Good one Minh Nguyen.

Alkatiri is indeed an interesting character. On the face of it, he seems to have the measure of the competing interests that are swarming like hyenas upon East Timor's natural resources.

Our homegrown neocons will have their knickers in a twist of course, resorting to such dog whistles as "failed state", "Marxist influence", and the yellow peril. They have no shame where the glittering prize of those gas royalties is concerned.

If it were not for the corporate sharks, then good hearted people like Xanana and Jose would be sufficient alone to give the paternalistic leadership and set the ethical standards for the fledgling state.

Wolfie is an interesting character. Do you suppose he has had an epiphany after his part in the slaughter of Iraq?

I'll go onto a siding now, while the express train of howling indignation passes through -

It's refreshing to read comment about East Timor that deals with some very salient facts and does not swallow the blanket anti_Mari Alkatiri line that gives rebels leaders prime time TV coverage when they should have been disarmed and arrested.
It is no secret that the Australian and US Governments prefer the "charismatic Xanana Gusmao" and now ex-Foreign Minister Jose Ramos Horta to the hard nosed Nationalistic negotiator, Mari Alkatiri.
The 'rent-a crowd' of young men being bussed into Dili to besiege the Parliament and call on Gusmao to sack Alkatiri have had their opportunity to display their preferences.
I expect that a demonstration of mature Maubere citizens is about to show to the world that a far greater number support the democratically elected Alkatiri Government.
This should alert Australians to the fact that there is much more to the unrest in East Timor than we are being told by a captive media
and start to question the Howard Government's agenda which appears to have allowed the burning and looting to continue unabated whilst the ADF stood by.
onya Minh Nguyen

Discussing whether or not East Timor is a “failed state” is an exercise in semantics. East Timor is a mess, no matter how you describe it.

There is no difference in effect between alleged Indonesian violence and the current homegrown violence deriving from East Timor’s obvious inability to govern itself.

History and common sense backs Don Watson’s comments. Australia has neither the ability nor the resources to help in the decolonisation of East Timor. History shows that it requires decades of guidance and control to see former colonies build government institutions, democracy and law and order. Australians simply will not tolerate any government they elect spending that much time and money for the required period.

While the author might not have heard of any suggestions that easterners and westerners see themselves as separate nations, there can be no denial of the brutal combat, discrimination and vandalism of the two groups shown daily on the media. And, what about the author’s own reference to respected columnist, Gerard Henderson, who says that the East Timorese started killing each other as soon as the Portuguese left.

The only sense to come from this contribution was not from its author, but from Gerard Henderson, who wrote: “The unfashionable fact is that East Timor was not ready for immediate independence…,”.

This is still the case and it will be the case for many years to come.

East Timor is not a failed state, but it is in danger of becoming one. Whether the Timorese are able to solve the current crisis will be the big test for them now. But they are not helped by well meaning Fretilin supporters from Australia like Maracas and Helen Hill. I lived in Dili for 18 months in 2001-02 and even then Alkatiri was not popular being seen to run the country in the interests of a small group who had lived in exile during the Indonesian period. Timor desperately needs a new inclusive settlement that denounces the human rights abuses of Indonesia, but also accepts the education, language and ethnic affinity that Indonesia brought. Unfortunately, this settlement - that must include non-Fretilin - has not happened yet. Timorese independence was only possible after 1987 when the broad CNRM was formed that included former UDT and other non-Marxists. That coalition must not be allowed to unravel again now that independence has been achieved

Alkatiri has clearly stuffed things up, dragging his country down with him.

He has a right to his version of events but as a PM and leader he should have taken ethnic divisions and other political variables, such as military influence, into account.

He has demonstrated that he may be a good revolutionary advocate but unlike the Timorese President he failed to act as a moderator, or a manager and hold things together.

Naturally Australia has national interests regarding East Timor. What do grown up people expect?

If the East Timorese (as represented by Fretilin) want to play the GUILT CARD against Australia and imply that all Australia’s interests stem from neo-colonialism, Australia may grow tired of its adopted child.

Australia may eventually find it easier to deal over oil issues with an East Timor again controlled by Indonesia. This is because East Timor’s GUILT CARD approach to governance and foreign relations won’t wash with Indonesia.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

If Marxists like Alkatiri are the future of East Timor then perhaps North Korea can come in the help him keep the peace instead of Australia. Let him go back to Mozambique where he belongs.

