ARJAY.... well said mate..

Quote.

"We have removed the survival component from a culture that once thrived on the challenge that most of us could never endure.

To remove the reason for one's existence is the cruelest cut.Just to be paid for existing,is like being in gaol,there is no reason to learn or evolve. "

At last someone with white eyes is seeing things in black. You are probably the CLOSEST to the real nub of the problem, (as opposed to its symptoms) than just about any other poster mate.

Johnj.. u went on about health, drinking water, etc etc.. Arjay refers to the fact that these things were never a problem to the true traditional Aboriginal. They would have derived their self esteem FROM the knowledge which gave them all these things.

Take them away... take away the need to RELY on that knowledge, and you attack the very soul of a person. No amount of 'public health' initiatives or better housing will EVER solve that problem.

This is why I say that the happiest Aboriginals I know, are Christian ones. They have found in Christ, the One who meets them at their deepest point of need. Self worth and renewal, direction, meaning, a place in the sun. (this applies to all of us)

Aboriginals who are not Christian and not Traditional, are in psychological and cultural limbo.. nowheresville.

He's a real nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.

Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, please listen,
You don't know what you're missing,

(Thanx to John Lennon).

'I came that they might have life, and have it abundantly'....Jesus

ARJAY.... well said mate..

Quote.

"We have removed the survival component from a culture that once thrived on the challenge that most of us could never endure.

Yes, But our wonderfully myopic Arjay would not support the repatriation of stolen lands and wages that created this dependancy now would he.

Boaz, well that makes about a half dozen happy Aborigines you know. Hardly evidence of Christian sucess. FACT: Your Christianising and Civlising approach created much heart ache. Your fundamentalist zealotry aside, you really need to become more informed about our history and less focused on what you think our history was.

Are we going back to the "noble warrior" myth again? Can you prove that blacks were happier, healthier, more ordered in their natural nomadic life?
Or was it just the strongest [males] who had the best of it?
On television a while ago , an early documentary of the discovery of the desert people showed people who were literally starving when they were found, I have never seen such thin bodies since the war ended and our troops were liberated from Jap POW camps.They looked like stick people.
No human should have to live like that, but many inland tribes would have had it hard. Nothing noble about being perpetually hungry.

Ranier... you as a would be scholar should KNOW much better than to group ALL 'Missionaries/Churches' into a statement like "your Christianizing and civilizing" as if its some kind of monolithic experience.

Even saying "our history" (in reference to Aboriginals)is not valid I feel,its as diverse as there are tribes and the varying encounter types they had with the whites.

I don't think Arjay would have the feelings you expressed....about unpaid wages... I sure don't, I wholeheartedly support the idea of paying with interest to the descendants what is owed.

Your problem (dare I say it) is that you think you have a mortgage on your own situation to the point where even when someone supports many of your contentions, or is supportive of Indigenous rights (as far as can be accomodated within the framework of the country) you bite them on the bum as if they are some kind of intruder....

I don't know that many Indigenous Christians, but I do know some, and I know about others. Lets remember something, they are not in some kind of cultural or racial prison, they are free thinking individuals and if they decide to give their lives to Christ, its their business alone.

As Fox News is always saying "We report/ you decide" so it is for us, we proclaim/you decide. As it was for those crucified with Jesus, one cursed him, the other requested a place in paradise, and realized his own sin. It will always be that way while we have freedom of choice. When the Titanic went down, there were only 2 kinds of passengers. The saved, and the Lost.

I hope the Holy Spirit breaks down those barriers in your own heart, because only when you know the Lord who is proclaimed to you, will you truly know life and exchange the bitterness which comes through so much of your posts, with a peace and a joy from above.
It is beyond race and culture, and certainly is NOT 'White mans' thing.

Mickjo" The noble savage myth?"There are no absolute truths to the quality of life many of the aborigines had pre-1788.I suspect those who lived on the coast with fishing skills had a pretty good living,while those in a desert environment had to work a whole lot harder.They definitely did a whole lot better than the petrol sniffers and child rapists of todays dysfunctional society.

They were however made to feel inferior by an more economically advanced society,and there is the rub also for many in our own society today,who feel less valued because of their job description.

Aborigines don't have the monopoly on being oppressed on this planet.Pre-European invasion/settlement Aborigines were also involved with surival and inter-tribal conflicts.It was never a bed of roses for the settlers or the Aborigines.It was survival of the fittest.The life of a nomad would have always been about survival; and without specialisation/farming,very little time to learn.

Too often in contempoary society we aspire to the non productive Hollywood glitz of image without substance,and don't value those who do the ordinary jobs that make our society function,hence we tend to have this social unrest because indivuals are defined by their job rather than who they are as responsible citizens.

Just the simple courtesy of showing respect and manners to all in which we come in contact with,will make Australia a better place to live in,since humans do crave respect from their peers and falsely see money alone,as the avenue for this goal.

Money buys us time to do the things we crave,but in the world of real achievement,it will never buy us respect.

Anyone,no matter what their race will never be happy with just a pile of money,since in the long run we are social beings who want to connect with honest achievement.

To rancitas:

I won’t bother dissecting in detail the pretentious claptrap you’ve written, but can you satisfy my curiosity on one point? When you wrote“There are many aspects of indigenous culture that are valuable and valued by Australians”, I expected some examples of these “valuable and valued aspects” to follow, but none did. And try as I might, I can’t think of any. Would you like to enlighten us all by giving us a brief list of these admirable aspects of indigenous culture, please?