As John Morton points out, we routinely hear about “the oldest living culture in the world” in reference to Aboriginal culture. My response to that is, "So what?" The only way Aboriginal culture became the "oldest living culture in the world" is because Aboriginal people lived on a fairly barren island that was of very, very limited interest to other peoples of the world.

Is that a value judgment? No more so than saying that Aboriginal culture is "worthy" because of the simple fact that it is the world's oldest living culture. In fact, is Aboriginal culture the world's oldest living culture? What about the culture of the San people in southern Africa? Isn’t that equally ancient?

It's also interesting to note that another word that is applied to the culture of people who live on islands with very little contact with the outside world is "insular". It's a term that is often used rather disparagingly in reference to English culture. But wasn't Aboriginal culture prior to 1788, the world's most insular culture?

What lessons are there for us today from the ultimate in insular cultures? The hunter-gatherer lifestyle is of absolutely no relevance to 21st Century Australia, while sacred landscapes are going to have less and less relevance as people embrace science rather than superstition as the answer for geological queries. After all, Uluru predates the Aboriginal occupation of central Australia by many, many millions of years. And no amount of regurgitating Tjukurpa stories by Parks Australia is going to change that

Apart from adacemics, aborigines themselves and a few left wing do-gooders and meddlers, most of us, if we are honest, don't give two hoots about aboriginal culture - or any other minority culture for that matter.

This is not disparaging of aboriginal Australians or other cultures; there is simply no need for us to have any interest. We have our own culture, and as long as we can rub along with others who have - or choose to have - different ideas, that's fine. We should all be part of one country and its laws. If some people are left out of the mainstream because of 'culture' or having a different outlook, that's their problem. They all have the opportunity to do something about it if they wish to.

Mr Morton's desire to avoid the debate about 'culture' is understandable, seeing as he perceives that it does not help in bettering the lot of Aboriginal Australians. The difficulty of pinning down a definition of 'culture' doesn't help. It would be wrong, however, to assume that it will let us "be allowed to get on with the job of finding appropriate solutions", simply because any public policy must react with Aboriginal people.

To discuss a solution to the terrible treatment of women and children, does is help us to know that the earliest explorers and colonisers of Australia noted the exact same thing? Would it help us to know that it was a cultural norm for women to be subjected to high levels of violence, be promised away at a very early age, and that there be tribal institutions which prepared women for the feeling of pain through violence, such as the severing of the little fingers of the women of one of the tribes encountered at Sydney Cove? I think the answer is yes. It is a "yes" because it acknowledges that we are dealing something that is deeply rooted in the practice of a group of people. A combination of a yearning for one's Aboriginal heritage, and a dose of European morality, has caused an utopian vision of Aboriginal society, which hides such practice.

If we keep clinging to myths such as the one outline above, public policy will not acknowledge how deep-seated the problems are, and therefore not be effective. Rather than avoiding the debate over culture/practice or whatever word one uses, we need to do so logically and dispassionately, in order to come closer to the truth. It does not help Aboriginal Australians to has a false understanding of their roots, and it does not help the government to have to dance around the issue.

It's not a time to give up, but to try harder.

Insightful..... about how 'white' eyes see the problem.

Indigenous Aussies need to do one of 2 things.

1/ DECIDE to adapt and adopt as far as possible the values and habits of the culture which has swamped them.

2/ DENY it, and maintain with tenacious determination a traditional life in so far as it does not conflict with the ruling laws.

But to be in the middle ? yikes. That is a lose lose situation.

There are various reasons for the losing nature of that path. WE are one of those reasons, and our democratic system which sees politicians seeking to find 'issues' and make political merit out of anything they can lay their germ encrusted hands on, which in the case of Labor, Liberal, Green and Democrats one of the juiciest morsels is 'The Indigenous Problem'.

But all approaches that I hear boil down to one thing:

"Throw more money at it"

I checked out Gary Foleys web site and it holds some interesting information. So sad to see the map dots of where and when massacres/murders/poisenings etc occurred.

In regard to choice '1' above, some of the best adjusted, happiest,joyful Aboriginal people are those who have embraced Christ. (no..I DON'T mean "The Church" in the way many would interpret that statement)

Jesus once said "If the evil spirit goes out of a man, it goes looking for a new place to dwell. If, on finding none it returns to find the place it left empty, it will re-inhabit that place, and the last state of that person will be seven times worse than the original"

You might not adhere to the 'theology' but it sure is good psychology.

If Aboriginals are 'exorcised' of their old culture, but then, find rejection and dissilusionment in the new they may revert to the old but with the addition of becoming militant/radical and violent.

Money is not the answer, unless it is used for anthropologists to understand the core problem, not the symptom.

"You want us to look like warriors, but not act like them" (Torres Straight Islander commenting on Indigenous identity.

Nice article. Yes Indigenous issues do get bogged down in stereotypes. No you cannot ignore culture.

Stereotyping is also usually a method of keeping us seperated. We need to see difference and diversity as a positive. The negative-stereotyping of Indigenous people is usually the domain of people who must be blind to the positive aspects of Indigenous folk. They ignore the positives to justify their racist, cultural supremacist attitudes. They chose to ignore the positives of other group's culture and, because of that, come to see difference as a negative.

There are many aspects of Indigenous culture that are valuable and valued by Australians.

However, child abuse, is wrong and our European-based, Indigenous influenced culture is superior in that aspect. I think most Indigenous people and their leaders would concede that. Just as the Christian church and followers have conceded that burning millions of pagans at the stake is/was wrong.

Culture is set in concrete - but it is dynamic too. Usually non-core aspects can be changed with out wrecking the gist. Indigenous culture has at its centre their connection to the land. The invasion stole that from them. Bit like when the Russian "communists" shut down the churches and stole its people's property.

The psychological and social impact of the theft of their central cultural pillar and the continuing struggle and confrontation with an unjust and racist society that just doesn't understand Indigenous culture and the collective pain Indigenous folk endure and the frustration felt at not being treated justly is still being seen and, ironically, used as a negative stereotype.

The various Indigenous cultures are not only struggling with that, they are also adapting to a vastly different law structure, seperation from traditional lands, and social environment.

The Indigenous culture is changing to accomadate wiser ways of living. All change involves some disruption and often distress. The rest of us need to be more helpful and not let the stereotyping and racism bury into the core of Australian culture and override the positive aspects and core belief of the Indigenous peoples and Australian culture generally.

I reckon some outrage therapy is needed in this debate.

Put it into the context of Human Rights and it becomes independent of culture. Argue your case in front of the UN on the basis of Human Rights and it's a no brainer.

Now, for the outrage being expressed. Have a look in your backyard. How many of you would allow your kids to go about doing kid stuff unsupervised in your community? If they were six years old? If they were 12 years old? What scrutiny and outrage would your community express if you did? Why?

Because it isn't safe? Because kids can't be trusted?

Get real

Two very overworked words in the Australian lexicon lately have been "racism", "culture". Both have been used in a manipulative fashion to pursue political correctness and to kill common sense. Time to put all that rot in the past where it belongs and take a look at an Australia where one people obey and respect one set of laws that have nothing to do with religion, dreamtime or 'multi culture' .
It has everything to do with being law abiding and being good Australian citizens.

Kroeber and Kluckhohn. That's going back a bit. Kerr cleverly segments divides culture into (a)ideology, (b)society and (c) technology. Ideology is very hard to change, technologies are readily transferred between societies, and, societies will change in the medium term. It seems the aboriginal clans have adopted a ideological-like response to a societal circumstance. The Britons adjusted to the Vikings and Romans. The Chinese to the Mongols and Manchus etc.

It is questionable that aborignal culture is 40-60 thousand years old. There was a big up-swing in artworks about three thousand years ago. Moreover, recently, DNA testing suggests that there are 4-5 "separate"meta-groups of aboriginal Australians, arriving between 60,000 to 15,000 years ago. The clans travelled along the "wider" beaches of South East Asia, when sea levels were lower. So,3-4 aboriginal meta-groups are not "orginal", but late-comers like the Europeans. Of course, all this doen't help with reconciliation

Aussie - Race and Culture.

There are many "races" throughout the world. Sometimes, they extend over the borders of Countries, yet each is still a race, of which the people of that race have a right to be proud.
For Countries, each will over time, develop a unique "culture", yet the population will quite likely be a mix of races, or descendants of mixed races.
Where Countries are divided by trying to sustain more than one "Culture", then there is the prospect of unrest and all that can come from that.
Australia in 2006 consists of people and descendants from many races. That is the way it is.
Each person can and ought to be proud of their own race and 'old' culture (if I may put it that way). That is their Ancestory and history.
For the good of all Australians, and to go forward, Australia now needs to work hard to further develop it's own Culture, with elements drawn from each race and inherited remnants of cultures from all over the world.
Let us go forward, the rest of our lives start today. Cheers all.

Leigh says: "If some people are left out of the mainstream because of 'culture' or having a different outlook, that's their problem. They all have the opportunity to do something about it if they wish to."

