Someone always has to put the boot into Muslims don't they Leigh. Nothing better to occupy your time with I suspect. Most Muslim stories are the same as the the Judeo-Christian ones with a variation here and there. My husband was thrilled they told the mostly Koranic version of Moses in the Ch. 7 Sunday - Monday night mini-series. I thought it was a bit tacky personally and prefer the original version. I had to inform him that that was ALSO the Judeo-Christian version. He was astounded - really they tell the same story - afraid so dear !

Anyway back to the topic at hand a good yarn is worthy whatever religion it may be from.

Philo, I am just a "nobody" and if "nobody" is perfect then that seems to makes me perfect. On reflection, if Hitler did say that atheism was "a return to the state of the animal", I'll take that as a complement along with heathen, rationalist, skeptic or whatever. However, one can dismiss Shirley's nonsense of omniscient, ....... but when you say "Until you realise you are standing outside the human mind making clinical comments suggest there is a part of you that is not defined by your own analysis. It is called the will or the spirit." it deserves some examination. (Bear in mind that OLO does present some limits.)

Spirit implies intelligence, consciousness and sentience. My thoughts are that a spirit develops and grows as an integral aspect of each living being, is a physical process, not a miracle nor some break in the fabric of causation. When that living being dies, so does its spirit. We have a connected material brain sufficient to account for the evolution of spirit in a material and infinite universe.

How this living spirit functions in its lifetime people have written countless volumes, whilst religions, monachies, politicians, the media and who knows what else have turned it into a controling business. So the first point to make is that whilst this living spirit is fundamentally endowed, necessary, unique and precious to each living being, our nerve-centre for spiritual beliefs develops and evolves in constant connection with an evolving environment giving each individual a collective set of perceptions. It is the control of these perceptions that produces purposeful behaviour.

Perhaps it's best to pause here to see if you and others are with these thoughts. Solomani, are you there because I have mentioned evolution? Will get to those teddies and playpens in good time as well. How exciting this is.

Keiran

Perception is the processing of multiplicity of stimuli that when compared against our stored (accepted) beliefs make "sense to us. i.e. if your belief of God or gods is a "Teddy" that is what your "mind" will perceive. You cannot believe beyond your own beliefs.

Unlike animalistic “reactive instinct” we humans have more than an “evolved” grey matter. There is a non-physical God-shaped spot that is receptive to an unquantifiable (but real) stimuli...God's voice.

Beyond our human spirit, above all human understanding, beyond matter, is the Spirit of God. That Spirit is what a (true) believer has deep in his soul. You need to calibrate this non-part of your being that is hindering you from perceiving - let alone understand – the total scheme of things.

We (believers) can argue with you till the cows come home, but it will mostly be a waste, if the necessary “software”is ready to decipher what we say.

God – by His Grace – is allowing you, a mere creature to Him, to intellectualise to your heart content. He has taken much wiser people than you to a point where they finally discovered their futile foolishness.

So don’t give up yet. You need to crawl before you can stand up and face the real world, as God intended it to be. Then it will be time to get on your knees and bow to the superiority of your creator…and start the relationship with Him through His Son Jesus.

Perhaps it is time for you to give up your ‘teddy’ and join the grown ups

Coach, thank you for your thoughts and concern but the simple fact is that I do not have a teddy although plenty of well meaning people have tried to give me one. In its place there seems to be a will to truth and some degree of curiosity about all manner of stuff where the vision I get is more awesome, more breathtaking, more inspiring.

When one says "You cannot believe beyond your own beliefs." I just wonder where this depressing thought originates but it is remarkable in being able to express solipsism and fatalism in one breath. This is stunning arrogance with an unreasonable certainty. To say you cannot find something is absurd but not surprising when I see many of these teddy infected types. (include a media teddy as well)

Seems like this "animalistic “reactive instinct”" stuff pops out of a similar anthropocentric mindset. Behavior as I understand it, is neither just caused by stimuli in the environment nor is it blind execution of internal plans. Behaviour from a one celled organism to a complex organism is purposeful and a means of controlling perceptions. Why even a number of animals display altruistic behaviours and even some birdsong is aesthetic in intent.

There also is this problem with the soul. I don't believe we have one of these because all these deep feelings and empathy belong in this living spirit. Also, this " non-physical God-shaped spot" has me intrigued. Are you saying your teddy has placed a vacuum in there somewhere? Of course a true vacuum simply cannot exist although there is no telling what these teddies can get up to.

In my optimism, my thoughts may get some people to think about these important matters in a slightly different manner. Must say it's a lot of fun in the process and may continue in Peter Sellick's "The source of true self".

Keiran "You cannot believe beyond your own beliefs." What I meant there is that you can only believe that which makes sense to you according to your present subconscious convinctions, what you truly believe to be the truth and is deeply embeded in your mind will act like a protective filter against new information.

It is not necessarely a negative thing - and it can be altered by displacement or replacement with a new conviction.

Most fears and phobias can be explaned (and cured) using that principle.

So if you believe there is no "soul" it is according to your own truths or convictions. It does not mean that souls exist or not.

I admire your sense of curiosity and adventure. If you continue to investigate with an open mind you will find new truths.

Birds like most animals behave in a distinct predictable manner programmed in advance by the creator God. Of course it is beautiful and perfect in every way - one can see the master touch of greatness in the simplest of creatures.

Humans are superior to animals not by evolution but by intentional design. We might share some of our physiologies but we were created for a different reason than biology. We can think and initiate (create) new thoughts.

God has a plan for each one of us according to His will. To take God out of our life is to limit our full understanding.

It is like a splendid guitare that is badly out of tune and the tension keys have been removed. No matter how much you try, only noise not music will be heard.

An Oklahoma man killed his ten-year-old neighbour. He raped her and ate her flesh.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/wouldbe-cannibal-kills-girl/2006/04/17/1145126057239.html

Why would God allow this to happen? Why did an innocent child have to die to fulfill His plan? Was the cannibal performing the work of satan? But if God is omnipotent and omniscient couldn't he stop Satan's plan from coming to fruition?

If your God is love, why does he not love children enough to prevent their slaughter?

Why did he not intervene to stop those nasty atheists, Hitler, Stalin and Mao?

I'm just asking...