Excellent enlighting article Abe,

Peace,

You've conveniently ignored the real issue here, namely your Palestinian Muslim "brothers." It is they who want you gone, not the Israelis or the Americans. Your numbers are stable in Israel but collapsing in the occupied territories and the rest of the Arab world. Arab Christians are made to feel unwelcome, or worse, in the Muslim countries of the Middle East. But don't just take my word for it, see http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=829

Abe, I find your piece puzzling in the extreme. You correctly draw attention to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Christians but with no mention of who or what's behind it: the relentless expansion since 1948 of political Zionism with its goal of a Greater Israel and consequent dispossession of indigenous Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim. In an age of spin, is it not time to call a spade a spade?

Kick all religion to the curb and live in peace.

Strewth, "Political Zionism" does not have a goal of a greater Israel. It is the Arab world that refuses to regonise Israel's right to exist and wants to destroy it, not the other way around.

And why don't you call your spade a spade instead of cowardly hiding behind your spin?

jeremy29

I don't have to take your word for anything. CAMERA is a Zionist organisation (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) which claims to present the truth on the Middle East - not that they'd be biased in anyway, but somehow all their reports are pro-Israel - who'da thunk that?

Truth is Zionists (as opposed to Jews) are keen on ridding Israel of both Christians AND Muslims.

jeremy29: Pull the other one.

There is not a religious leader alive (maybe the Dali lama) able to look past their religious persuasion and let others simply live. Religion is full of judgements against other religions. These so called peaceful people are the main source of conflict in our world today and yesterday.

I'll say what I've been saying. Your beliefs are a personal choice. Keep it to yourself and quit whining.

jeremy29 is spot on.

When I saw this article I thought "about time" but alas, it's nonsensical gibberish.

I've known Palestinian Christians all my life, and although I don't formulate my position on their emotional stories about being oppressed by Muslims, not Jews, Muslims, I do know they are telling the truth.

Bethlehem is a perfect example. In 1995, the Israeli's gave the PLO organisational duties, administration and the like, effectively giving them control of the town. Since then, when Bethlehem was 80% Christian, it is now 20%.

There has been a campaign to remove Christians, and it annoys me that, although the church has spoken out, our western governments, who owe our system of living to the ideas of Christ (tolerance, equality, things that basically are lacking everywhere but the west), no western nation cares.

I know some Arabs see it as their "duty" to think of themself as an Arab before a Christian, hence the utter lunacy of this writers comments, and support for his "Muslim brothers".

Those Muslim brothers are likely to enact Sharia provisions in parliament very soon, you do know that right? You do know that Hamas are strict Islamists, as are their financiers, the morally corupt & backward Islamic state of Iran.

A truly poor article. Lets have the same topic written about, but from an objective instead of emotional, angle.

Benjamin: Any old gibberish will do to deflect readers' attention from the sheer nastiness of Israel's slo-mo ethnic cleansing of Bethlehem and the rest of the Occupied Palestinian Territories. You Z-men must really be getting desperate.

From : Rafique Iscandar_ACU

Christians are responsible too for this dark fate

Despite we feel and share the same sentiments of desperate, and betrayal ,we disagree with the article misrepresentation of the problem. Copts, Maronites, and Assyrians have lost major portion of their population. Christian should study their mistakes before blaming American Religious Right, and Israel.A considerable part of Christians' Clergy, and intellectuals allied themselves with the Arabs in their unjust wars against Israel. Palestinian Clergy such as Bishop Atallah Hanna, and others have caused damage to Palestinians greater than the damage caused by Islamists. For instance, Bishop Atalla , Coptic Bishop Bissinty are praising, and encouraging suicide bombers, however, they deceive and silent their people . Many occasions Yasser Araffat described " Pope Shenouda III", as Pope of the Arab.
How many of our religious, and political leaders denounce, ongoing atrocities against Christians by the Arab Islamists? The answer is none.
Palestinians, such as Azmy Bishara, an Israeli Parliament member, Hanan Ashrawy, and others have never mentioned violence against Palestinian Christian by Islamists, while speaking with wrongful and weak allegation against Israeli when it comes to the Christian situation. On the Coptic side, we hear Clergies including Pope Shenouda, and Coptic activists in Egypt, and US denied the rights of their own people.
Since the early beginning of Israel re-birth, Middle East Christians put themselves in trouble by claiming that they are Arabs. This claim has depicted Christians as foes to America, Europe, and Israel. Now we must acknowledge the mistakes of our leaders, and correct it.
The defeat of Arab made them afraid that Christian will be a bridge for America, and Israel to the Middle Eastern. That's why Christian are ethnically cleansed .
We Christians need to think, seek the truth, and understand that Arab regimes, and our infiltrated religious, and political leaders are responsible for our great grieve and darkness of our minds, and hearts.