Leigh you say "that's their probem" so the "problem" is that of exclusion from the mainstream if you are different. Thanks for admitting the truth about your ideal society. A society that for you must see itself as culturally superior as a whole and bans or makes it difficult for outsiders to be accepted - even the Indigenous peoples whose lands are occuppied.

Welcome to white-middle and upper-class conservative, updemselves-snobbery. Goodbye egaltarianism and a fair go.

Of course, the irony here is that the Indigenous are the only sovereign Austalians. The mythical mainstream are mostly the illegal immigrants. Until Australians work something out with the various Indigenous peoples, the rest of us adopt a culture that has as mores immorallity, unethical behaviour and live in country where every step we take is trespass. A further injusticeis that Indigenous folk are the least powerful in their own country. A bit like the Russian peasants after the revolution.

Try and look at it from an objective human view. Drop all your ideology and learning and pretend you are from elsewhere-where "thou shalt not steal" is taken as an absolute. No ifs or buts, just that is the law and that is that - no rationalisng, no racism, no unconcsious motives, no propaganda, no party political positions - just straight up honesty. That is the truth of the matter.

Welcome to Hauptrichtung uber wir alles klein Volk in Australia.

Please note that I speak as a white Australian supposed lefty dogooder. I know its not trendy but hey someones gotta do it.

I have no mandate to speak for Indigenous people and my posts are my opinion.

Gotta go - sprint cars are on TV. Sorry if post messy. Gotta go. Bye.

Funny that with all this talk about culture no-one has mentioned art. The indigenous arts industry now turns over $200 million per year. Modern indigenous art started in Papunya, a fly-blown dump in the Western Desert. This desert art probably repesents the most significant art movement in Australia in the last century, rivalled only by the 1940s moderns such as Drysdale/Tucker/Nolan/Boyd or the Heidelberg School. Papunya was also the birthplace of the Warumpi Band. I'd suggest that those of you who are so happy to denegrate Aboriginal culture really need to open your eyes.

Indigenous health is shockingly bad, a national disgrace in my opinion, with alcoholism, substance abuse, high rates of infant and maternal mortality, diabetes and heart disease. But things as basic as town swimming pools http://www.mydr.com.au/default.asp?article=4062 have been shown to make a big difference to health. Clean drinking water and proper sanitation for all remote communities would be a decent start. I think we need a bit less hand-wringing and judgementalism. Who cares if Aboriginal culture IS or IS NOT the "oldest living culture"? It is a comforting myth, just like the myth of Gallipoli.

Part One

The WA district of Dalwallinu formerly a mixture of farming, as well as pastoral and mining leases as it ran further east, had experience of original native tribespeople similar to other wheatbelt districts adjoining the climate line where rainfall is too light to practice agriculture.

But as one who has spent most of his life in such a district as a wheat and sheep farmer, employing shearers, including halfcastes whose runs included both farm and station, could claim that he has had a bit to do with aborigines, especially as Paynes Find, 75 miles east of wubin and before around 1955 and still in the Dalwallinu district, habitated a mixture of both Yamadgee to the north and Wongi to the east moving towards Kalgoorlie.

The change in citizen status for Australian aborigines which came about in the early 1970s was sorely needed to prove Australia as a true democracy at least. But previously as the natives on stations were mainly working for their tucker, besides buildings to camp in, and handouts according to what the staion-owner or farmer believed how much they were contributing to the business.

But when award wages came in for natives, the hiring of Aborigines became less popular, as was the mental attitude of the natives themselves. The result has been in pastoral country, for the more educated natives and their sympathetic white backers, mostly left wing Labor, and certain more egalitarian conservatives, to take over pastoral leases and run them as a business.

But most have pretty well proven failures, because most Aborigines similar to some white people are not capable of running a business, yet can still be reasonable workers under what has to be unfortunately, a white boss.

Part Two

Nevertheless, it has been proven in our district that our coloureds can have beautiful minds. It can be so interesting to take time watching them draw figures and diagrams in the sand chattering away, laughing all the time, better than us whites. Furthermore, many of them have a natural artistic sense better than whites schooled in universities.

There was a very enlightening feature in our newspaper The West Australian in the WeekEnd Extra on this February 26th, of which all of our opinion group ahould get a copy of, as well as Dr Morton.

We can here begin talking about the Moore River Native Settlement, north of Perth in the 1930s, in which Dr Stanton, head of the Berndt Museum in WA, discovered how a British philanthropist, Florence Rutter had found in her travels some absolutlely astounding Aboriginal art stowed away at the wheatbelt town of Katanning.

Indeed, it is so astounding that the art was produced not by one young aboriginal but by a number, the whole lot virtually just disposed of when the Moore River Settlement closed down.

Too much I and my wife have heard the term, oh don’t worry about our blacks they are no bloody good, the quicker they die out the better. Very sadly, it seems Dr Morton believes the same - the very same these days said about Muslims by Americans and Australians in high places. Shouldn’t us whites know better after thousands of years of reasoning, or have we just got worse?

PS. Copies of the above Aboriginal art are available from The West Australian newspaper, Perth - WA

We have removed the survival component from a culture that once thrived on the challenge that most of us could never endure.

To remove the reason for one's existence is the cruelest cut.Just to be paid for existing,is like being in gaol,there is no reason to learn or evolve.

Yeah, and here's another cruel cut...taking away vital services like public health so that those who can't afford it, die. Just the way you cruel people of The Right would so love to see it.

Not really related to the topic I know. But I couldn't resist with Arjay's one-sided comment. Especially after Bushbred, once again, made a comment that couldn't be argued by the selfish, it-doesn't-affect-me members of the Far-Right.

Jinx ,you missed the point entirely,I'm not espousing the removal of social security,but rather paying Aborigines money only if they take responsibility for their own survival,yes ,with strings attached.Just as it should be with the rest of our social security recipients who mostly take the money with no intention of giving back to society from which they have taken.

You,like most assume that Social Security is an inherant right,rather than wanting to give back to the the hard workers who keep you in this present state if hypocritical indignation.

With so many experts in Aboriginal affairs one would expect our problems to be non-existent. Go figure?

Here’s an interesting paradox:
When a group are disadvantaged by a system they tend to hide or renounce their identity.(Thus Jews in many parts of the world, at different times, have had to hide their identity or convert).

And we are told that the plight of Aborigines is substandard to atrocious -the system is stacked against them –they are discriminated against in all facets of life - etc.

Yet in present day Australia we have had people who are full blooded SriLankans & Indians etc, trying to pass themselves off as Aborigines.-
We have people with only a small percentage of Aboriginal blood identifying themselves as Aborigines.
(For example someone who is ¾ Non-Aboriginal & ¼ Aboriginal –OR MUCH LESS - will register as Aboriginal)

Are they masochistic ?
Or is there some method to this “madness” ?

ARJAY.... well said mate..

Quote.

"We have removed the survival component from a culture that once thrived on the challenge that most of us could never endure.

To remove the reason for one's existence is the cruelest cut.Just to be paid for existing,is like being in gaol,there is no reason to learn or evolve. "

At last someone with white eyes is seeing things in black. You are probably the CLOSEST to the real nub of the problem, (as opposed to its symptoms) than just about any other poster mate.

Johnj.. u went on about health, drinking water, etc etc.. Arjay refers to the fact that these things were never a problem to the true traditional Aboriginal. They would have derived their self esteem FROM the knowledge which gave them all these things.

Take them away... take away the need to RELY on that knowledge, and you attack the very soul of a person. No amount of 'public health' initiatives or better housing will EVER solve that problem.

This is why I say that the happiest Aboriginals I know, are Christian ones. They have found in Christ, the One who meets them at their deepest point of need. Self worth and renewal, direction, meaning, a place in the sun. (this applies to all of us)

Aboriginals who are not Christian and not Traditional, are in psychological and cultural limbo.. nowheresville.

He's a real nowhere Man,
Sitting in his Nowhere Land,
Making all his nowhere plans
for nobody.

Doesn't have a point of view,
Knows not where he's going to,
Isn't he a bit like you and me?
Nowhere Man, please listen,
You don't know what you're missing,

(Thanx to John Lennon).

'I came that they might have life, and have it abundantly'....Jesus

ARJAY.... well said mate..

Quote.

"We have removed the survival component from a culture that once thrived on the challenge that most of us could never endure.

Yes, But our wonderfully myopic Arjay would not support the repatriation of stolen lands and wages that created this dependancy now would he.

Boaz, well that makes about a half dozen happy Aborigines you know. Hardly evidence of Christian sucess. FACT: Your Christianising and Civlising approach created much heart ache. Your fundamentalist zealotry aside, you really need to become more informed about our history and less focused on what you think our history was.

Are we going back to the "noble warrior" myth again? Can you prove that blacks were happier, healthier, more ordered in their natural nomadic life?
Or was it just the strongest [males] who had the best of it?
On television a while ago , an early documentary of the discovery of the desert people showed people who were literally starving when they were found, I have never seen such thin bodies since the war ended and our troops were liberated from Jap POW camps.They looked like stick people.
No human should have to live like that, but many inland tribes would have had it hard. Nothing noble about being perpetually hungry.