I agree with the author totally, it is like receiving fresh air, when i read honest observations about such an important issue which effects so many human beings who are really stuggling against poverty of all kinds.
Leigh seems to be a fan of Gerard Henderson, i am not, as Henderson is a true blue conservative.
The Prime Minister of East Timor became an enemy of the Howard government, when he was fighting for a fair deal for his country, re the gas and oil resources in the seas close to East Timor.
Howard snubbed International Law and the people of East Timor by robbing them of millions of dollars, which would have helped with the welfare and future of the citizens of East Timor. Howard was less than charitable and showed contempt and arrogance toward the people, who needed the money more than Howard's National interest for Australia.
Congressmen in the USA made comment about Howard's theft at the time.
Howard is and was a player in the current crisis for the people of East Timor, due to his burglary and failure to recognise the needs and aspirations of an already traumatised people, in beginning a new place for themselves among other free citizens of the world.
Howard has shown once again that he is not a people person, he is a patsy for bullies and greedy corporates, more powerful than he, himself, and his selfish aspirations to impress them, and be more like them in every way.
Failed State is an oxymoron. Failed people is more close to the truth.

Sarah10

You are correct (in your bland idealism that is).

It is not Australia's legitimate national interests and genuine concern for East Timor's tentative steps towards stable government that are the problems. Its Mr Howard (the meany!) personally picking on those unfortunate East Timorese.

Its right that you point should out that US Congressmen have been critical. What higher authority do we Australians need?

I'm glad Australia's inexperienced "idealistas" have found their Venezuela of the South Seas (a good third world Latin cause at last! Well almost).

Unfortunatunately its left to experienced parts of the Australian Government to assist East Timor towards responsibility, again.

East Timor can play the GUILT CARD and BLAME Australia for its growing pains. As I've said before if East Timor doesn't grow up Australia may need to take Indonesia's territorial claims to this former Portugese colony more seriously...

Then you could shift your blame from Australia and (bad, bad) Mr Howard somewhere else.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Sarah
Take heart as an idealist you have nothing to concern yourself with views from a medieval royalist and other cynics
I have been supporting East Timorese Independence since 1974 when the bloodless coup took over from the ruling Portuguese Fascists.
I first became aware of the Maubere peoples quest for Independence in 1975 when I witnessed the 1st anniversary celebrations of the founding of Fretilin on 20th May 1975 when upwards of 150 thousand demonstrated their overwhelming support for Fretilin policies.
The elites who formed the UDT staged their first Coup attempt in August 1975 because they feared they would lose a democratic election. That attempt was briefly quelled after the leaders fled across the border and sought support from Indonesia who invaded in November/December 1975.
The present destabilisation is perpetrated by the same elements who oppose Alkatiri's economic agenda of sustainable development and have moved to sieze power without facing the forthcoming election in 2007.If they get their way they will opt for plunging the country into debt to further their own ends of personal enrichment.
They are being aided and abetted by the ADF who continue to tolerate intimidation of the population by anti-Alkatiri "rent a crowd mobs" of young thugs,manipulated by government opposition
and are attempting to block pro-government supporters from entering Dili. The ADF have been politicised to the point where they are taking sides with the rebels against the democratically elected Government.
Only the blind believe that the "Charismatic Xanana Gusmao" and his friend Jose Ramos Horta (who are Australia's preferred rulers)are not part of the problem.
Their agenda of using Marxist and Communist tags is designed to smash Fretilin but make no mistake,Fretilin represent the majority of the people who are neither Marxist or Communist.
Some consider that the Alkatiri Government's agreement to accept 250 Cuban doctors to alleviate serious health problems throughout the country and establish a medical faculty in the East Timor University is an indication of their political leanings.
I reckon Australia would do well to follow their example and to hell with what he Americans think.....

Maracas

"medieval royalist"?! True but only for the attractive Princess and Prince of Denmark (not Hamlet that is).

I appreciate your founding loyalty to Fretilin and your perhaps unsurpassed knowledge of that countries history and politics. If only someone from DFAT who knows more could come into bat - however I suspect that what is left in DFAT have double-barrel names, sound like Downer, and are gagged from writing on the net. So its up to centrist bloggers (with shady pasts) to state a case.

So from what you say there has been infighting between East Timorese faction since at least 1975. The right of Australia to take sides (if it is doing that) is because Australia freed East Timor from vicious Indonesian colonialism and is now providing a hefty slice (most?) of East Timor’s national income in the form of aid and assistance. You could correct me on how many Eat Timorese are physically in the oil industry from which they share (or will share) the agreed profits…

Even if Alkatiri is getting a raw deal from some of his political opponents he clearly can't handle them as a moderator and leader should. If he descends to backing a private army (or at least goon squad) like his opponents he is failing in his role as a democratic leader. Alkatiri's sacking does not automatically mean that the dreams of Fretilin and the East Timorese people are being dashed.

I know many in the ADF in all sorts of areas and in East Timor they are not acting independently of the close direction of our Government. Our Government is representing the Australian people’s legitimate interests in East Timor. To be truthful if the East Timorese weren't significantly Christian East Timor would still be part of Indonesia, oil or no oil.