The truth, United States, Israel, somehow are responsible for plight of Christians by appeasing Arab despotic regimes by supporting them.

Thanks

Same religion, “god”, same tactics from all 3 factions, same history, same outcome. All violently bad.

I fail to see the rational for a religious one to claim victimisation, when his own belief system is governed by victimisation, suppression and control. Does t really matter whether its jews, christians or muslims, they all want final control, even to the point of destroying those that follow the same god. Now I call that a very rational belief system.

They are either threatening, lying or bleating. What we need is a really strong government that puts a stop to this bastardry of life by monotheists, in the guise of doing good and spreading the true word.

Its ironic that the birth place of the god religion is the most violent place on earth and that violence is between the 3 factions, no other force is involved, just god.

The problem could have been solved largely by denoting the 4 biggest Christian cities in Palestine as free cities and put them under the UN.
Similar problems exist in Lebanon, where Christians have found themselves caught between Isreal and the Muslims, and have suffered disproportionately.

Abe, your article is so interesting, and which also has us wondering what happened to the Christians in Saddam's Iraq? Cannot think of his name right now, but there was one Christian fellow who was in Saddam's upper echelon. He was making quite a name for himself as Baghdad was being missiled.

But also, Abe, concerning your wondering about Israelis or Jews being saved when the Endtimes arrive, or if there really is a Second Coming. Right here in Mandurah, WA, there is a wayout former Amglican group, who are now very sure about being saved, simiar to the US right-wingers, but also say very earnestly that they have received word that the Jews have all been forgiven by the Good Lord, our Saviour when the Endtimes arrive, due to welcome the Israelis apparently also.

As the above could fit in well with George W Bush's campaign to save the Israelis and also the world, does any of our group know more about it?

Brushy.. you are thinking of Tariq Aziz. In very poor health at the moment.

ABE. it is most difficult to know how to respond to your article, but one thing is for sure, it cannot be along 'ethnic' or 'nationalistic' lines. From day one, the believers were persecuted, chased, hunted, and harrassed. There response was to flee..and then PROCLAIM THE WORD of the Gospel, where ever they went.

Those not scattered during the first persecution, received some respite when their main antagonist SAUL of Tarsus,was miraculously transformed into the main evangelist/Apostle/theologian of the early Church.

Being Christian is not to have any guarantee of land tenure, nationalistic tradition, or peace. It can be quite the opposite.

As a practical pathway which might have some effect, I recommend you lobby the Israelies and the USA for fairer consideration. You must persuade the Israelis that you support their existence, and the Americans of their human responsibility.

The PLO will use you for propoganda purposes only, you are too insignificant now numerically to 'count' to them in any other way.
One of you is in my own church. (from Ramallah, an Arab)

ABE.. look to Jesus... the author and finisher of our faith.. no matter what your view of the last days is, or Israel's place in it, our primary goal should always be to shine forth the love and reality of Christ as Saviour and soon coming Lord.

Standing for Christ is costly, but geography can never rob is of the priceless treasure of knowing Him.

Abe, the believers will always be at 'home' no matter where they are, because as u know, "Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in HIS name..there He is"

So, Abe.. I just urge you and every Palestinian brother or sister in Christ, to focus on the Lord, and remember Pauls words

Phil 3:7
But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.

So many falsehoods; so little time and space.

I hope Abe doesn’t teach statistics, because his piece is an ugly farrago of distortions and spurious assertions. A quick perusal of the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS) website provides clear evidence of the misleading material that he presents to the unwitting and unwise.
(http://www1.cbs.gov.il/shnaton56/st02_01.pdf)

Contrary to Abe’s assertion, Israeli CBS DOES distinguish between Arab and non-Arab Christians. And Israeli CBS yearbook data show that the number of Christian Arab Israelis has INCREASED in recent years, rather than declined. Between 1994 and 2004, the Christian Arab Israeli population grew by 17% from 101,400 to 117,300.