Ranier... you as a would be scholar should KNOW much better than to group ALL 'Missionaries/Churches' into a statement like "your Christianizing and civilizing" as if its some kind of monolithic experience.

Even saying "our history" (in reference to Aboriginals)is not valid I feel,its as diverse as there are tribes and the varying encounter types they had with the whites.

I don't think Arjay would have the feelings you expressed....about unpaid wages... I sure don't, I wholeheartedly support the idea of paying with interest to the descendants what is owed.

Your problem (dare I say it) is that you think you have a mortgage on your own situation to the point where even when someone supports many of your contentions, or is supportive of Indigenous rights (as far as can be accomodated within the framework of the country) you bite them on the bum as if they are some kind of intruder....

I don't know that many Indigenous Christians, but I do know some, and I know about others. Lets remember something, they are not in some kind of cultural or racial prison, they are free thinking individuals and if they decide to give their lives to Christ, its their business alone.

As Fox News is always saying "We report/ you decide" so it is for us, we proclaim/you decide. As it was for those crucified with Jesus, one cursed him, the other requested a place in paradise, and realized his own sin. It will always be that way while we have freedom of choice. When the Titanic went down, there were only 2 kinds of passengers. The saved, and the Lost.

I hope the Holy Spirit breaks down those barriers in your own heart, because only when you know the Lord who is proclaimed to you, will you truly know life and exchange the bitterness which comes through so much of your posts, with a peace and a joy from above.
It is beyond race and culture, and certainly is NOT 'White mans' thing.

Mickjo" The noble savage myth?"There are no absolute truths to the quality of life many of the aborigines had pre-1788.I suspect those who lived on the coast with fishing skills had a pretty good living,while those in a desert environment had to work a whole lot harder.They definitely did a whole lot better than the petrol sniffers and child rapists of todays dysfunctional society.

They were however made to feel inferior by an more economically advanced society,and there is the rub also for many in our own society today,who feel less valued because of their job description.

Aborigines don't have the monopoly on being oppressed on this planet.Pre-European invasion/settlement Aborigines were also involved with surival and inter-tribal conflicts.It was never a bed of roses for the settlers or the Aborigines.It was survival of the fittest.The life of a nomad would have always been about survival; and without specialisation/farming,very little time to learn.

Too often in contempoary society we aspire to the non productive Hollywood glitz of image without substance,and don't value those who do the ordinary jobs that make our society function,hence we tend to have this social unrest because indivuals are defined by their job rather than who they are as responsible citizens.

Just the simple courtesy of showing respect and manners to all in which we come in contact with,will make Australia a better place to live in,since humans do crave respect from their peers and falsely see money alone,as the avenue for this goal.

Money buys us time to do the things we crave,but in the world of real achievement,it will never buy us respect.

Anyone,no matter what their race will never be happy with just a pile of money,since in the long run we are social beings who want to connect with honest achievement.

To rancitas:

I won’t bother dissecting in detail the pretentious claptrap you’ve written, but can you satisfy my curiosity on one point? When you wrote“There are many aspects of indigenous culture that are valuable and valued by Australians”, I expected some examples of these “valuable and valued aspects” to follow, but none did. And try as I might, I can’t think of any. Would you like to enlighten us all by giving us a brief list of these admirable aspects of indigenous culture, please?

To bushbred. Thankyou for your interesting post.Your knowledge is humbling and I do hope people take the time to read it.
Speaking of history I would like you to take a look at this please. www.halakindmeats,com.

We would be most interested to contact you regarding a proposal for Minister Mal broth regarding aboriginal people.
Considering its based around sheep and cattle farms in regional areas we hope you might be interested to hear us out about this project.

Dont worry about the negative replies from some of them your posts is one of rare personal hands on knowledge.

Did you ever know any share farmers who were aboriginal?

Again thankyou bushbred.

It is ludicrous to suggest that Australian aboriginal culture is of any value to present day Australia, or that we can learn anything useful from that culture.

Australian aboriginal culture was stone-age, hunter-gatherer - living from one feed to the next when white settlers arrived. For people of aboriginal descent who have not assimilated with the wider population, it is now a culture of handouts and primitive, childish stories.

Unless white, Western culture stops wacking on about such nonsense and looking to it's own future, our culture will go the same way. The rot has already started, with the continued importing of alien cultures and foreign workers to cut our standards of living. At least the original inhabitants can be excused for not being able to keep us out. We, on the other had, are wiping ourselves out! Or, rather we are allowing our politicians to wipe us out.

Unlike indigenous Australians, we can still save ourselves. But it seems that the majority of white Australians have become too complacent and dopy to realise what is happening, preferring to listen to media rubbish about less that 4% or the population, what's happening to the white man's burden overseas and pandering to people who refuse to do anything for themsleves and to those who have plonked themselves on us

Zorro.
First I am not your little black fella dog. Do your own research. Nay that would be a waste of time. Zoro that halo of your’s would blind you to the good in Indigenous culture.

What is good about Indigenous culture?

Their spiritual connection and the Dreamtime stories are obvious.

One aspect that is truly remarkable is the diversity of language - not merely just dialects but distinct languages. Pre-invasion many Indigenous folk were fluent in three or four languages. For instance: a Yolngu from Arnhem land will not understand a Pitjantjatjara from Western Desert . I know you think: ”So savages just grunting monosyllables.” Linguists say that Aboriginal languages are as grammatically rich and syntactically rich as European languages.

Pre invasion there is estimated there was about 750.000 Indigenous, Now there are around 200,000.
There was 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages. Now I have no figures but at least 50 are extinct and hundreds more wrecked or struggling.

Below is a sample of Indigenous peoples’ language.

Altaic branch Tungusic, Evenki Manchu, Sibo, Nanai.
Basque branch
Australian Aboriginal branch:

Western central branch : Gariera, Dalaindji, Ingada, Nanda, Amangu, Yued, Wadjug, Wudjari.

Western Desert branch: Mangala, Womeri, Gerradjari, Nyamai, Bigong, Wanggada, Pitjanjatjara, Gugada, Wanayaga, Walbiri, Ngadi, Ngadi, Mudbura.

Northern: Njul, Bad, Alawa, Yauor, Djaud, Nyigina, Bunaba, Wunambai, Worana, Ungarinyin, Guluwarin, Gunian, Bagu, Gwini, Malag –malag, Worgaidi, Laragia, Margu, Marung.

Eastern North: Wikmunkan, Gandju, Koko-Yimidir, Yungurara, Boluwai, Gia, Gudjali, Iba, Kalkadoon, Pittapitta, Goa, Mujuli.

Eastern South: Danggali, Gandangara,Wirdjuri,Katiang,Danggadi,Wongaibon,Kamilori,Banbai, Bandjalong,Kabi,Wanggumarra,Barundji,Gunu,Gogai,Turrubul,Dippil.

Aranda branch: Antegarinya,Yangundjadjara,Gaidiji.

South-eastern: Durawal, Durga,Djadjall,Djedjuwuru,Wadjawuru,Wurundjeri,

Tasmania: Southern, Northern (can’t find Indigenous names maybe because all killed off).

What a significant and truly amazing cultural heritage that, although degraded, must be preserved. This will contribute to making our counry one with more spirit and soul - rather than a monocultural 1984 style place

ZORRO continued.
The invaders culture:
The racist invaders blinded by their Christian halo and their real culture of RUM, SODOMY, IGNORANCE , HYPOCRISY and the LASH stupidly and illegally destroyed and degraded these peoples’ lives and culture.

The invaders didn’t just steal their land and the colonisers didn’t just steal their children and murder their people they destroyed whole communites and degraded the cultural heritage. And still the radicals like Zorro, Leigh can’t see the problem.

What I like about modern urban Indigenous cultures? Recently they held a Sorry Day memorial in a park near us. An Indigenous speaker, whose Mum was taken away at age five, said: “ Nine kids were forcibly removed, my grandmother was shot dead while trying to save the kids and mum limped all her life after being shot in the top of the right leg.
“They are were sent to different places throughout the state and were not allowed
to be reunited.
“My aunty was about 26 when she was eventually reunited with one of her sisters.”

The way Indigenous deal with these tragedies is truly noble. They have truly noble cultural influence to do that. We need these positve influence in our society more than ever.

What else is good? Their art, their music - they sings songs of justice that suggest to me a culture that has a developed sense of justice - unlike our country’s rulers and Leigh and Zorro.

Archie Roach, Kev Carmody,Jimmy Little, Warumpi Band comes to mind. I like the way Indigenous culture has influenced our art and music. Paul Kelly and even punk rockers Frenzal Rhomb and punk rappers The Herd. I like Rainer’s posts. They contrinute to making this country a more cultural divrse and meaningful place.

Zorro take good look at Indigenous culture – it’s good.

PEACE AND LOVE – Nah gotta be a fair dinkum macho mainstream Aussie – ALCOHOL, DRUGS, HEADKICKING, BLACKBASHING,WIFEBASHING,KIDFIDDLING,HYPOCRITICAL, PORNOCONSUMING,MONEYGRUBBIING,LANDWRECKERS,WARMONGERING, IMMORAL SELLOUTS. Yeah you stereotype - you throw stones at other cultures. Not in Australia's name.