If Alkatiri, and the more idealistic remnants of Fretilin, want to divest themselves of the "Marxist" tag they should not pull extraordinarily provocative stunts like agreeing to "accept 250 Cuban doctors". Before one can say "I can feel a Nicaragua coming on" Fretilin should grow up.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Is it time for Mr Howard to say "we were wrong, East Timor can't govern itself"? The silent part of the statment being "we won't now stop in Indonesias way".

An astute observer would note that the supporters of Gusmao and Horta are the ones doing the burning and looting under the protection of the ADF who appear unable to do what they were sent there for....keep the peace.
The anti-Alkatiri forces are still terrorising internal refugees who are Fretilin supporters ...What are Gusmao and Horta doing to stop them ? Can't you see the unrest is politically motivated and Horta and Gusmao are also involved ? Their motive is to achieve through a grab for power what they cannot achieve through a democratic election process. The allegations against Alkatiri have no substance.
Alkatiri has spoken to Pro Fretilin supporters and encouraged them not to enter Dili to express their support for the Democratically elected Government until the opposing 'gangs' leave, yet he is described by the captive media as inflaming further unrest !!
The biggest donor country is not Australia but Portugal. Australia has stolen East Timor's resources on the basis of an agreement that was made with Indonesia during that country's occupation of East Timor.Any financial support Australia offers is purely returning stolen asset.
No Australian Government supported Independence for East Timor. Howard did not send troops in until the TNI Militias had killed hundreds, sacked Dili and forcibly kidnapped about 150000 to West Timor.
The Alkatiri Government's decision to accept doctors from Cuba was a good decision despite the wrath of the Americans. I spoke to a minister for health last week who said he would like to have 200 doctors from Cuba.
Gusmao's enfolding agenda is to attempt to destroy Fretilin through East Vs West contrived rivalry.
Wake up Australia to what our Government is being a party to.

maracas

The kind of thing that removes goodwill of so many Australians about the plight of East Timorese is the position you're taking.

Your position appears to be:

- there is nothing good about Australia's key contribution in helping the East Timorese since 1999.

- Portugal represents goodness and its contribution is therefore recognised.

- East Timor is an opportunity for a socialist experiment, eg. bring on the Cuban doctors.

- media reports and anything else that runs contrary to the position that Alkatiri can do no wrong are lies, damn lies.

- don't mention how much worse things were under the Indonesians, only criticise the "neocolonialist" of the moment.

- the US (presumably the evil bastion of capitalism) is pulling the strings.

- Australia has no initiative or legitimate national interests.

I try and see your side. Some of your observations seem accurate but by not acknowledging Australia's positive contribution (now or in the past) you weaken your arguments and turn off a potentially sympathetic audience.

That said I appreciate that you are committed to something important.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Yeap, East Timor is clearly a failed state. It couldn't even control its capital Dili and needs thousands of foreign troops to (unsuccessfully) maintain law and order. Anybody that denies the failed state of East Timor is delusional. East Timor is clearly better-off under Indonesia.

Under 400 years of Portuguese rule, there were but 50kms of roads ever built, all of them in Dili. There were only ONE highschool in the whole half-island, practically NO healthcare, and extremely high levels of illiteracy. The Portuguese didn't even bother converting East Timor into Christianity, with 2/3 of the population remaining animist in 1975.

Under Indonesia, the entire East Timor is covered by well-maintained road network, schools were built in every village bringing literacy up dramatically to over 70% in very short time. Indonesian healthcare allows a population boom that meant East Timorese population doubled from 500,000 in 1970 to nearly one million by 1999. Our subsidies and floor-pricing system for East Timorese agricultural products ensures healthy economic growth and East Timorese experienced increasing prosperity.

Our anti-communist campaign meant Indonesia forced nearly all East Timorese to join Catholic Church. Our president Suharto built the second-largest Jesus statue in the world (Christo Rei) in Dili in 1995, while he also built the largest cathedral in SE Asia, the Cathedral of Immaculate Conception, in 1987.

After independence, every quality-of-life indicator has gone down the drains. Lack of maintenance meant Indonesian-built road network shrunk rapidly each year, and most parts of the country can now only be accessed on the back of a pony.

Collapse of education system meant illiteracy now returns to 60% and growing. Health system all but collapsed with lowest life expectantcy and highest infant mortality in Asia. The economic system all but collapsed, with East Timor being the poorest "country" in earth. Focus on coffee industry has all but failed thanks to persistently low world coffee price, while it is approximated that this year's violence shrunk East Timorese GDP by nearly 50%, further strengthening East Timorese position as poorest people in the world.

