Boaz, you confuse me. But that is not unusual, I guess.

>>I feel the Lord is expressing in extreme language the divine standard of love and purity, but only 'in Him', can we even approach this let alone attain it.<<

In simple language, please: are we supposed to take any notice at all of the things "He" is reported to have said? Or do we just stand back in awe and say wow, that's a standard I can't be expected to attain, so I don't need to try?

Ah but, I hear you say, approached "in Him", you can.

But which comes first, the striving or the "in Him-ness"?

I think you may be confusing the situation just for the sake of providing a rebuttal. I quoted a familar - extremely familar - bit of preaching, and you feel the need to make a retort. Even with the next line, it still sounds to me like an example of "how to be a good Christian."

Is it, or isn't it?

Strewth, it may sound a little heartless to to you. But to me, religion is all about choice. Unlike being born black or white, which you have no control over, individuals are able to exercise choice of religion.

If you choose to be a Christian in a predominantly non-Christian society, fine. But to then ask for "support: material, moral, political and spiritual" to change your environment to one more congenial to you, is unrealistic.

Baoz: "anti-Israel rampage"? Too many facts for you to handle?
"Damour 1972"? Sorry, it's 1976. Let me provide the c-o-n-t-e-x-t aka the Lebanese civil war: "The blockade of of the Palestinian camps in east Beirut [by the Maronite Christian Lebanese Forces] finally brought the main PLO forces into the conflict, a development which, as the Maronites should have foreseen, radically altered the balance of power. In order to relieve pressure on the large [Palestinian] camp at Tal Zaatar, the Palestinians sent reinforcements to help the [Lebanese] National Movement's offensive against the Maronite coastal districts south of Beirut...On 20 January [1976] Damour fell and, in retaliation for the massacres at Qarantina and Maslakh, many of its inhabitants were killed..." (Lebanon: The Fractured Country, David Gilmour p127) And don't get me wrong: I deplore massacres whoever perpetrates them, Palestinians, Lebanese, Israelis etc Mmm...wonder what those Palestinian refugee camps were doing in Beirut? But that only leads to a consideration of other massacres - of Palestinians by Israelis and you wouldn't be interested in that now, would you?
As for Jacob/Esau/God etc please spare me your Christian Zionist claptrap, I'm immune.

Dear Strewth....
Your a bit of a mystery in some ways.. (oh..b4 I forget ur right Damour was 76) you point to unending massacres by all sides, yet you seem to have a rabid if somewhat morbid clinging to the idea that somewhere in the midst of all this there is a 'good guy'.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7079
[On April 13th, 1975 at 1.15pm, Lebanon exploded. A single action that built on previous actions caused the whole country to go up in flames.
endquote]

If I'm not wrong, the single action which precipitated the above was the slaughter of 4 Christians, one of whom was a high ranking Maronite.
Now.. we can go hither and thither to try to find greater or lesser degrees of culpability, but the lesson of history which seems to be flying over your head is this.."This region has NEVER existed apart from the rule of 'rule or be ruled/kill or be killed'. You only have to read the Old Testament Exodus,Joshua,Judges,Samuel, Kings etc for a glimpse of this in vivid lexicolor.

So, I'll play the part of the 'negotiator'..'What, do you want' ?

I've gleaned that you seem to believe (Mistakenly) that the Arabs of the PLO and living in Palestine are 'indigenous' which is to deny 2000 yrs of history and its many layers, and raises the question 'at which point' do we decide 'it begins here' ?

Do you seriously hope or think that Israel will 'not be' ? That the Arabs booted out of Israel are going to gain the right to return ? That my friend is fairyland.

Christian Zionist 'claptrap' aside.. the question still remains.... where do 'you' stand before your creator ? While we can debate the issue of the place of Israel in 'last things' ..and lets be clear, some Christians totally reject the idea of a modern Israel figuring in the 'last things'. This doesn't change the issue of 'you'.

The problem of Palestine/Israel began not in 1948 but with the Fall, in Adam. It is solved 'in Christ' right here, right now in 2006.

Pericles, next post mate.

Dear Pericles,

The sermon on the mount, is quite central to the understanding of Gods Holiness, Love and Justice. All are dimensions of our Creator.

The teaching of Jesus, is as attainable as our willingness to turn "from" self and "to" God.

Outlining a framework of ethics which is by and large unattainable, may seem at first glance to lack purpose and point, "Why state it, if it cannot be reached" as you say. Why not focus on more acheivable ethics ? Indeed !.

We should remember one thing though, Jesus talked...and He also walked. As He spoke, so he also lived. Therefore it is 'in Him' ... as our lives are drawn under His Lordship and we are transformed by inner renewal, we become more like Him.

But note the difference between 'positional' righteousness and 'practical' righteousness. "Abraham believed God, and it was considered righteousness". We are saved by 'faith' not by the number of good deeds we do. The fruit of that faith must be the deeds.
Faith=> Renewal=> Deeds/actions.

The point of the Gospel and call of God in Christ is that of reconciliation, salvation, and our eternal destiny.

It means turning from a 'me' centred life to a 'Christ' centered life.

To be 'in Christ' means this: (from2Corinthians5)

17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

"Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come."

Charlotte Elliot 1835

Bd, “Jesus said "If your eye sins.. gouge it out, if your hand sins, cut it off".
"I feel the Lord is expressing in extreme language the divine standard of love and purity, but only 'in Him', can we even approach this let alone attain it. *hint*".

Well said, the lord was expressing the divine standard of love and purity in him. Cutting of hands, gouging out eyes. A perfect example of christian love and purity. I suppose your in a wheelchair using a machine to type for you in braile, owing to your lack of hands, feet and eyes. Or are you too pure to follow your messiahs laws. Is your *hint* related to being footless and fancy free, or that your not "in him" deep enough and can only recite in hope.

Booz, I know that self-criticism and religious flummery of the Christian Zionist variety are incapable of co-existence so I'll address myself to anyone else who may be reading this: "...the idea that somewhere in the midst of all [these massacres] there is a good guy"? Isn't this precisely his position with regard to the religious fantasy that Jews are a divinely chosen people? A harmless enough nonsense, of course, except for the corollary that non-Jews, not Booz of course, but those of 'Middle Eastern appearance' are only there to be trampled underfoot by said chosen ones. His theology is on a par with his grasp of history: "...the slaughter of 4 Christians, one of whom was a high ranking Maronite...precipitated [the Lebanese civil war]?". The massacre of a busload of Palestinians by the Maronite Kata'ib militia in April 1975, which was the immediate cause of the war, is completely disregarded by B because of his fixed belief that such people as Palestinians, whether Christian or Muslim, simply do not matter. Instead he focuses exclusively on a drive-by shooting (his "slaughter") by unknown gunmen of "four men, two of them members of the Kata'ib militia and one the bodyguard of Pierre Jumayyil [the Kata'ib leader]" (Crossroads to Civil War: Lebanon 1958-1976, Kamal Salibi p98), assuming the gunmen to have been Palestinians when they could just as easily have been rival Maronite militia/SSNP/Nasserites/ Lebanese Baathists/Druze militia/even Mossad agents - no one knows! Except Booz, the chosen one, of course. Then the chosen one lectures us that the right of return of "the Arabs booted out of Palestine [at least he's got that right]" in 1948 and 1967, enshrined in international law and UN resolution 194, is "fairyland", while trumpeting the 'divine right', based on biblical fairytales, of certain chosen New Yorkers, Chicagoans etc to 'return' to Palestine and push the natives around.