If white people inflicted pain on young boys by cruel and unhygenic "Initiation Ceremonies" the way Aborigines incredibly are still allowed to do, the perpetrators would be jailed. Some "Culture!"

If women and children were raped and burnt in a white community the way they are being treated so cruelly in Aboriginal communities, the children would be removed from danger and no beg-pardons. That this is not being done because of the myth of the so called "Stolen Generation" is a measure of political weakness.

Over the past few years , a lot of Myths appear to have become facts.
The 'noble warrior' is now known for the myth it is.
'World's oldest people' ,I would say bunkum! to that. The aboriginal may have been one of the most isolated but that would be all. If that was correct ,where did the rest of us come from. A cabbage patch?
That Aboriginals have been left to rot in a primitive state is an indictment on all Australian governments. In over two hundred years ,they are no more advanced than they were in the beginning, they have been robbed of the chance of being equal in education and employment.
I wish we could have more emphasis on what they could achieve given half a chance. The people who should say 'sorry' are the activists, politicians and academics who have held the aboriginals back.

Dr Morton

Thank you for your article. Indeed thought provoking.

Rancitas: thank you for your posts. Have you ever been to Jack Beetson's Linga Longa Philosophy Farm?

Cheers
Kay

To Wendy Lewthwaite.

Thanks for the compliment, Wendy, especially concerning historical knowledge, but it is not much good acquiring historical knowledge without gaining the insight that such study should give. Have been fortunate to gain Honours in International Relations in retirement, the study changing one from a boring back-country smart-arse to become humbled enough to have been called a bleeding heart.

One thing we must not forget, Wendy, is that the Aborigines are a conquered people who have no way of fighting back. You only have to look into their eyes to read their minds. They are beaten, and will often try all the tricks they know to put it over you, as it is their natural way. Yet it still pays to treat them kindly, and never cruelly, because they hurt very easily and always will.

In some ways, we also owe it to them, Wendy, for after all one could agree with them when they have the courage to say, well, you took our country

To Bush Bred

Your knowledge and expereince is greatly required. I wish I had you available with me today as we meet with a large group from china with regional interests regarding aboriginal and lease hold farming including cojointly owned or leased farms and abattoirs such as fish farming vegie and cosmetic products for export.

What was it they said> Give me the child between the ages of one to seven and i will give you the man.

Bush Bred we are putting a proposal together for Mal Broth and The Minister of education along with the Minister for Agriculture and Minister of trade.
I also have a great interest in re opening abattoirs and introducing roo ranches for aboriginal people and farmers to be paid for the roos on their land by contacting us to engage profeshional shooters .

The project is to improve animal welfare and give aboriginal people the tools to own their own destinys with a partner to help with the managment side for their export products such as meat vegetables fish and non animal tested cosmetics.

I see you are or were a sheep farmer as well and you may not agree with me regarding live exports but i would also be honoured if you would email me. www.livexports.com

People with some real knowledge are hard to find and again I thankyou and would vaule your thoughts.

Take that as a offer of involement should you be interested.

www.halakindmeats.com

'What a significant and truly amazing cultural heritage that, although degraded, must be preserved. This will contribute to making our country one with more spirit and soul - rather than a monocultural 1984 style place'

Rancitas,
I think we need to stop talking about Aboriginal “culture”- singular.
As you have pointed out with different languages, and other have pointed out with different waves of immigration. It would probably be more correct to talk in terms of Aboriginal cultures –plural.
If they had left to their own devices they probably would have developed in to nations as distinctive and antagonistic as those of Europe.
The idea of one peaceful monolithic Aboriginal nation is a construct of leftist “intellectuals” who have sought to remake/repackage them according to own agenda and prejudices.

,-And as an aside-ironically, it has been issues like the Aboriginal cause which have taken us close to a 1984 style society:
First we were told that to discriminate against anyone on the basis of race was bad-and all laws, job advertisements etc had to be adjusted accordingly. Most Australians being fair minded accepted this. Then the very same groups told us we must now give some races/groups special benefits. Which they termed “positive discrimination”. (An example of doublethink & newspeak at its best)

More recently we have had the related concepts of “racial vilification” & ‘harassment’ which have been used to control expression.
All designed to make us a more caring and tolerant society- I guess as they say, the pathway to hell is paved with good intensions.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA20010329010
For dial up-folk:
“In January this year the United Nations named Aboriginal teacher Jack Beetson an Unsung Hero of Dialogue. ... The United Nations has identified what it refers to as "examples of human courage—the unsung heroes of dialogue who have faced adversity and looked beyond cultural, social, economic and racial issues to find a solution". Only 12 people in the world have been recognised as unsung heroes of dialogue.
….
The United Nations Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, has said:
I see … dialogue as a chance for people of different cultures and traditions to get to know each other better, whether they live on opposite sides of the world or on the same street. What Jack Beetson has done and continues to do is incredible.
…
His achievements include establishing the philosophy farm Linga Longa. …The Linga Longa Aboriginal Philosophy Farm was established by Jack and Shani Beetson in December 1996. ....

It is a 40-hectare property in Birpai country and is open to all people all year round. Jack and Shani invite people to visit for a few hours, a day, or overnight. Linga Longa is a venue for school and cultural awareness camps catering for all ages of the life cycle. Bush tucker walks, bush medicine walks, art workshops and storytelling are among the activities offered at Linga Longa.

Jack's philosophy on life is:
Life is about human rights and education, and education is a critical component for people to access these rights. The right of self-determination is also important, as a part of education. The other thing I see as important through my life are street kids. Basically what I want to do is to give street kids the opportunity that others gave me and the patience that others offered me.”
END

Kalweb - Rancid here. Mr Beetson and I would probably be pulling different strokes on most things but we have many other things in common. Just like the Indigenous folk who have had a mostly traditional background and others. Answer to your question: NO.

Horus: Your post is evidently trying to remake and repackage my ideas according to your own agenda and prejudices.

You say: "It would probably be more correct to talk in terms of Aboriginal cultures –plural."

I clearly said: "There was 500 DISTINCT groups using 200 distinct languages. Now I have no figures but at least 50 are extinct and hundreds more wrecked or struggling."

I mostly use the plural adjective peoples' or the noun peoples when referring to Indigenous peoples'. Both plural. Note the word DIVERSITY in my posts as well. "Peoples" refer to the groups like the ones named.

"Five hundred DISTINCT groups..." should equate to many different cultural differences. In today's context there is also the offshoots of colonisation - like the urban Indigenousculture.

You say: "If they had left to their own devices they probably would have developed in to nations as distinctive and antagonistic as those of Europe."

Indigenous people have been around for yonks and seemed to be able to sort out their differences without total war. Indeed, the way that the remaining various peoples' have united to fight for justice is a positve example of different cultures maintaining their own cultures whilst sharing an ideal.

Horus says: "The idea of one peaceful monolithic Aboriginal nation is a construct of leftist “intellectuals” who have sought to remake/repackage them according to own agenda and prejudices."

That was your construct - not mine. Re read.

It was the European invasion and the atrocities against them that united the Aboriginal peoples. Not politics. Indigenous peoples' had no choice but to engage the Europeans in their construct.

You say: "And as an aside-ironically, it has been issues like the Aboriginal cause which have taken us close to a 1984 style society."

Rancitas said: "What a significant and truly amazing cultural heritage that, although degraded, must be preserved. This will contribute to making our country one with more spirit and soul - rather than a monocultural 1984 style place."

Horus: See the word "RATHER". That means not like.

It is right-wing propaganda that pushes hardest for a monoculture.

Please rethink.

One needs to take responsibility to ones self to educate themselves on an area before making assessment on it, and this applies to something so foreign to our nature and way of life like the aboringinal way of life and values. I for one will keep my mouth shut as I do not have enough understanding to make any justified comments but say this;

Having worked in Alice Springs as a doctor and flew with the Flying Doctors into remote aboringinal communities, the first thing that strikes you is that they have little value for consumerism.. they literally possess little more than their clothes on their backs and have no need for all things we strive to have.

Secondly, they cannot bear being in a confined space like a house, and which we take for granted. The houses built for them by the government were neglected and they slept outside. Having done the same in the desert, in a swag though, I totally understand this one. Nothing more beautiful than the desert night sky. Put them in a prison and they have a high rate of suicide.

Thirdly, their connection to the land is truly a amazing attribute and admired. They see themselves as part of the land, remove them from it and you take their will to live with it. Its almost a spiritual connection that we struggle to understand but so natural and child like to them. And most importantly they wear their emotions on their sleeves and the pain in their eyes are so easy to see, they cant seem to hide it or suppress it like we can.

I understand the governments struggle to find the right approach with them and we should as they are truly becoming extinct..taking with them something we could learn so much from.

Sam

Rancitas,
While you may have used the plural when talking of Aboriginal culture/people.The general practice is to use the singular, & my comment related to that practice.