So yeap, ET-is-a-failed-state-and-there-is-simply-no-hope-for-the-future. They-were-fooled-by-foreign-propaganda-promising-nirvana-and-simply-made-the-wrong-choice-back-in-1999.

Proud to be Indonesian

Its rare that an Indonesian goes into bat over East Timor these days.

While I’m critical of the performance of leftwing dominated Fretilin and of maracas’ attitude, the history of the Indonesian occupation between 1975 and 1999 is nothing to boast about. Many of the current economic and infrastructure problems you point to are part of “Indonesia’s parting gift to East Timor” in 1999.

Maracas will have no love of the source of the following assessment, but, the information is checked by those without a humanitarian axe to grind:

“[East Timor] was incorporated into Indonesia in July 1976 as the province of East Timor. An unsuccessful campaign of pacification followed over the next two decades, during which an estimated 100,000 to 250,000 individuals lost their lives.

On 30 August 1999, in a UN-supervised popular referendum, an overwhelming majority of the people of East Timor voted for independence from Indonesia. Between the referendum and the arrival of a multinational peacekeeping force in late September 1999, anti-independence Timorese militias - organized and supported by the Indonesian military - commenced a large-scale, scorched-earth campaign of retribution.

The militias killed approximately 1,400 Timorese and forcibly pushed 300,000 people into West Timor as refugees.

The majority of the country's infrastructure, including homes, irrigation systems, water supply systems, and schools, and nearly 100% of the country's electrical grid were destroyed.

On 20 September 1999 the Australian-led peacekeeping troops of the International Force for East Timor (INTERFET) deployed to the country and brought the violence to an end.”

From the CIA World Fact Book, 2006 http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/tt.html

If you have a problem with the accuracy of this source consider SBY’s past in America and the US' increasingly close relations with Indonesia. The US would not want to put Indonesia offside. The CIA assessment appears fair (in this case).

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

Did anyone else see the Dateline (I think) show about Cuba's health system? They are doing very very well (lower child mortality than the United States) and train (for free) prospective doctors from around the developing world. Accepting 250 Cuban doctors, who are used to working in 'developing' conditions, seems like a highly sensible thing for Timor Leste to do, and stuff the perceptions.

Afterall, Australia is hardly likely to have an extra 250 doctors available for them to use to build up the health system - we don't have enough for ourselves.

Yes, Indonesians are happy because we are now free from East Timor problem. If they choose to continue to kill each other, that's their choice and has nothing to do with Indonesia.
The good thing is that now our govt closed the land border between East Timor and West Timor, so that East Timorese cannot cross the border as they wish. Not like in 1975 and 1999, where hundreds of thousands of East Timorese burdened Wes Timor province.

"The militias killed approximately 1,400 Timorese and forcibly pushed 300,000 people into West Timor as refugees."

It's amazing to see how people perceive lies as if it is truth! And continue to do so.
http://www.ourcivilisation.com/decline/example/masskill.htm

I do feel for ordinary East Timorese.
SBY made a good decision to close the land border, but Xanana asked him to reopen the border for trafficking goods, and SBY agree. Many of you do not realize that East Timorese still depend so much on Indonesian goods, which are imported through Indonesia West Timor land border. Almost everything, from cigarette, soap, tooth paste, rice, sugar, fuel, clothes, sandals, shoes, etc, are imported from Indonesia. And many shops in East Timor are run by Indonesians. But now many are closed, or maybe even looted. So it become more difficult for East Timorese to buy things.

I guess it's only Indonesians who were not surprise at all with the recent violence in East Timor.
They killed each other in 1975 (and also long before that),
they killed each other in 1999, (you put the blame on Indonesia, but it's East Timorese who killed each other).
they kill each other now, and I am sure they will continue to do so.
Mark my word. Don't be surprise.

Thank god it's no longer our problem. We are free now.
How sweet the freedom is. Freedom from the burden that is East Timor, thanks to Habibie.

@Plantagenet:

Suffice to say no Indonesian put any value into these inaccurate "assessments", and neither do most of the world's population since 165 countries just elected Indonesia into the UN Human Rights Council. The reason is simple: these allegations bear no relation whatsoever to the truth. Many Indonesians know this because they've worked or know someone who've worked in East Timor to improve ET's lot.

The fact is, East Timorese population actually DOUBLES from 500,000 (Portuguese census 1974) to one million (UN census 2000) during Indonesian rule thanks to our healthcare service, making rubbish of any claims of "genocide". It is simply logically impossible for the population to be "reduced by one-third" while the clear fact is the population actually doubles.