So much for the thesis of Abe’s piece.

Over in the West Bank, the real problem for Palestinian Christians stems from a completely different source. Article 2 of the Palestinian constitution proudly proclaims “the Palestinian people is part of the Arab and ISLAMIC [my emphasis] nations.”

And while Article 5 and 7 of the Constitution pay lip service to religious pluralism, they also establish quite firmly that a Palestinian state is to be Islamic by definition (why isn’t this example of religious sectarianism being attacked by all those critics of Zionism?).

The fact is that the principle of religious freedom is honoured in the Arab world far more in the breach than the observance. The Coptic Christian minority in Egypt is subject to all sorts of social and economic discrimination. And the same problem prevails within Palestinian society. Persecution by the Palestinian Muslim majority is a major reason for the flight of Palestinian Christians from the West Bank. And now with the election of an explicitly jihadist Hamas Palestinian government, the plight of Christians in places like Bethlehem and Ramallah will only worsen.

It just goes to show that free elections are not the end all and be all of democracy. Democracy also requires political and religious pluralism, a free press and unfettered liberty of expression, and equality for women. And by all these measures, the Arab world in general, and Palestinian society in particular, fall short of the mark

Strewth believes a comment which sounds as though the person knows what they're talking about means that they really do know.

What it really means is that they have no idea.

Zionist?

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Are you so brainwashed by our mainstream leftist media that anybody who says anything supporting Israel, or is even just neutral, is a Zionist?

Slander & insults mean nothing, and yet your point is still nonsense.

It is reality that the Christians of Bethlehem are pouring out of there, and that since the Israeli's gave the town to the PLO in 1995, that towns Christian population has gone from 80 to 20%.

I agree with you that the Israeli's probably want them out too, but they left due to persecution from Muslims.

Is that really so hard to believe?

I mean, Christians are fleeing everywhere else too you know. 1000 leave Iraq each week, because of persecution. There have been numerous bombing campaigns, assasinations of priests, as they don't fit in with the bigoted Islamist view of Iraq.

You must have heard about the Christian in Afghanistan - I didn't know there were any. On that point, one third of Kabul used to be Jewish, in the 1930's, and the same goes for Baghdad.

It was when colonialism ended, and Muslims ran their own affairs, that the persecution of minorities occured.

I think we left about 100 years too early, no doubt you'll misinterpret that too.

We need to do something in that whole region, similar to what Attaturk did for Turkey, although they still have a long way to go, but they are the closest to westerners in the Islamic world.

Truly though, to not believe that persecution of Christians exists in Palestine, or everywhere else Muslims are for that matter, is bizarre.

It even happens here. After every terrorist attack, churches in and around Auburn, Bankstown, have been burnt.

Four were burnt after Cronulla alone, although why they brought religion into it says a lot about them doesn't it

So many falsehoods - so little time and space: Ted Lapkin, leading light of Australia's Israel lobby, says, "Persecution by the Palestinian Muslim majority is a major reason for the flight of Palestinian Christians from the West Bank." Amira Hass, noted Israeli journalist wrote: "Dr Bernard Sabella, a Jerusalemite and Catholic, who teaches sociology at Bethlehem University...notes [in surveys he has conducted among Christians], the main reasons for emigration cited are economic considerations and the fear of unemployment (about 40%). About 10% mentioned that life in an Islamic environment is problematic...Sabella explains that the % of emigrants among the Christians - most of whom belong to the middle class - has always been higher than among the Muslims. Middle class Christians and Muslims are more interested in personal advancement in their professions. They are particularly worried about the damage to their children's education caused by the political and security uncertainty. Some 98% of the Palestinian Christians in the [occupied] territories have relatives abroad [making] emigration a less difficult option. The collapse of tourism in Bethlehem...has impoverished many members of this middle class. Now, the confiscation of their lands...will steal most of their property from them, and with it their chance of acquiring an education." (Across the divide, 25/6/04) Eat your words, Ted.

We don't need to look far to get to the root of STREWTHS sources... and their 'flavor'...

Ha'aretz staffer Amira Hass, a Jewish resident of Ramallah, wrote several months ago that the residents of Beit Hadassah in Hevron abused the corpse of a terrorist. She wrote that the residents kicked, spat on, and danced atop the body of a dead Arab terrorist, who had just been shot and killed by soldiers shortly after he threw a grenade at them.