Any early unity & resistance of the Aboriginal people(s) -where it existed- was localized & centered on tribal identity. The “unity’ that we have today did not come about as a result of any spontaneous, internal force(s) but was nurtured & fabricated by leftist ' intellectuals' .

White “atrocities’ was just one of many divisive, poisonous slanders employed by the left to justify their stand, & was closely followed by ‘Land rights’ ‘Aboriginal deaths in custody’ ‘The stolen generation’ .

In promoting the concept of an Aboriginal nation the leftists have selected those traits/practices from the dominant Aboriginal groups & elevated them as representative of all Aborigines. Thus helping to sideline or extinguish lesser Aboriginal cultures. (The very thing they accuse their opponents of).

You paint a very rosy picture of the Aboriginals:
“Indigenous people …seemed to be able to sort out their differences without total war”'
Though I note you left yourself an out by using the qualifier 'total'.
We know that the 'indigenous people' of North America waged merciless & large-scale war against each other. As did the 'indigenous people' of the Pacific (esp. in New Zealand & Hawaii). As did the 'indigenous peoples' of Africa. And I suggest the same is true of the Aborigines. Though their generally lower population density may have assuaged the intensity somewhat & their limited record keeping has assuaged our knowledge of it.

You missed my point about 1984. My contention was that the policies introduced to ‘better’ Aboriginal conditions have 1984 characteristics. Newspeak & doublethink i.e. 'discrimination is bad' –but 'positive discrimination is good'.

how pathetic that australians are incapable of understanding that aboriginal people, much like any other mult-cultural people, live a two-world perspective that encompasses the broader/general societal values as well as their own cultural values.

and how pathetic that australians are generally more capable of accepting this two-world perspective when it comes to other immigrants like themselves but not for aboriginal people whose connection to this land does not need repeating by me.

and finally bushbred, you bring to mind an old whitefella who attended an aboriginal community meeting and got up to speak about aboriginal issues and started it off by saying i worked with these abos in ..... patronising old fool.

I started to read these posts with optimism, but that soon soured.

I am not interested in 'ownership' of the land - it seems silly to even consider who (or what?) was 'first'.

The 'aboriginal problem' as I see it is simply that there is a very easily identifiable group of people who do not have anything remotely like equal access to the opportunities available to most Australians. And even then, it isn't necessarily a problem - it only becomes a problem if members of the group want access to those opportunities.

I don't want to mandate how any other Australian, of whatever colour or creed, should live. I do want to ensure that, when other Australians interact with me, we do so within a common set of 'laws' (whether they be written or unwritten). And I do want all of us to have equitable access to the benefits of our broad society.

Just how we do that perplexes me, but I would like to work with others to try to improve the situation.

Boaz' latest pious effort / surmon to me proclaimed: "Your problem (dare I say it) is that you think you have a mortgage on your own situation to the point where even when someone supports many of your contentions, or is supportive of Indigenous rights (as far as can be accomodated within the framework of the country) you bite them on the bum as if they are some kind of intruder...."

*I have hundreds of non-Indigenous friends and supporters of Indigenous Rights. That I retain the right not to include someone like yourself is very understandable to them and inherently logical me.

It goes without saying that having people with nothing to do but sit around and drink themselves silly is a recipe for disaster for them and their entire communities.

Clearly [as a previous writer has suggested] they need some form of useful employment, alongside proper education opportunities for the children, and adequate health services.

Easy to say, and would they accept the jobs if they were available? Things can't be allowed to stay as they are, and deteriorate further. I once heard a speaker at a conference back in the 70's say that the Aboriginal people must either join the 20th Century or go back to a nomadic existence.

I think the former is the only practical way. It's impossible to" unscramble an egg". For the sake of the unfortunate women and children especially, let's hope that the Governments will realise that something other than just throwing money at the problem needs to be done.

I'm sure anybody especially the desert peoples were probably happy with their self governed societies before the invasion of their "superior" conquerors. and you said that they showed on television that they were sooooo skinny? maybe. but then again can you honestly sit here and tell me that they would show a happy culture that got taken over? there is this thing called propaganda, (i think i learned about it in 7th grade)that shows one side of a 2 sided story. Whether it b vietnam or korea the government showed propaganda that we were winning the war. we now know better. Now for all intents and purposes maybe a couple civilizations have been bettered off because of their fellow conquerors. For the other 99.97465% of conquered peoples and lands thats not the case.

THA
I hate to bring this up because it is something which not talked about in polite & fashionable circles. But there is some evidence emerging that maybe the Aborigines were not the first settlers in Australia.

The various peoples of the world have been moving around the world for tens of millennia.It would a safe bet that all peoples, at some stage in their migrations, have displaced other peoples.We all have blood on our hands, and we are ALL migrants -including the Aborigines -it’s just a difference of how long.

To establish a caste system based on the length of ones residency in Australia is highly divisive.

Horus says:

“Rancitas,
’While you may have used the plural when talking of Aboriginal culture/people.The general practice is to use the singular, & my comment related to that practice. ‘ “

Horus no you are being silly and dishonest now. You first said:” Rancitas,
I think we need to stop talking about Aboriginal “culture”- singular. “ That is addressed to Rancitas and “we” inclusive. It’s misleading.

Horus says:

“Any early unity & resistance of the Aboriginal people(s) -where it existed- was localized & centred on tribal identity. The “unity’ that we have today did not come about as a result of any spontaneous, internal force(s) but was nurtured & fabricated by leftist ' intellectuals' “.

I Rancitas says: “So what. Why are you trying to politicise this? I am not involved with any political organisation. Are you? My interest is more in the social and cultural aspects. Nevertheless, kudos to “leftist intellectuals’ for helping Indigenous folk negotiate the white-fella power structure. The lefts’s sense of justice is admirable.

Horus says:

“White’“atrocities’ was just one of many divisive, poisonous slanders employed by the left to justify their stand, & was closely followed by ‘Land rights’ ‘Aboriginal deaths in custody’ ‘The stolen generation’ “.

The atrocities against indigenous folk are historical and documented. Your aversion to Indigenous history suggests racist thinking.

Rancitas repeats: that at a Sorry Day memorial in a park near us, an Indigenous speaker, whose Mum was taken away at age five, said: ‘ Nine kids were forcibly removed, my grandmother was shot dead while trying to save the kids and mum limped all her life after being shot in the top of the right leg.
’They are were sent to different places throughout the state and were not allowed
to be reunited.
’My aunty was about 26 when she was eventually reunited with one of her sisters.’”

Rancitas accepts this and the hundreds of other much more brutal accounts.

Don’t let Boltspeak con you. Boltspeak is parroting propaganda from decades ago. Bolt has no creativity so feeds off other’s (hence his resentment of artists . cont-

-ued.

Horus- says that the leftists selected the best traits and elevated them to represent the rest and that the left methodically and deliberately extinguished, according to you, Horus, the “lesser” Aboriginal cultures. Back it up. It ‘airy fairy racist rubbish. The Indigenous people have backed up their claims with evidence. You produce nothing but clearly racist and politically motived smut.

Rancitas says invaders and settlers extinguished Horus' "lesser"? Aboriginal cultures.” Horus equating living where the invaders settled is “lesser” is an illogical aversionist nonsense. European settlement brought those negative pressures to bear. The disintegration due to settlement, loss of land rights, introduced disease and vices, outright murder happened before then. Left politics only appeared early 20th century. Your aversion racist thinking blinds you that simple logic.

You say that I let myself an “out” by claiming that they sorted thing without "total war". No “out” but an honest statement. Horus goes offshore and compare tribal cultures that have little relevance. Indigenous culture was not “tribal” because its social organisation and relationship to territory was more flexible. There was no total war in Australia.

I didn’t miss your point. You were and have been proven to have distorted Rancitas’ view and mislead readers. I was arguing for that diversity to continue rather than fall into monoculture. Other posters can confirm position on multi-culturalism.

You also used that old a cliché. “The pathway to hell is paved with good intentions”. So you confess to bad intentions? That is a utilitarian idea which is double speak to undermine people’s confidence in themselves. The road to HEAVEN is paved with good intentions. I think good ends can only be achieved with good actions based on firm principles. Sometimes negative immediate outcomes will be discouraging but, if we refuse to undermine the ultimate good by holding to the proper Teachings, then,if things are finally done as they are in heaven, then this place will stay improve somewhat.

The Indigenous peoples' have had, and still have, 1984 style control and doublespeak forced on, and undermining, them. That is the problem. It must be addressed.

What an amazing piece of condescending misrepresentation of our status from "bushbred" (posts, Monday, 29 May 2006 7:21:05 PM)straight out of the annals of 19th century.

Quoted here for reference;

"One thing we must not forget, Wendy, is that the Aborigines are a conquered people who have no way of fighting back. You only have to look into their eyes to read their minds. They are beaten, and will often try all the tricks they know to put it over you, as it is their natural way. Yet it still pays to treat them kindly, and never cruelly, because they hurt very easily and always will.

In some ways, we also owe it to them, Wendy, for after all one could agree with them when they have the courage to say, well, you took our country."