As for the 1999 events, it is clear the perpetrator of the destruction then are the East Timorese themselves. As we can see today, East Timorese main hobby is BBQ-ing their own cities and towns to ashes. Last week, they managed to burn down 60% of Dili within a few days under the nose of Australian soldiers. Within short time, you now have 200,000 people forced to become refugees. The situation in 1999 is very similar like today, with Indonesian soldiers unwilling to take tough action to stop the violence (like the situation of Australian soldiers today) to avoid charges of "human rights violations". Only after a few weeks of joint Indonesian-Australian patrols, eventually the riots burn itself out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/purnomor/purnomor/UT0007469.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/purnomor/purnomor/UT0007414.jpg
PICS OF INDONESIAN SOLDIERS PATROLLING TOGETHER WITH AUSTRALIAN SOLDIERS

Additionally, no roads or other infrastructure was destroyed in 1999. The collapse of East Timorese economy, health, and education systems cannot be blamed on Indonesia. As we see now, East Timorese has come to realise this fact and have start blaming those responsible for the collapse of their living standards: THEIR OWN GOVT.

It is clear, Indonesians can be proud of their benevolent attempt to improve the lots of the East Timorese, and rightly so.

@Laurie:

It-is-very-interesting-that-four-Cuban-doctors-working-in-East-Timor-have-crossed-the-border-illegally-to-Indonesia. Appearantly-these-Cubans-want-to-seek-asylum-to-USA, just-like-what-millions-of-Cubans-tried-to-do-each-year. Seems-like-living-in-USA-is-every-Cubans'-ultimate-dream.

Sure, but that dosn't make Timor Leste's decision to accept their doctors any less sensible. Cuba's doctors are paid shockingly, but that dosn't mean they're unskilled.

PTBI says :
"As for the 1999 events, it is clear the perpetrator of the destruction then are the East Timorese themselves. As we can see today, East Timorese main hobby is BBQ-ing their own cities and towns to ashes. Last week, they managed to burn down 60% of Dili within a few days under the nose of Australian soldiers."

How true, PTBI, thank you.
They always say things like "pro-Jakarta militia", while in fact they are East Timorese. Also in 1999 there were some pro-Indonesian East Timorese killed by pro-independence East Timorese, but Australian media did not bother to report this.

They used to see East Timorese as victims, now they are surprise to see the victims become the monsters themselves.

Amazing to see how easy people get themselves fooled.
They even believe in nonsense rumor who claim that Habibie said "not to leave even an ant live" in East Timor back then. What a big joke, but there are people who actually BELIEVE in that nonsense! Can you believe it?!

I am not proud with Suharto's regime, but I read somewhere that his govt said that giving referendum to East Timor was impossible because it would make East Timor descend into civil war.
Also read it somewhere that when Habibie brought up his intention to give East Timor referendum in his cabinet meeting, the only member of his cabinet who disagree was FM Ali Alatas, who concerned that East Timor would descend into civil war.
I wish East Timorese prove themselves that both Suharto and Ali Alatas prediction about East Timor civil war, were wrong.

@Ningtyas:

Sama2x :-)

@Laurie:

It wouldn't be so sensible if these Cuban doctors keep abandoning their jobs and flee to Indonesia in order to achieve their ultimate dream of gaining asylum in the USA

Maracas, if you are still returning to this thread, be assured that most of us are not unseated by noise.

The VU meter says that you have touched a nerve. Well done!

In your absence, I will post an invaluable link or two. Viz:

http://www.parasindonesia.com/read.php?gid=367

- and -

http://www.parasindonesia.com/read.php?gid=361

- and -

http://nautilus.rmit.edu.au/forum-reports/0618a-tanter.html

Enjoy!

some intelligent links there Chris Shaw.
Mari Alkatiri's most recent statements following his self sacrifice indicate he is prepared to put the interests of the Country before his own unlike the egocentric position of Xanana Gusmao.

Alkatiri has called on Fretilin Militants who participated in a non-violent,disciplined demonstration of around 6000 to reject violence and divisive east/west rhetoric in the interests of the Country.

This is in stark contrast to the behaviour of the pro Gusmao elements who continue to terrorise,loot and burn Dili.Gusmao has called for calm but his supporters have not heeded his call.

Jose Ramos Horta continues to hover in the wings hoping for an appointment as Prime Minister. A position he has a snowballs chance in hell of achieving in an election.

A resolution of the crisis depends on the willingness of the instigators of the violence to enter into dialogue. Now is the time for President Gusmao to display leadership instead of knee jerk reaction to the very dubious Liz Jackson's Four Corners program constructed on unproven allegations which gave air time to the anti Government forces and didn't even interview Alkatiri whilst it proceeded to demonise him.

PTBI and Ningtyas

Nothing like a robust exchange of views between neighbors.