The residents sued the paper.. won... and Amira Hass is apparently officially a 'liar'. ?

"This judgement is no doubt a blow to the reputation of Amira Hass, world renowned for her tear-jerking reports about the poor Arabs living under the cruel post-Zionist occupation"

It appears that due to childhood trauma in Germany, she is just another 'self hating' Jew ?

I guess she also believes in the tooth fairy and that all the 'wonderful Palestinians' and the 'evil Jews' could actually live together in perfect harmony..... ?

"Ha'aretz is a liberal, free-thinking paper" code for somewhere left of marx.

The curious aspect of such journalists and of Strewth him/herself is that they actually believe the supposed 'victim' here is interested in nothing more than 'living together in harmony' once the basic 'land issue' is sorted.

Unfortunately the LAND issue is.. '100% for Islamic Hamas and Muslims, 0% for Jews. How do we know this ? easy, from the Hamas Charter.

Strewth.. do you actually READ the stuff you refer to ? The Hamas charter as already outlined elsewhere, is not about 'land' in the way we usually think, its about ISLAMIC land in the doctrinal sense.
Do you actually 'get' this ? Yes or no ?

Dr Ata must be wondering about some of the people who posted here...covert anti-Semites, people out to score cheap political or religious points.

His description of the plight of Palestinian Christians is doubtless true...they are the meat in a not v pleasant sandwich in the world's worst religious/political hotspot.

If Palestinian Christians have any sort of representative org (maybe not, given the conditions they labour under) they shd be using it to call the US religious right on its position. Some at least in the US cd be shamed into doing something for the Palestinian Christian community. Failing that, can the Churches themselves - of various denominations - not act on their behalf?

One teeny bright spot...there was a good program on ABC or SBS recently about the Palestinian authority-sponsored (with foreign $ of course) excavations in Gaza of the ancient St Hilarion monastery in Gaza. Some Palestinians at least seem to recognise that their national cultural heritage includes an important Christian component. Not much to go on, but something.

God has left the building

Aspro, “god left the building”, the planet and the universe as soon as it realised the intellect and character of those that worship him.

Benjamin wrote, “I mean, Christians are fleeing everywhere else too you know. 1000 leave Iraq each week, because of persecution.”

Thats pretty understandable considering Iraq's been liberated by their US christian brothers, who are known for their kind and gentle ways. Benjamin, there is persecution for everyone where ever monotheistic people practise their suppressive beleifs, just look around the world.

It still boils down to the same thing, my monotheistic faction is better than yours and I'll kill you to prove it. Doesn't matter where you go, they fight and abuse just the same, no difference, not even here. The abuse that is laid on all by the self righteous religious continues in the guise of, we are right you are wrong. Yet they are the first to bleat when they feel they are getting a little back from their own kin and refuse to answer to for despotic practices.

Nothing will change, all these articles are designed to inflame and create tension, so that they can get to where they want to be. The final solution and the wrath of god brought down on all those that don't follow, “my faction” of monotheistics.

Bd makes a very true statement, “Standing for Christ is costly, but geography can never rob is of the priceless treasure of knowing Him.”

Very costly for those billions murdered in gods name. “The priceless treasure of knowing him”, appears to be, destruction of your way of life, culture, economy, ecology, infrastructure and death.

“look to Jesus... the author and finisher of our faith.” The author of 2000 years of death and destruction and his big finish, world destruction.

Todays news from SMH 27/3/06 below.

Thirty bodies, most beheaded, found in Iraq
7:04am
Thirty bodies have been found on a street north of Baghdad, stepping up pressure on Iraqi leaders to form a government they hope can avert sectarian civil war.

When does it stop, and these are all Iraquis?

"Love your brother", Christ said.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is all about love and forgiving and loving others more that your self , also running the extra mile with them as well as giving them your coat and your shirt,if they are in need.

As well as turning the other cheek and taking the log out of your own eye first before you can get the splinter out of others eyes.
He spoke against revenge and pay back , as Bible says "vengence is mine says the Lord".

It will take a miracle for the evil,and terror to ever stop, or world war three ,until the next war.
As Christians we can only pray God's will to intervene for all mankinds sake.