Conquered people!!? Huh!! You wish! Have you ever taken the white sheet off your head to examine how we celebrate our achievements. Read the Koori Mail or National Indigenous Times to find reports on shining examples of how we have been ["fighting back"] quietly going about our business, reports that you will not find in abundance in mainstream media, this despite the adversity of resistence from fools like yourself who peddle rubbish.

"try all tricks", you say!!? Yes, I must admit, we are clever at articulating our inate ability to survive 200+ years of eurocentric policies, evidence enough i say. So bring it on! I am one waits for you and your spawn. Treat us kindly!!? Well, this would be nice for a change if there more of it instead of the paucity currently extended to us.

Rancitas
You use the word "racist" as if it is some mystic incantation guaranteed to drive off any demons who challenge your views.

One of the advantages of having limited historical records is you can fill the void with all sorts or 'airy-fairy' propositions:
-Aborigines did not have 'total war' (whatever that means!)
-They are not comparable to other indigenous cultures
-All vices and diseases were brought in by outsiders
And no one can "prove' you wrong.

As for the “atrocities’,in most cases the “atrocity” stories are the subject of few details & much dispute, dredging up such stories serves little worthwhile purpose in today’s Australia.
They do not “provide closure” as we are often told –all they do is perpetuate a circle of hate & blame.

Some Australians had relations massacred at Vinegar Hill & other at the Eureka Stockade,And many had relations massacred or enslaved by the Turks, British, French, Arabs or someone else, at some time, or other. But they do not live life with a black armband & expect everyone descended from the transgressors to recompense them.

As for the removal of children –many white Australian mothers also had children removed.White mothers could tell you many similar stories –if you were willing to listen.
And if your concerns about this are issue “principled’ & not just a debating ploy, you may need to look at the situation in many aboriginal communities at the moment, as it may lead a repeat.

Very little is to be achieved by us sitting around exchanging, or collecting, horror stories from our past

Horus (post 1 June 2006) where is the evidence to support your claims re: "many white Australian mothers also had children removed." Maybe you are right. But, there is no evidence of parallel experiences by white mothers and that of black mothers who had their children stolen from them by the authorities at the time, usually the police, at the behest of enthnocentric policy. I doubt if this is what happened to the white mothers if you are "willing to listen" and learn from the evidence.

Christopher Davis,
I know of one heroine addicted white mother who has had two children removed in the last 6 years because she also allowed her second baby to drown in the bath. It does happen even today; however we dare not remove indigenous children from drunken abusive parents because of past policies. Policies at the time we felt would help young aboriginal children learn to assimililate and be educated and live in a modern society.

In the 1960's a group of builders from Adelaide and a mate of mine from Melbourne and myself built a childrens home just north of Alice Springs, so that the children from the settlement could live with the care of house parents and nurses and still have their parents next door so as to stop these children being removed from the camp where drunkedness, violence and prostitution were rife in the settlement.

To Rancitas:Part One
Rancitas, judging by your use of trendy left-wing words like”invasion”, you are either a student, or even worse, an academic in some cloistered ivory tower, spouting your “noble savage” philosophy to the gullible and ignorant. The marvelous valuable and valued contributions of indigenous “culture” that you’ve come up with? Dreamtime stories? In our culture, we read fairy tales to children, who stop believing them when they grow up. Music? Punk rockers and rappers aren’t my idea of music. Painting? I’m afraid I’m a philistine when it comes to pop art. 200 languages for 500 tribes? I hope you cut and pasted your extensive list of native languages. I’d hate to think you typed them all in for my benefit. I couldn’t give a rat’s arse about this veritable Towel of Babel of primitive and useless languages in this modern age.

The part that I really found amusing was the following -“Linguists say that Aboriginal languages are as syntactically and grammatically rich as European languages”. You then continue on with - “Pre invasion there is estimated there was about 750,000 indigenous, Now there are around 200,000. There was 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.” It’s a shame that the syntax and grammar of the present day English language is beyond your intellectual capacity, judging by the gobbledegook sentences you’ve written. Indigenous what? Mushrooms?” An adjective in search of a noun! Was the estimation done pre-invasion? I doubt it. And let’s not overlook the correct tense of verbs, or their singular and plural forms, shall we? I take it you meant to say “It is estimated that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenes, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.” Go and write those two sentences out 500 times, so next time you’ll remember the richness of the English language.

To Rancitas: Part 2
Rancitas, I’ve never considered hair shirts to be a fashion item, and I strongly object to others trying to make me wear one. So have your “Sorry Days", throw off your clothes, daub yourself with paint and go and wander the country side butt naked with your much beloved noble savages that you so greatly admire for their soul and spirit.

Finally, I find it the height of hypocrisy that all you bleeding hearts who preach love and tolerance act like rabid dogs when it comes to savaging anyone who disagrees with your opinions. I can imagine you frothing at the mouth as you finished off your bile-ridden diatribe about mainstream Aussies in a fury of capital letter words. Go get your crayons and finish off your colouring-in books instead of posting drivel to this forum. Better still, get a life. You’re ravings clearly indicate that you’re a bloody idiot, Rancitas, and that is all the time I will waste on you.

I am re-reading John Morton's original article in the light of a story published in today's edition (June 2, 2006) of The Sydney Morning Herald - "Watercolour offers earliest glimpse of Sydney's original people" by Steve Meacham.

As Morton noted in his opening paragraph: "Ever since Europeans first came to Australia, public views of Aborigines have veered between two extremes. Aborigines have been promoted either as disgusting savages or as admired paragons, uncivilised riff-raff or as noble bearers of their culture - bad or good, but never ordinary."

In this context, Meacham's article and particularly the comments from Keith Vincent Smith continue in this vein - in this case the original inhabitants of the Sydney region (the Eora people) are portrayed as "noble bearers of culture".

Smith, who has a masters degree in Aboriginal studies, is quoted as saying that: "We know about the Aztecs, the Incas and the Phoenicians, but the Eora have never been given their due," Mr Smith says. "In fact, they had a highly developed culture."

However no evidence is given in the article of what constitutes the achievements of the 'highly developed' Eora culture, aside from the fact that they used a four-pronged fishing spear; that they built canoes from a single strip of paperbark, which were "easily repaired"; and that those who fished from the canoes had "mud-daubed hairstyles".

I have to ask myself, are these achievements extraordinary or merely very ordinary?

Comparing Eora culture to that of the Aztecs, the Incas or the Phoenicians is plainly ludicrous as well. When the Spanish Conquistadores arrived in Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital, in 1519, they were clearly very impressed by the beauty, order and cleanliness of this indigenous city which was one of the largest metropolises in the world at the time. Today, despite the depredations of the Spanish Conquest, some of the buildings of ancient Tenochtitlan still survive, while Mexico City's National Museum of Anthropology contains room after room of pre-conquest artefacts which easily outstrip anything that is on display from either Aboriginal or European culture in our own National Museum.

To Leigh,

Leigh, I couldn’t agree with you more. The basic problem is we don’t have a democracy, but a memocracy, which can be defined as “governance by the morally enlightened minority”.
These unelected left-wing “guardians” of the state comprising of lawyers and judges, civil libertarians, media editors and columnists, academics and teachers, the latte-sipping doctors’ wives social set, together with their willing puppets the politicians, have practiced their social engineering unhindered in this country. The abolishment of capital punishment, multiculturalism, reconciliation, native title and asylum seekers, just to mention a few of their disruptive accomplishments, were simply foisted on the public. And when these grandiose experiments invariably fail at great cost and misery to the general community, do they say ”Sorry”? Of course not! They simply move on to the latest trendy “issue du jour”, such as anti-war protests or gay marriage.

In the halcyon days of Bob Menzies, we could afford to be apathetic about politics. Regrettably, as we watch the dismantling of the Lucky Country, that is no longer the case.

Zorro wrote as "The basic problem is we don’t have a democracy, but a memocracy, which can be defined as “governance by the morally enlightened minority”."

Zorro, I think the first question you need to ask yourself is this; "Do you want to live in a society of ordinary decent people"

Sam

Philo (post Thursday, 1 June 2006 10:36:55 PM) what can i say, your response validates my position. You lack vision. Where is the evidence, hmmm? What you have offered is nothing short of empty headed pub talk in the guise of faux analysis. Again, all you have demonstrated is a typical response often presented by 'whitebread' Australia in reaction to a complex array of issues relating to Indigenous Australians. Your attempt to contrast the circumstances of a "white mother who has had two children removed in the last 6 years because she also allowed her second baby to drown in the bath" does not equal to the official policy of stealing of babies from black mothers which was nothing more than a legitimate attempt to breed out the Aboriginal race. In short, a softer version of "dispersals" aka killing fields on the frontier of colonies, a legitmised effort to "ethnic cleansing". Please do not insult my intellect any further with claims to the contrary anymore, to do so would reveal your own stupid thinking towards Indigenous Australians. It is a pity that you [from your comments] do not see it this way. Although, i will agree that what is happening in communities is totally unacceptable, but, instead of removing the children [and women], why not gaol the perpetrators, Australians [all of us] should take a hard line, zero tolerence to abuse, i do not suscribe to cultural protocals or some form of silent acknowlegdement that for cultural reasons the perpetrators have a "cultural right" to rape children [and women] and disguise this in legal interpretation that men in these circumstances have a so called "cutural" right to instigate abuse. No!! I will not accept this.

