Plantagenet
Due to previously encountering the crazy logic of our Indonesian apologists in previous forums I decided as did others that you cant put brains into morons so I dont even bother to acknowledge their rantings let alone waste time reacting to their extremism.
Re the current crisis in East Timor,there is not enough space in this forum to adequately analyse the causes but ignoring the misleading and one sided media, the real story is slowly emerging and all the players in the drama have yet to be identified. It can be said though that without the distortions of fact the demonisation of Mari Alkatiri is only the first stage in attempts to destroy Fretilin the majority party that truly represents the aspirations of the Maubere people.

to Plantagenet,
I do not always agree with PTBI. However, his comment about the 1999 event was true.

"The difference between our countries is that many Australians publicly admit where we have let down East Timorese."

The problem is, you all always treat us as if we are still in Soeharto era. I have said in previous posts, that many horrible things indeed happen in Soeharto era. Not only in East Timor and Papua, but everywhere in Indonesia.
I also have admitted that Indonesian trying to integrate East Timor to Indonesia was a mistake. And to let it go was the best decision ever made. They can never see the goods we have done, only the bads.

What used to be our headache, is now yours, Australians. Enjoy!
And let Indonesians enjoy our precious freedom from East Timor headache! :-)

As for the numbers of casualties, well.Exaggerating event and numbers are one of their way to get sympathie, aid and support. In the past, inflating those number did work well. But I believe the world could not be manipulated by number forever. Sooner or later, the truth will be revealed. Just wait.

"In the end the hard left of Fretilin will critisize the white "imperialists" no matter what they do. If Fretilin now wishes to ignore what Indonesia has done perhaps Australia should hand the baby back to you."

What do you mean? If you suggest that East Timor should be handed back to Indonesia, then NO THANK YOU! Are you kidding? Who ever wants to be back to the worst nightmare?

It's funny, though Pete. In another forum I read an Australian suggest that the Portuguese should rule back East Timor. While in Indonesian forum, an Indonesian suggest that it's Australia who should rule East Timor.
Come on! East Timor is a sovereign state! Why talk like that?
East Timor is free to govern themselves. Whether the freedom means freedom to fight each other within it's own country, that's another story. Let them prove that they can. Right, maracas? :)

Maracas

Thanks for your response. I assume you are criticising Indonesia’s record to the extent you are permitted ;-)

A democratic East Timorese government can probably exist without Mari Alkatiri heading it. In any case he might resume his position once elections are held, who knows!

Noting that Australia was under effective military dictatorship (run be serving naval or army officers as Governor and the NSW Corps for the first few decades of its existence) it takes a while for new nations to develop and for their leaders to be broadly accepted internally and otherwise. This is, of course, small comfort to the East Timorese who have died or are starving because of the fighting.

NINGTYAS

I’m glad you differentiate yourself from some of PTBI’s positions. Nothing like a diversity of opinions.

Thank you for acknowledging that, like Australia, Indonesia is not perfect. Its true that many in Australia (and in the West generally) view Indonesia as heavily influenced by your military (with Soeharto being the obvious symbol).

One could argue that Indonesia’s emasculation of East Timor in 1999 occurred after Soeharto left power (in May 1998). I suspect, though, that hardline Indonesia military leaders in East Timor (who of course grew up in the Soeharto tradition of military dominance) hold major responsibility for what happened. I think that Indonesia’s increasingly democratic, civilian institutions are growing away from this tradition – though West Papua is a worry.

The Indonesian army can always claim (and it receives Western backing) that it needs to be strong to combat radical Islam. This no doubt puts pressure on democratic institutions.

continued...

Ningtyas Response Continued.

On your question about my suggestion East Timor be “handed back” and why can’t East Timorese be left to fight it out independently:

I’m talking more about the reality that if Australia did not step-in to stop the instability and suffering in East Timor a power vacuum would be created which some other country or radical political swing (to the Left or Right) might fill.

Even Maracas would not want an East Timorese government run by a military junta (something about Hitler and his flipside Mao and "power coming from the barrel of a gun"). The Australian, and other, troops will eventually leave - a military junta wouldn't

A stable East Timorese Government to negotiate with about oil is also an important Australian national interest.

I’m sure of this – the oil imperative partially explains many actions countries take (see my latest blog post on this). This imperative is legitimate. Its amoral but not evil

As Indonesia borders East Timor Indonesia has the greatest interest in stability being restored.

One reason the West (admittedly) backed Soeharto was his anti communist stance. When people start talking Cuban doctors presumably that might be only the beginning if East Timor tipped further towards the left. I imagine Indonesia would not want to see leftist radicalism spread to other areas of the archipelago -including other Christian areas...

Given their previous record in East Timor and their former African colonies I don’t think the Portuguese are capable, in the long term, of assisting East Timor beyond nostalgia.

Hopefully Jose Ramos Horta will get things back on an even keel and deepen the democratic beginnings, even if Alkatiri eventually returns.

I think there should be time for East Timor to catch its breath rather than fighting a civil war.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

@Plantagenet:

There is nothing flawed about our statistics, mate. The 1974 statistic came from the Portuguese on the eve of collapse of their rule over East Timor, while the 2000 census came from UN. I think the truth is undeniable: THERE WAS NEVER ANY GENOCIDE IN EAST TIMOR

No wonder, East Timorese govt prior to its collapse strongly opposed any open international tribunal which will demolish the myth of "genocide", the original raison d'etre for East Timorese "independence" in the first place.

BTW Indonesian people and military are very united. It is very mistaken for you to consider Indonesian civilians for some reason dislike the military.

This is because the people understand the military's heroic role in defending the country from Dutch invasion during war of independence, and their heroic role as the successful defender of secular nationalist ideology "Pancasila" from the subversion attempts by radical Islamists (DI-TII) and communists (PKI) during early years of independence.

Today, for Indonesia's masses from all ethnicity and religion, a job in the military has always been their dream career opportunity as it provide the number one vertical mobility (Suharto and SBY rose from being poor peasants into presidents of Indonesia).

When facing external threat or a minor internal one such as separatism, rest assured the entire Indonesian people are united as ONE BODY with the military (TNI manunggal dengan rakyat). This is because the Indonesian military came from the people, for the people. Right now, Indonesian people see the military as DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY against the ideological enemy of Pancasila, the radical Islamists who intend to create an Islamic state in Indonesia.

LONG LIVE HEROIC INDONESIAN MILITARY! LONG LIVE INDONESIAN PEOPLE! LONG LIVE PANCASILA! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!

DEATH TO ISLAMIC RADICALISM! DEATH TO SEPARATISM!

@maracas:

Shouting in this forum is useless, mate. As you'd know, when dealing with East Timor, the truth never matters and is completely irrelevant.

What matters is the perception formed in overseas media. Currently, the entire international media (even in BBC) has ganged-up against your boyfriend Alkatiri, portraying him as the devil while Xanana and Ramos-Horta get the part of heavenly angels.

With the enemies he's up against, there is no chance for your lover to change his demonic image. Basically he is doomed. You'll be better-off looking for a new boyfriend. :-)