The difference between our countries is that many Australians publicly admit where we have let down East Timorese. It appears from your comments that any possibility of Indonesian wrongdoing is met by denial.

Its not encouraging that Maracas appears to have decided to ignore your denial.

This has several possibilities/implications:

- that the Fretilin support base line is to only criticize the “neocolonialist” situation of the moment

- that Fretilin has a policy of good relations with Indonesia and now wishes to submerge the past, and

Maracas silence suggests that Indonesian rule must have been benevolent after all… ;-)

Its plain to me that the population statistics on which you (and the CIA) base your opposing arguments of East Timorese deaths are a flawed methodology - because your differing assessments of the data are so contradictory. So arguing the numbers appears pointless.

In the end the hard left of Fretilin will critisize the white "imperialists" no matter what they do. If Fretilin now wishes to ignore what Indonesia has done perhaps Australia should hand the baby back to you.

Pete

Plantagenet
Due to previously encountering the crazy logic of our Indonesian apologists in previous forums I decided as did others that you cant put brains into morons so I dont even bother to acknowledge their rantings let alone waste time reacting to their extremism.
Re the current crisis in East Timor,there is not enough space in this forum to adequately analyse the causes but ignoring the misleading and one sided media, the real story is slowly emerging and all the players in the drama have yet to be identified. It can be said though that without the distortions of fact the demonisation of Mari Alkatiri is only the first stage in attempts to destroy Fretilin the majority party that truly represents the aspirations of the Maubere people.

to Plantagenet,
I do not always agree with PTBI. However, his comment about the 1999 event was true.

"The difference between our countries is that many Australians publicly admit where we have let down East Timorese."

The problem is, you all always treat us as if we are still in Soeharto era. I have said in previous posts, that many horrible things indeed happen in Soeharto era. Not only in East Timor and Papua, but everywhere in Indonesia.
I also have admitted that Indonesian trying to integrate East Timor to Indonesia was a mistake. And to let it go was the best decision ever made. They can never see the goods we have done, only the bads.

What used to be our headache, is now yours, Australians. Enjoy!
And let Indonesians enjoy our precious freedom from East Timor headache! :-)

As for the numbers of casualties, well.Exaggerating event and numbers are one of their way to get sympathie, aid and support. In the past, inflating those number did work well. But I believe the world could not be manipulated by number forever. Sooner or later, the truth will be revealed. Just wait.

"In the end the hard left of Fretilin will critisize the white "imperialists" no matter what they do. If Fretilin now wishes to ignore what Indonesia has done perhaps Australia should hand the baby back to you."

What do you mean? If you suggest that East Timor should be handed back to Indonesia, then NO THANK YOU! Are you kidding? Who ever wants to be back to the worst nightmare?

It's funny, though Pete. In another forum I read an Australian suggest that the Portuguese should rule back East Timor. While in Indonesian forum, an Indonesian suggest that it's Australia who should rule East Timor.
Come on! East Timor is a sovereign state! Why talk like that?
East Timor is free to govern themselves. Whether the freedom means freedom to fight each other within it's own country, that's another story. Let them prove that they can. Right, maracas? :)

Maracas

Thanks for your response. I assume you are criticising Indonesia’s record to the extent you are permitted ;-)

A democratic East Timorese government can probably exist without Mari Alkatiri heading it. In any case he might resume his position once elections are held, who knows!

Noting that Australia was under effective military dictatorship (run be serving naval or army officers as Governor and the NSW Corps for the first few decades of its existence) it takes a while for new nations to develop and for their leaders to be broadly accepted internally and otherwise. This is, of course, small comfort to the East Timorese who have died or are starving because of the fighting.

NINGTYAS

I’m glad you differentiate yourself from some of PTBI’s positions. Nothing like a diversity of opinions.

Thank you for acknowledging that, like Australia, Indonesia is not perfect. Its true that many in Australia (and in the West generally) view Indonesia as heavily influenced by your military (with Soeharto being the obvious symbol).

One could argue that Indonesia’s emasculation of East Timor in 1999 occurred after Soeharto left power (in May 1998). I suspect, though, that hardline Indonesia military leaders in East Timor (who of course grew up in the Soeharto tradition of military dominance) hold major responsibility for what happened. I think that Indonesia’s increasingly democratic, civilian institutions are growing away from this tradition – though West Papua is a worry.

The Indonesian army can always claim (and it receives Western backing) that it needs to be strong to combat radical Islam. This no doubt puts pressure on democratic institutions.

continued...

Ningtyas Response Continued.

On your question about my suggestion East Timor be “handed back” and why can’t East Timorese be left to fight it out independently:

I’m talking more about the reality that if Australia did not step-in to stop the instability and suffering in East Timor a power vacuum would be created which some other country or radical political swing (to the Left or Right) might fill.