Christopher,

You are cetrainly insulting and over sensitive to my posting. What was happening in the 1950 - 60t's was not a Government attempt at genocide as you claim by your insulting remarks. The Government of the day was being advised by those working in indiginous affairs that the only way to change the lifestyle of the camp and walkabout of indiginous children was to remove them from this practise as infants so they learned to participate in the broarder culture. The fact is only those indiginous who have moved into the broarer society are sucessful and no longer a burden on taxpayers.

We have abandoned this practise only to see the sexual abuse of infants in the name of indiginous culture that in a brorder Australian society would be removed buy DOCS. Indiginous culture certainly has come a long way in 200 years. Like hell!

Quote, "Your attempt to contrast the circumstances of a "white mother who has had two children removed in the last 6 years because she also allowed her second baby to drown in the bath" does not equal to the official policy of stealing of babies from black mothers which was nothing more than a legitimate attempt to breed out the Aboriginal race. In short, a softer version of "dispersals" aka killing fields on the frontier of colonies, a legitmised effort to "ethnic cleansing". Please do not insult my intellect any further with claims to the contrary anymore, to do so would reveal your own stupid thinking towards Indigenous Australians."

Phil -I agree with you.

The main idea behind the removal of such children
was that the children would fare better in a foster environment.

A number of world cultures will shun children of mixed race.
But here was 'racist' white Australia accepting them into their hearth,as their own.

I remember how after the Vietnam war the west including Australia
opened their doors to thousands of mixed race children who were being rejected or sidelined by Vietnamese society-and I wonder when that will come back to bite us, under some guise or other.

…………………………………………………………………………

Christopher
1) It was also standard practice –during the same period - that teen girls ( of what ever race) who had children out of wedlock would have their children removed by the state. I have seen/read interviews with many of these woman who had no choice in the matter and now mourn for the children they lost.

2) There’s an interesting little story here about (white ) British children being ‘stolen’. should you care to read it:
www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s149291.htm

Philo/Horus, check this out, only one source, yes, but there are others....http://www.erc.org.au/issues/text/mr00.htm... anyway, i have enjoy our brief exchange, it has been interesting, and I am sure there will be other fronts on which we will do this all over again, bye for now.

This discussion is all the more relevant now. If you haven't already read this article- what do you think? Shameful, I'd say!

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/stop-aboriginal-culture-lessons-report/2006/05/29/1148754937878.html

To Sam said:

As I'm not in the habit of talking to myself, I won't bother asking myself the "first question", as you suggest Sam. If you want to make a point, please do so in plain language.

To Celivia:

Yes, it is shameful indeed, but not in the sense you intended, I suspect. Shameful that we are continually fed more of this drivel for the sanctity of "indigenous culture", which is an oxymoron if there ever was one.

Racism has been brought into this argument several times. I think one of the most batant instances is the so called "Aboriginal Flag".

It purports to represent one race of people, so it is a racist symbol. Aborigines are Australian citizens. No section of Australians should have their own flag. They are represented by the Australian Flag just as all other sections of the community are.

Some militant Aborigines have attempted to form their own "Provisional Government" and issue their own Passports. No doubt they would expect the rest of us to pay for all this. Then we had the rubbish of the so called "sacred fire" in Melbourne's Domain Gardens, and now we have a special
service at the Shrine to commemorate Aboriginal servicemen. This is surely Apartheid of a kind, meaning "separate development" We fought South Africa's Apartheid, now miitant Aborigines are trying to bring it to Australia.
Knock it on the head now, starting with that flag.

You're right Big Al 30,when Aboriginals stop using their indigineous status as a crutch,they will be far more respected by the rest of society.My hereditary gives me no claim or special status in my indigeneous UK or Australia and to do so implies that I'm in some way inferior.In reality no one owns any land or item,we are all really caretakers for the next generation.

Aborigines need the opportunity to earn something far more important than money,they need the survival component in their lives that will bring out their best talents.

Aborigines are great artists,athletes and interpretors of nature.Given the motivation ,they can achieve much more.We have seen many represented in boxing,the Rugby codes,tennis and athletics.The really big shame is that we have not one representing Australia at this World Cup.

When we stop having this special needs mentality towards them,they will then have the opportunity and courage to do better on their own terms,rather than those of impotent social engineers who can't get a job in the real world.

ZORRO
What's the matter with students? I like students they have inquiring minds (here I am).

An academic in a cloistered ivory tower. I am not really an academic but I like my ivory tower.

Invasion is a trendy left-wing word? So what? It describes what happened to the Indigenous peoples (find me?).

Zorro says sprouting my "noble savage" to gullable and ignorant. No I don't recall sprouting about "noble savage". They are your words not mine. I thnk that there are many noble aspects to Indigenous peoples.

Dreamtime stories have a great deal of significance to Indigenous peoples - I respect that.

I love most punk rockers. I love their attitude. That FU attitude, I'll not follow the dominant paradigm like the majority.

No Zorro I didn't cut and paste. I typed them all for people who are serious about understanding the truth rather than just pushing their Hansonite or political position.

I can tell you don't give a rat's about the foundatons of modern thinking - that's obvious.

Beg my pardon my typos and lost noun. And yes you were right to capitalise on that to attack my intellect (or should that be intellectual capacity). Diversion Rancitas hater?

Yes I am proud of my bleeding heart attitude - empathy is a positive character trait. People without that capacity are usually psychopathic (Insert lost noun here. I haven't the intellectual capacity, or is that English skills, to think of an appropriate one).

Beg me pardon my typos and lost noun. And yes you was right to capitalise on that to attack me interlect (or should that be intellectual capacity).

As for part two it clearly indicates to me who the "bloody idiot" really is. OOps I'm such hypocrite such harsh words from a bleeding heart. Of course you're allowed to talk tough without any hypocrisy because you're not a bleeding heart. You funny.

Did you know that criminalogists in an examinaton into far right hate groups noted that the racists usually launch personal attacks on their opponents rather than engage in productive dialogue - this is because they have no valid arguments - just hateful remarks.

You didn't waste your time ZORRO for us, cause you confirmed that racism is alive and well in Australia. As for part two it clearly indicates to me who the "bloody idiot" really is. Beg my pardon my typos and lost noun. And yes you was right to capitalise on that to attack me interlect (or should that be intellectual capacity).

Posters compare my postswhich Zorro says are full of "bile" to ZORRO's and Horus.

You didn't waste your time ZORRO. For us at least, cause you confirmed that racism is alive and well in Australia. PEACE AND LOVE & BIG HUG FOR ZORRO (from my bleeding heart).

All I can say is european settlement is completely the blame for the current situation of remote Aboriginal communities.
With Euroopean culture came the removal of children, removal of land enriched with aboriginal culture and tradition, the braking up of families and the introduction of drugs and alcohol.
These people were expected to immediatly fall into european life and happily give up there children and culture. The result of this is what were seeing today across the news.
These people have nothing making alcohol and drugs a very attractive option out of a miserable life. They havent had the opportunities we have been given, they dont know that life isnt meant to be like that. How could they, everything was taken from them...!

Aboriginal culture is a beautiful culture and Im proud to be apart of it.

Rancitas,
“I'll not follow the dominant paradigm like the majority.”
Disagree-Your views are right up there with those held by the most career conscious academics. And it’s very much the dominant paradigm, in the media & arts world.
Middle Australia doesn’t count- as it was brow beaten long ago into keeping its mouth shut on the issue. The only opposing views you’ll encounter are from a few diehard refuseniks.

“Yes I am proud of my bleeding heart attitude-- empathy is a positive character trait.”
”Agree-Some bleeding-hearts are very selective -
But I’m sure you’re not that sort of bloke. You sound genuine to me.
So, please, I encourage you to contribute as much of your personal fortune as it takes, to whatever worthy cause takes your fancy.

‘Did you know that criminologists in an examination into far right hate groups noted that the racists usually launch personal attacks on their opponents’
Agree-but it seems that criminologists have overlooked a major field of study on the left side of politics. I expect that criminologist haven’t cottoned onto the left yet because they are so professional at it –much better than the amateurish attempts of the right.

‘Racism is alive and well in Australia’
Agree - but its main fountainheads are:
1) People who seek to grant special rights/status to people on the basis of ethnicity
(If there is a need, let any assessment be based on means test –rather than racial ID) &
2) People who seek to demonize other races in the guise of “closure” & “reconciliation”.
Racism is not some affliction endemic to the “white race”, or those on the “right”, it can be found in all races, all nations and all groups.
And if someone does not accept your views on a subject, it does necessarily make them racist

Horus. Most of Zorro, Leigh and your thinking can be found in any right-wing site. It is a dominant thinking in right-wing circles and has taken root in mainstream politics. You and Zorro are just repeatiing stuff that John Stone and other racists rely on. The spittle cliche is a Stoner. No independent thinking here.

