allah on the other hand denies the very historical fact of the cross.

So who can you believe? Historical factual provable facts or made-up concoctions and nomadic stories?

Coach,
I have listened to well educated scholars give evidence of the existence of God. These Christians are quite extreme in their views yet even they never describe a “Christian God” but rather a Transcendent Being that has no definition and cannot be named nor understood as easily as you claim.

You have shown no substantiated proof to back up your claims at all.

“There is no love expressed or implied in islam”

I disagree entirely with this statement. Are we reading the same Qur’an here??

What about the Islamic poets and the mystical Sufis who express such a deep love for God in their beautifully written poems? Look up the Persian poet al Rumi. He describes his love for God as being an exaltation of drunkenness. He is drunk on love for God!

If the best point you can make is that they don’t believe in the cross or the trinity than my question to you is – where is the proof that The Christian Way is the right way? Because telling me that they don’t believe in fundamental Christian beliefs say nothing but a state of the obvious. Islam’s difference to Christianity is what makes it unique. Yet at the same time the similarities are overwhelming and I prefer to focus on them.

You are concentrating on simplistic concepts like “how can he turn his back on his followers”. As if God is the guy next door and you’re upset about how he never comes over anymore because he keeps visiting that other dude across the street Mohammed.

You need to look at it instead as though perhaps the followers of Islam are seeing and experiencing God as we know it, in a different way, just as the Christians experienced God differently to the Jews. Why should it matter which way is the right way, so long as we all believe or at least try to be better people?

Philo when you start quoting the Daily Telegraph I cringe.
I cringe for a reason.

fleurette,

You raise important questions. The answers to which should convince and convict you either way. That is if you believe in absolutes. i.e. if two ideas are different only one can be true – and not both.

1. >>God… as a Transcendent Being that has no definition and cannot be named nor understood as easily as you claim.<<

My answer to that is “Jesus” – God revealing Himself by becoming human. Jesus is totally God and totally human flesh in everything. To know the real Jesus is to know God.

My reference: The bible.

2. “There is no love expressed or implied in islam”

I am talking about the unique expression of God’s love (Agape) for humanity (not a poetic human adoration of a supreme being or to each other).

God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, to die for us as a substitute for our eternal damnation. That unique love is only embodied in the Christian God.

Allah does not reveal himself in this way – he has 99 attributes – none for “love”. (why?)

3. >>…where is the proof that The Christian Way is the right way?<<

The resurrection of Jesus after He was crucified and was dead in a tomb. He rose again as it was predicted by Himself and the prophets centuries before He was born.

A fact so conveniently overlooked by the Qur’anic revelation of Jesus. (why?)

(continued.,)

4. >> Islam’s difference to Christianity is what makes it unique. Yet at the same time the similarities are overwhelming and I prefer to focus on them.<<

Islam is unique indeed. It stands alone as a religious concept. It claims to confirm the previous scriptural revelations – the bible. But in fact it denies the very message of the bible: Jesus. (why?)

The differences between Islamic claims and the biblical ones are so flagrant that it makes it alien to the biblical prophetic chain of revelations. Mohammad does not fit in the Judeo-Christian concept of a prophet. Not one biblical prophet used force to proclaim his message. (why?)

So any comparison is futile.

5. >>You are concentrating on simplistic concepts like “how can he turn his back on his followers”.<<

Simplistic maybe but meaningfully very deep. God sent His Son to die for us. Allah said no such thing as a “son” and no one died on the cross… Which one is lying? And why?

6. >> Why should it matter which way is the right way, so long as we all believe or at least try to be better people?<<

This is a beauty… again the answer should shake you (if you want to know the truth that is).

Are you interested to follow the one true God as revealed in the reliable scriptures – the bible or are you content to put your eternity in the hands of a false god that cannot save you?

Good people are aplenty – but to belong to God’s kingdom in heaven is another matter. It is not a lottery or a wish. Jesus provides certainty of salvation – why gamble your life to anyone else

Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? Hopefully, but that is really not the reality. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was supposedly Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests). (see <http://wwwnazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm>http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm)

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die.

Philo,

I am yet to hear from a "peaceful muslem" that terrorism is not an Islamic religious obligation. No one has publicly and honestly condemned 9/11. Bin laden is still hailed as a hero (alive or dead) by all good Islamic jehadists.

I wouldn't jump to such conclusions and suggest that Christian Germans shared the same goals as muslems.

As you know Hitler was a mad man - and not a subscriber to Christian values.

In islam it is the opposite – peaceful means coward and un-islamic. The peaceful ones are part of the same army. Somehow their fear comes from the evil religion and not falling victim to the radical soldiers of islam.

The extremists are the heroes – the ones that makes it all happen for the other peaceful ones who cry victim but deep down agree, condone and finance all the carnage in the name of their barbaric god.

Terror is the common language of islam. After all half of them are illiterate and live in utter poverty in some of the world richest countries.

The reality shows when the so-called peaceful Muslem demonstrators hit our streets. They never hold anti Islamic placards – not for fear of their peers but because of their true inner convictions that the west is evil and islam is great.

Maybe it's time you revisit the Qur'an and get in the real spirit of Mohammad's religion.