Even Maracas would not want an East Timorese government run by a military junta (something about Hitler and his flipside Mao and "power coming from the barrel of a gun"). The Australian, and other, troops will eventually leave - a military junta wouldn't

A stable East Timorese Government to negotiate with about oil is also an important Australian national interest.

I’m sure of this – the oil imperative partially explains many actions countries take (see my latest blog post on this). This imperative is legitimate. Its amoral but not evil

As Indonesia borders East Timor Indonesia has the greatest interest in stability being restored.

One reason the West (admittedly) backed Soeharto was his anti communist stance. When people start talking Cuban doctors presumably that might be only the beginning if East Timor tipped further towards the left. I imagine Indonesia would not want to see leftist radicalism spread to other areas of the archipelago -including other Christian areas...

Given their previous record in East Timor and their former African colonies I don’t think the Portuguese are capable, in the long term, of assisting East Timor beyond nostalgia.

Hopefully Jose Ramos Horta will get things back on an even keel and deepen the democratic beginnings, even if Alkatiri eventually returns.

I think there should be time for East Timor to catch its breath rather than fighting a civil war.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com

@Plantagenet:

There is nothing flawed about our statistics, mate. The 1974 statistic came from the Portuguese on the eve of collapse of their rule over East Timor, while the 2000 census came from UN. I think the truth is undeniable: THERE WAS NEVER ANY GENOCIDE IN EAST TIMOR

No wonder, East Timorese govt prior to its collapse strongly opposed any open international tribunal which will demolish the myth of "genocide", the original raison d'etre for East Timorese "independence" in the first place.

BTW Indonesian people and military are very united. It is very mistaken for you to consider Indonesian civilians for some reason dislike the military.

This is because the people understand the military's heroic role in defending the country from Dutch invasion during war of independence, and their heroic role as the successful defender of secular nationalist ideology "Pancasila" from the subversion attempts by radical Islamists (DI-TII) and communists (PKI) during early years of independence.

Today, for Indonesia's masses from all ethnicity and religion, a job in the military has always been their dream career opportunity as it provide the number one vertical mobility (Suharto and SBY rose from being poor peasants into presidents of Indonesia).

When facing external threat or a minor internal one such as separatism, rest assured the entire Indonesian people are united as ONE BODY with the military (TNI manunggal dengan rakyat). This is because the Indonesian military came from the people, for the people. Right now, Indonesian people see the military as DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY against the ideological enemy of Pancasila, the radical Islamists who intend to create an Islamic state in Indonesia.

LONG LIVE HEROIC INDONESIAN MILITARY! LONG LIVE INDONESIAN PEOPLE! LONG LIVE PANCASILA! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!

DEATH TO ISLAMIC RADICALISM! DEATH TO SEPARATISM!

@maracas:

Shouting in this forum is useless, mate. As you'd know, when dealing with East Timor, the truth never matters and is completely irrelevant.

What matters is the perception formed in overseas media. Currently, the entire international media (even in BBC) has ganged-up against your boyfriend Alkatiri, portraying him as the devil while Xanana and Ramos-Horta get the part of heavenly angels.

With the enemies he's up against, there is no chance for your lover to change his demonic image. Basically he is doomed. You'll be better-off looking for a new boyfriend. :-)

Plantagenet,
"I suspect, though, that hardline Indonesia military leaders in East Timor (who of course grew up in the Soeharto tradition of military dominance) hold major responsibility for what happened."
I wonder if you will still hold that suspicion, if in the future you see yet again East Timorese burn their cities and kill their fellow Timorese.
Remember, when some Pro-Indonesian East Timorese in West Timor terrorized people in refugee camps, you all put pressure on Indonesia. But just days ago, East Timorese in East Timor did the very same thing ; terrorize refugees camp in East Timor! No Indonesia to blame; you just need to know East Timorese better.

"I’m talking more about the reality that if Australia did not step-in to stop the instability and suffering in East Timor a power vacuum would be created which some other country or radical political swing (to the Left or Right) might fill."

No longer our concern. We have suffered enough from taking care of East Timor; it's costly, it tarnished our international image, all for nothing while all we wanted to do was to help them!

"As Indonesia borders East Timor Indonesia has the greatest interest in stability being restored."

If they have a bloody conflict again, we will just close the border swiftly; so that the violence won't spread to our land, people won't exodus to our land enmasse, and elements of conflict won't misuse our land. We will help them only if asked.

"I imagine Indonesia would not want to see leftist radicalism spread to other areas of the archipelago -including other Christian areas.
Given their previous record in East Timor and their former African colonies I don’t think the Portuguese are capable, in the long term, of assisting East Timor beyond nostalgia."

