So, it is the obligation of the Lebanese to disarm and expell Hezbollah, is it? You mean like the Israelis disarmed and expelled Menachim Begin and the Stern Gang as they went about blowing up hotels and intimidating Palestinians off their lands in the 1940's?

What an extraordinary spin to suggest that Israel was calmly going about its business until a few rockets hit home? Short memory, must have a very short memory.

And if both Jews and Muslims worship the "one true God" then by what perverted logic can the Zionistas claim that God gave the land to them? Wouldn't he not reward the virtuous from both sides of his family? Doesn't a worthy father love each of his children equally?

And if John Howard can state that "We will decide who comes to our country and the manner of their comming", why was that principle not extended to the Palestinians who owed no debt to Jews or anyone else?

The Nazis murdered millions of Gays. Perhaps we should kick the Greeks off Lesbos and Mykonos?

Scout,

Can Israel do anything for Middle East peace? This is an interesting question, unfortunately, after the latest round of violence Israel has had to come to terms with the fact that restraint on their part only begets more violence, thus restraint by Israel at the present time would be unlikely, as the population does not trust their neighbour’s. The dovish spirit that led Israeli’s to withdraw from Lebanon and Gaza, in the face of overwhelming international pressure has been harmed if not destroyed in the most part by the fact that International observers have demonstrated their inability to understand any action, even when justified, by Israel.

As to the region, the current crisis is only the beginning of a larger, all encompassing campaign between the two muslim faiths:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/07/21/news/jihadists.php

This, is not an ‘isolated’ incident, but rather is symptomatic of the increasing tension between the Shia & Sunni in the entire region:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=newsOne&storyid=2006-07-23T182306Z_01_L23855789_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L1-RelatedNews-11

The Iranian Military has attempted to forge closer ties with Saudi Arabia, but have been rebuffed:

http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles/iran-saudi_359902.html

The Saudi’s have since negotiated multi-billion dollar arms agreements with:

China: http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/missile/saudi.htm

The USA: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-07-20T205428Z_01_N20280726_RTRUKOC_0_UK-ARMS-SAUDI.xml

The UK: http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12947

France: http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=France%2C+Saudi+Arabia+ink+defence+deal&id=90477

This menacing military build-up in turn makes Iran nervous:

http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_16524.shtml

Which causes it to arm further:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/index.php?storytopic=0&start=5430

Increasing its present efforts:

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_03/cbchinamarch02.asp

http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/june-2006/buyers-line-up-for-chinas-arms

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-802.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/links.htm

And adding to its considerable defence force (with a significant first strike capacity):

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iran/missile.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/index.html

A recent Masters thesis suggests that the Saudi’s may also be gaining NBC’s:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcdowell.pdf

While Iran is well on the way to having Nuclear weapons:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7990

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=798

So that being the situation, coupled with Israel’s growing antipathy toward International pressure; which has revealed itself to ordinary Israeli’s to be uncaring and unreasonable; what is Israel to do to assist the cause of Middle East Peace? They are not protagonists nor are they central to the larger play, they are simply bit players, and are well and truly sidelined in the upcoming main event.

What would you have me suggest?

Inshallah

2 bob

2bob,

Israel could declare its final boarders something that they have avoided since the inseption of the State and then perhaps the world could finally see that there is absolutely no chance of peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. Peace be damned they want as much land as they can get while insuring that the Arab population doesn’t come with it.

As far as the present situation in Lebanon is concerned Israel seem to have a green light from President Bush to do their worst and he is even rushing through improved WMDs to do it.

Listening to Israel National Radio there was an interview with an opposition Member of the Knesset (MK) and his biggest fear was that the current war against Hizballah will delay Israel's planned attack on Iran and he very much feared that Secretary of State Rice would crimp Israel's style by requesting that their bombing be restricted to military targets and that they end their current indiscriminate bombing of Lebanon.

The ABC of the States reported yesterday that Israel had bombed LBC and Future TV stations off the air in Beirut. The former is owned by a Maronite and certainly no friend of Hizballah the latter is owned by the Harriri clan allies to the USA and the concluded reason? Israel didn't want the world to see the crimes that they intend to commit in Lebanon and as most of the TV stations around the world covering the current conflict take their material from these 2 stations. Israel learned from the past that it has been forced into a premature ceasefire because the world has viewed one of their atrocities and it has no intention of that happening this time around.

Yes Israel could do a lot to help peace, even obeying the rules of engagement as set out in the Geneva Convention could be a start and perhaps obey international law and as a real novelty, UN resolutions. Israel has never done this in its cowboy history, somehow I don't see it starting now do you?

Interesting links but I wonder how much in them is actually true.

It makes me wonder who is reponsible for the assembling and dissemination of this material and who would really be interested in reading it on even an ad-hoc basis.

Who actually gets paid to sit down and put this stuff out there, by who and for what purpose?

I think much of it is meant to reinforce already held opinion than to inform.

The concept of misinformation (lies) and disinformation (90% truth but tainted with 10% obvious lies) are well-used intelligence tools.

That goes for both sides but one side usually has better resources than the other.

Sometimes it's called marketing, sometimes just propaganda, but it's always to be treated with a degree of suspicion - particularly in times of military conflict.

Otherwise it becomes "My God is better than your God, my links are better than your links..."

Demos,

Your opening sentence is probably correct. Most people are dyed in the wool ‘whatevers’. But, I don’t follow what you mean by “actual democracy”, nor your claim about leaving “the direction of national policy in the hands of a few individuals who are selected by the level of their arrogance and willingness to lie, cheat, and kill….”.

I don’t have a lot of time for politicians, but I don’t recognise anyone like you describe in our democracy.

Would I be wrong in assuming that this “actual democracy” of yours is something of you own invention, and that you would have a very harsh view of anyone voted into parliament by a majority of voters who did not comply exactly with your “actual democracy”?

We do have democracy in the West. It is not perfect, but it has proven to be the best thing yet available. We, unfortunately, find ourselves fighting wars simple because we are democratic – our enemies hate our democracy; they do not believe in democracy; they will do their utmost to destroy democracy.

The entire philosophy of the terrorism we are fighting is anti-democratic. Try to convince them of your views, and see what happens.

Your final paragraph seems to suggest that we call meetings of all voters to make the decisions that we select a few hundred politicians to make for us now. Apart from the total impracticality of your wish list, what would you do if the majority of the people still didn’t want the same as you wanted

2bob

You are supporting David-Boaz's disgraceful and developing 'final solution' for people who dis-agree with you.

Mate recant ... retract ... rethink... well at least distance yourself from that sort of evil.

I have enough knowledge of you by now, from our mostly good-natured debate, to think this is a serious error of judgement on your part.

Leigh

They usually respond. I expect it will take them sometime. But I think after reading much of the comment on this site they might just have the courage to adopt the European position.

I hope they go further and demand Israel 'get out of Lebanon' especially since such a position would be consistant with their position in regard to Iraq.