So what has the left side of politics to do with Rancitas? Horus your response is such a standard right-wing response? Put 'em in box and kick the box.

Horus I don't belong to any political organisation or group. Do you?

If you Horus can't see the sense in my arguments about why I think that certain groups and their ideas are racist, then what do you hope to achieve by simply asserting platitudes. I haven't seen one logical response from you or the rest of your mob.

You need to ask yourself why you find it necessary to stereotype Rancitas. You need to ask why you need to divert off into tangents about other matters that have little to do with the arguments or opinions that Rancitas has posited.

Zorro for instance launches into a savage personal attack over whether a verb was singular or plural. Did Rancitas attack Horus in that way when you stuffed up with your use of plurals? Did I attack Leigh for his typos? No.

RUM, SODOMY, BLACK BASHING, and SO ON are a part of Australian history and current culture. You get yourself all worked up that the Indigenous peoples' aren't gentrified to your levels while ignoring our own history.

Horus you spend a lot of time trying to discredit Indigenous culture and those that appreciate it. That suggests racist thinking and cultural supremacism.

Your observation that the "white race" can be the brunt of racism is nothing new. The article above was cleary in relation to Indigenous peoples. I responded to posts that were clearly attacking Indigenous culture.

You are bent on bogging down this thread with stereotypes. I find it interesting that Horus to respond on ZORRO's behalf.

No doubt ZORRO ran out of malicious platitudes.

Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languagesResearch indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languagesResearch indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.
Research indicates that pre-invasion there were 750,000 indigenous people in Australia, and now there are around 200,000. There were 500 distinct groups using 200 distinct languages.

Research of these posts indicates that post invasion there are many distinct racist groups that are trying to undermine other distinct racial groups and their cultures. This is racism.

Rancitas says:
‘RUM, SODOMY, BLACK BASHING and SO ON are a part of (white) Australian history and current culture’Horus responds: I won’t argue with that. –but will say it has by no means been a central feature of Australian culture.
However, RUM, SODOMY, and SO ON has (also) been a part of Indigenous history & current culture,
With the “SO ON” part when applied to Indigenous Culture, including such unmentionables as child molestation, & wife beating.

We are also finding that WHITE BASHING is becoming an increasing important part of indigenous culture & history. Its seems to be employed to describe away every deficiency of the Aboriginal lifestyle or history.

I know you’re big on “logic” Rancitas so I’m just try to come to grips with your thinking.
Now, Rancitas can say RUM, SODOMY, BLACK BASHING, and SO ON are a part of Australian history and current culture’ and you assume that that is forthright, fair & reasonable.
But if a non-Aboriginal is critical of indigenous cultures/history they are labelled a racist or a cultural supremacist.Hmmm! You are right - I’m no good at this type of logic.

Rancitas says:
‘Horus you spend a lot of time trying to discredit indigenous culture and those that appreciate it.'
Horus responds: I do not seek to discredit indigenous culture. I only to seek to have it portrayed more accurately –others can assess its worth for themselves.

My argument is only with the with the narrative which portrays Pre-European Australia as a Garden of Eden populated by a tolerant, environmentally conscious, Adams & Eves who were cast out of paradise when the evil white serpent stole into the garden.

Horus says: "I do not seek to discredit indigenous culture. I only to seek to have it portrayed more accurately –others can assess its worth for themselves."

Show me where you, and the others you support, have given any positive examples of indigenous culture in this thread. You have put such a negative spin on your "accurate" account of indigenous culture and its worth that I think it clearly points to racism.

You say: "But if a non-Aboriginal is critical of indigenous cultures/history they are labelled a racist or a cultural supremacist.Hmmm!"

The attacks on indigenous culture in this thread go way beyond criticism and off into the realm of spin. I ask again, why do you and your mob focus on the negatives of indigenous culture and yet virtually ignore the same negatives in Euroculture? I think it is because you are trying to discredit the indigenous peoples for political/religious reasons.

You talk about "white bashing". You seem to have a very slanted view of Australian history. I refer you to the many white supremist web sites; to white Australia policies; to the trendy Hansonites; to the fact that the theft of indigenous peoples lands and their children is somehow jusitfied because Euroculture as a whole is supposedly more superior (you and yours are trying to entrench that thinking); your refusal to treat with respect the testimonies of Indigenous people in regard to atrocities and injustices they've endured; our own prime minister who is afraid to check the racist carry on in Australia for fear of an electoral backlash. Like you Horus, he and his Liberal party like to fall back on the "bleeding heart", "do-gooder", "soft-left", "bloody idiot" type of response. No substance.

The incidences of racism against Europeans, especially in policy making, in Australia compared to racism against Indigenous peoples is just not comparable. Indigenous people have put up with too much.

You can whinge and whine all you like about your thinking being identified as racist. I've heard all the excuses - all the "ifs" and "buts". Your approach suggests that your position is racist.

Racitas,
There was an old tradition in Europe, where swordsmen would cherish their scars.The thinking being that it was a sign of honour/worth.
Sometimes your thinking takes on a similar hue-you seem to think there is great merit in playing the game- 'I have more scars than you'.

As I thought we previously agreed, there is no monolithic Aboriginal culture.And there is no universal Aboriginal experience

I was watching “Message Sticks” the other day.
It had a story about young Australians growing up in Broken Hill.
They were Aboriginals & Non-Aboriginals (though frankly I couldn’t tell the difference)
They had;
-Euro-punk hair styles
-Polynesian type tattoos
-Danced to US rap music
-Played AFL &
-Dreamed of doing well in the capitalist world.

This is increasingly “Aboriginal culture”.
Like “Euro culture” it mixes & merges many things from other cultures.It’s something I see increasingly where young Aboriginals are able to escape from the constraints of traditional society.

People like you Racitas, who are stuck in the past are increasingly irrelevant.

It’s less & less about us versus them, and more & more about US.

.

"The way Indigenous deal with these tragedies is truly noble. They have truly noble cultural influence to do that. We need these positve influence in our society more than ever.

What else is good? Their art, their music - they sings songs of justice that suggest to me a culture that has a developed sense of justice - unlike our country’s rulers and Leigh and Zorro.

Archie Roach, Kev Carmody,Jimmy Little, Warumpi Band comes to mind. I like the way Indigenous culture has influenced our art and music. Paul Kelly and even punk rockers Frenzal Rhomb and punk rappers The Herd. I like Rainer’s posts. They contribute to making this country a more cultural diverse and meaningful place."

This is an earlier post of Rancitas on this thread. Horus you see what you want to see; read into things what you want to read.

Electric guitars, drums, amps, speakers, popular music are adapted from Euroculture. Read also my other posts on other threads on these matters. Horus, you are so bogged down in what the stereotype is supposed to say that you are apparently too obsessed to read what is actually said.

Now your racist mind conveniently wants the Indigenous peoples to forget their history and pretend that there was no injustice - that it is all irrelevant. I disagree with you Horus.

Why is Horus et al so strident in whitewashing cultural and historical negatives of European culture while bashing into Indigenous culture regardless of the many positives in Indigenous cultures? I think it points to racism.

It is dishonest to verbal posters Horus. For instance: You say that Rancitas takes merit in playing the game 'I have more scars than you'.

Rancitas never said that nor plays any such games.

That assertion is incorrect and dishonest. Just as your previous dishonest behaviour of quoting Rancitas' concluding statement and then not putting it in the context of my supporting arguments demonstrates your lack of sensible arguments.

Horus, has it ever occured to you that you don't know 'what you don't know'. ?

For Rainer:
It has occurred to me Rainer that you "don’t know" a lot of what you profess to know.

At a personal level I have not doubts you are a likable bloke.

Yet it is amazing, when someone challenges your beliefs, how quickly you turn foul (or should that be fowl).

Hving just read all comments,this is my verdict,Rancitas 100% correct, Big Al.your comment about flags,who says that the Aboriginal people's flag,should be replaced with the Australian flag,my view is that the Aboriginal flag,is Australian,the Australian flag reminds me of colonial rule?, Bush bred grow up and do not classify the Aboriginal people in your stupid way,they are not a beaten people,time will prove that,and then there is Zoro 0/100%,there is also a racist element in some of these comments in general

As to the debate about Aboriginal people and their culture,there to seems to be unfounded and non logical comments and interpretations,with regard to culture,but to put all into one basket,is wrong,all I know is this,is Australia,and the Aboriginal culture,as seen through the eyes of some,really does not count,after all the Aboriginal Race,and not people as some would like us to believe,as an example Andrew Bolt,from the rightwing think tank,a brainless lot of self believers,that they are right,the Aboriginal RACE,have culture,and what has white Australia got to offer us as CULTURE.On a closing note,someone wrote,that the left is always being beaten,by the rightwing THINK TANK,that is bulldust,there are some of us who are not willing to give up the fight against the right,and this writer,is not prepared to give in to the rightwing views and opinions of a minority,but must mention the name Andrew Bolt,riding high with his opinions,but will in due time,be brought down to earth,this writer,has been around for some period of time,and have encountered many Andrew Bolts,who are now history