It's not our concern anymore. We would not intervene in their internal affair, never again. Leave it to them!
After East Timor, it's Indonesia-Australia relation that will never be the same again.

"I think there should be time for East Timor to catch its breath rather than fighting a civil war."

I do hope so

Australia is so strange.
You push so hard for East Timor independence, and then, you do not respect them and treat them as if East Timor a sovereign state. Make us wonder. Portuguese and Malaysia and New Zealand also help East Timor with their troops, but they do respect the troubled country.

Is your pushing so hard for it's independence is all about oil?
You think it's amoral but not evil, Pete? But I think it's beyond evil.
When will you treat them as a sovereign state? After they have signed the oil agreement?! Poor Timorese!

Ningtyas

I can understand why you find Australia such a conundrum. However, i think you are confusing the agenda of our government with the views of many Australians. For the government it IS all about Oil/gas for people like myself it is about independence for those who desire it.

Many Australians remember the support given by the East Timorese during WW2, as a result we hold strong bonds of friendship.

Our government cynically recognises this and provides only enough aid to E. Timor to appear as though Australia is helping but the reality is that they are only doing enough to maintain their interests in energy resources. A strong and independent East Timor means that the Australian government would have to deal fairly over the energy reserves, this is why it pulled support out prematurely and prefers that East Timor remains a 'failed state'. Its all about power.

For me, it is beyond amorality, you are correct; it is indeed evil.

@Scout:

You're quite right about Australia being evil, but regardless of whether Australian govt behave in a virtuous or an evil manner, East Timor will always be a failed state. To mention a "strong and independent" East Timor is an oxymoron, like mentioning "a healthy syphilis patient".

East Timor is simply not fit to be an "independent state", it is inherently flawed concept. This is because East Timor is an unsustainable artificial construct born out of Portuguese vanity and President Habibie's mood swings. Had Indonesia's president in 1999 was not Habibie or if he been in different mood, East Timor is for certain will still be part of Indonesia today.

East Timor's "independence" is solely a gift from Habibie, given although East Timor has absolutely no foundation for a "state". History is not kind to states that are created due to a person's mood swing.

So, don't be so hard on yourself, Australia cannot be blamed for the failure of a fatally-flawed concept such as "East Timor state".

The left wing of Fretilin should note that Australia is not a completely selfless buddy of East Timor. This is the real world and we are grownups. If a UN coalition of countries is going to carry guns on East Timor's territory that is sad, but East Timor could do worse.

For example PTBI's references above to East Timor's independence arising from "Habibie's mood swings" is an interesting argument. Maybe Habibie is a good man. I wonder what PTBI is going to insinuate next...

PTBI has already stated in capitals:

"LONG LIVE HEROIC INDONESIAN MILITARY! LONG LIVE INDONESIAN PEOPLE! LONG LIVE PANCASILA! LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY!

DEATH TO ISLAMIC RADICALISM! DEATH TO SEPARATISM!"

Unless I am mistaken PTBI's views above are sincerely held by most Indonesians. If there are moderate Indonesians out there please correct this conception.

Pete

PANCASILA The 1945 constitution was formed on a reasonable system. I like the reference to humanity and justice. Extreme Islamic people disagree with this consititution as it gives too much to humanity and justice.

This is in line with PTBI's affirmation against extreme Islamists.

Why do some Australians have a problem with this balanced system?

They are tough on drugs.

However, the latest cases were a set-up from Australian authorities in our Airports to embarrass the Indonesians. They let the drugs slide right under their radar for the drug carriers to fall into a diplomatic trap. Terrorist bombs to Bali could have passed under the radar at Sydney Airport too. This was Australia's trap.

It would have been wise for Indonesia to not allow Corby and the 9 heroin carriers to actually leave the airport at all, but just to just send them back to Australia with the evidence, instructions to confiscate their passports upon return, stamped: "never to return to Indonesia". They could have then exposed the Australian corruption, the trap: walk away smelling like roses. That's just my opinion.

Other Islamic countries like Algeria are in chaos. They technically have "government", but everyone knows that the terrorists have run the place since the 1990 amnesty on terrorism: a failure.

Turkey has an improved legal system lately, it has had to since the "Midnight Express" days. Turkey is becoming more European, desperate to join the EU.

What PTBI, I think, is trying to affirm, is that they are unique as an Islamic country, as their constitution does not allow for extreme views.

This seems to hold their country together. This is the opposite to an extreme view in Indonesia.

Why are we suddenly back-flipping the spin that Timor leste may not be a failure? Is this because the Portugese and New Zealanders arrived to take control and they are actually respected by the locals?

I believe my watch. Australia thinks in a predictable clockwork: it gets what it wants. This was always an agenda for oil. Do you believe the Australian media?