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The Forum > Article Comments > Talk of a failed state is not accurate > Comments

Talk of a failed state is not accurate : Comments

By Minh Nguyen, published 26/6/2006

Labelling East Timor a 'failed state' and linking this status to international terrorism and crime is unhelpful.

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Plantagenet,
"I suspect, though, that hardline Indonesia military leaders in East Timor (who of course grew up in the Soeharto tradition of military dominance) hold major responsibility for what happened."
I wonder if you will still hold that suspicion, if in the future you see yet again East Timorese burn their cities and kill their fellow Timorese.
Remember, when some Pro-Indonesian East Timorese in West Timor terrorized people in refugee camps, you all put pressure on Indonesia. But just days ago, East Timorese in East Timor did the very same thing ; terrorize refugees camp in East Timor! No Indonesia to blame; you just need to know East Timorese better.

"I’m talking more about the reality that if Australia did not step-in to stop the instability and suffering in East Timor a power vacuum would be created which some other country or radical political swing (to the Left or Right) might fill."

No longer our concern. We have suffered enough from taking care of East Timor; it's costly, it tarnished our international image, all for nothing while all we wanted to do was to help them!

"As Indonesia borders East Timor Indonesia has the greatest interest in stability being restored."

If they have a bloody conflict again, we will just close the border swiftly; so that the violence won't spread to our land, people won't exodus to our land enmasse, and elements of conflict won't misuse our land. We will help them only if asked.

"I imagine Indonesia would not want to see leftist radicalism spread to other areas of the archipelago -including other Christian areas.
Given their previous record in East Timor and their former African colonies I don’t think the Portuguese are capable, in the long term, of assisting East Timor beyond nostalgia."

It's not our concern anymore. We would not intervene in their internal affair, never again. Leave it to them!
After East Timor, it's Indonesia-Australia relation that will never be the same again.

"I think there should be time for East Timor to catch its breath rather than fighting a civil war."

I do hope so
Posted by Ningtyas, Sunday, 2 July 2006 10:35:04 PM
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Australia is so strange.
You push so hard for East Timor independence, and then, you do not respect them and treat them as if East Timor a sovereign state. Make us wonder. Portuguese and Malaysia and New Zealand also help East Timor with their troops, but they do respect the troubled country.

Is your pushing so hard for it's independence is all about oil?
You think it's amoral but not evil, Pete? But I think it's beyond evil.
When will you treat them as a sovereign state? After they have signed the oil agreement?! Poor Timorese!
Posted by Ningtyas, Sunday, 2 July 2006 11:12:23 PM
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Ningtyas

I can understand why you find Australia such a conundrum. However, i think you are confusing the agenda of our government with the views of many Australians. For the government it IS all about Oil/gas for people like myself it is about independence for those who desire it.

Many Australians remember the support given by the East Timorese during WW2, as a result we hold strong bonds of friendship.

Our government cynically recognises this and provides only enough aid to E. Timor to appear as though Australia is helping but the reality is that they are only doing enough to maintain their interests in energy resources. A strong and independent East Timor means that the Australian government would have to deal fairly over the energy reserves, this is why it pulled support out prematurely and prefers that East Timor remains a 'failed state'. Its all about power.

For me, it is beyond amorality, you are correct; it is indeed evil.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 3 July 2006 10:20:38 AM
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@Scout:

You're quite right about Australia being evil, but regardless of whether Australian govt behave in a virtuous or an evil manner, East Timor will always be a failed state. To mention a "strong and independent" East Timor is an oxymoron, like mentioning "a healthy syphilis patient".

East Timor is simply not fit to be an "independent state", it is inherently flawed concept. This is because East Timor is an unsustainable artificial construct born out of Portuguese vanity and President Habibie's mood swings. Had Indonesia's president in 1999 was not Habibie or if he been in different mood, East Timor is for certain will still be part of Indonesia today.

East Timor's "independence" is solely a gift from Habibie, given although East Timor has absolutely no foundation for a "state". History is not kind to states that are created due to a person's mood swing.

So, don't be so hard on yourself, Australia cannot be blamed for the failure of a fatally-flawed concept such as "East Timor state".
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 4 July 2006 4:41:47 AM
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The left wing of Fretilin should note that Australia is not a completely selfless buddy of East Timor. This is the real world and we are grownups. If a UN coalition of countries is going to carry guns on East Timor's territory that is sad, but East Timor could do worse.

For example PTBI's references above to East Timor's independence arising from "Habibie's mood swings" is an interesting argument. Maybe Habibie is a good man. I wonder what PTBI is going to insinuate next...

PTBI has already stated in capitals:

"LONG LIVE HEROIC INDONESIAN MILITARY! LONG LIVE INDONESIAN PEOPLE! LONG LIVE PANCASILA! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!

DEATH TO ISLAMIC RADICALISM! DEATH TO SEPARATISM!"

Unless I am mistaken PTBI's views above are sincerely held by most Indonesians. If there are moderate Indonesians out there please correct this conception.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 12:48:37 AM
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PANCASILA The 1945 constitution was formed on a reasonable system. I like the reference to humanity and justice. Extreme Islamic people disagree with this consititution as it gives too much to humanity and justice.

This is in line with PTBI's affirmation against extreme Islamists.

Why do some Australians have a problem with this balanced system?

They are tough on drugs.

However, the latest cases were a set-up from Australian authorities in our Airports to embarrass the Indonesians. They let the drugs slide right under their radar for the drug carriers to fall into a diplomatic trap. Terrorist bombs to Bali could have passed under the radar at Sydney Airport too. This was Australia's trap.

It would have been wise for Indonesia to not allow Corby and the 9 heroin carriers to actually leave the airport at all, but just to just send them back to Australia with the evidence, instructions to confiscate their passports upon return, stamped: "never to return to Indonesia". They could have then exposed the Australian corruption, the trap: walk away smelling like roses. That's just my opinion.

Other Islamic countries like Algeria are in chaos. They technically have "government", but everyone knows that the terrorists have run the place since the 1990 amnesty on terrorism: a failure.

Turkey has an improved legal system lately, it has had to since the "Midnight Express" days. Turkey is becoming more European, desperate to join the EU.

What PTBI, I think, is trying to affirm, is that they are unique as an Islamic country, as their constitution does not allow for extreme views.

This seems to hold their country together. This is the opposite to an extreme view in Indonesia.

Why are we suddenly back-flipping the spin that Timor leste may not be a failure? Is this because the Portugese and New Zealanders arrived to take control and they are actually respected by the locals?

I believe my watch. Australia thinks in a predictable clockwork: it gets what it wants. This was always an agenda for oil. Do you believe the Australian media?
Posted by saintfletcher, Wednesday, 5 July 2006 4:17:15 AM
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