It is suprising to read, not only from obvious anti-Israel advocates, but even from Benjamin: "I agree with you that the Israeli's probably want them out too".

Israelis feel compassion for Arab Christians and pain at their plight, just as we, Australians, feel compassion for Indonesian Christians who are similarly under duress. Israel would have liked to help those Christians and protect them as it did in previous years, but its hands are tied following the Oslo agreements that took its forces out of the main Arab cities, including Bethlehem, and is subsequently helpless to protect them when Moslem terror gangs specifically target the Christian population of Bethlehem, invade their homes at night to shoot at Israel from their windows, obviously drawing fire back at the sources.

Even Abe, who had to call herself "Palestinian" due to the gun being pointed at her and her family, said (correctly) that it is only the Israeli Right that wants them gone.

Well, Israel has absolutely no such interest, and for those who failed to notice Israel's recent uprising, led by Ariel Sharon and his follower's party, Kadima, against those marginal settler groups that held Israel politically-captive for years (led by - how not, a group of crazy American Jews), fortunately in only two days you will see that Israel rejects that "Right" and gives the green light to ridding itself of as many territories and settlements as its security can afford at this time... perhaps not so good news for the remaining non-Moslems there.

I wish Abe and all other Christian Arabs, whether still in the west bank, or wherever they are now, a very calm and peaceful Easter.

Yuyutsu claims "Moslem terror gangs specifically target the population of Bethlehem..." Document it.

Strewth, well here are some pointers, if you insist (too bad this will prevent me from responding again here for nearly 24 hours):

http://www.likud.nl/extr160.html
http://fp.thebeers.f9.co.uk/protagonists.htm under the section "Palestinian Christians"
(and unrelated, but interesting ref. to http://www.arabsforisrael.com)
http://vicmord.com/newsletter/january02newsletter1.html
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0125.htm
http://www.acpr.org.il/cloakrm/clk117.html

Finally, a site that is unsympathetic to Israel, yet admit the facts:
http://www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/286 ("5. THREATS TO PERSONAL SECURITY").

Yuyutsu, Thanks for your source www.hcef.org/hcef/index.cfm/ID/286). You spin this: "Moslem terror gangs specifically target the population of Bethlehem" from this: "Muslim rioters and Tanzim...often shoot from the rooftops of Christian houses to the nearby Gilo settlement, thus bringing Israeli military retaliation upon Christian civilians and their homes." At the same time you ignore the paragraphs either side: "Israeli military continues to employ tanks, helicopters and snipers...these inflammatory attacks punish an entire group...Daily attacks on Palestinian targets often harm innocent bystanders." And: "Numerous Christian homes have been damaged or destroyed by indiscriminate rocket fire...Other Christian homes...were occupied by soldiers, who confined residents at gunpoint, destroyed personal property and used the homes as strategic outposts, often for snipers." Read the rest if you seriously want to know about Israeli push factors and note the following: "The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem has rejected hasty speculations, maintaining that tensions between Christian and Muslim Palestinians are not historically rooted. Rather, they result from a 'third party', eg, Israeli involvement, especially within Israel in cities such as Nazareth."

At the end of his article Abe Ata makes his statement:

>>What we seek is support: material, moral, political and spiritual<<

Spiritually, surely the best support we can give him is to refer him to his own religious handbook:

"But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also".

There it is, in simple terms. Your spiritual leader has spoken - enjoy your suffering. It took me less than a minute to find this - in my industry we call it "RTFM".

Which stands for "read the manual"

In terms of political support, he is fishing a dry creek. His group has absolutely nothing to offer any political group, grouping, faction or cell in exchange for their help. Not the US, who support Israel. Not Europe, who only make secular interventions. Not China, who doesn't even support its own christians much. So no luck there.

Moral support is fortunately in greater supply, because it doesn't cost anybody to give it. Here's mine: you are in a tough position, but you have my moral support.

Use it wisely.

Finally we come to "material" support. What does the author believe would make a difference, I wonder? He doesn't actually say, so we need to guess.

Money? For whom, and to what end?

Food? He doesn't mention starvation, so that can't be it.

Weapons? Hmmm, that might be more tricky, because we immediately get into the problems of political alliances and allegiances. What you would need is to find an enemy of Palestine, and persuade them that it is in their interests to help you.

Can't think of anyone. Can you?

I guess the answer is that as a christian, you are on your own. Either convert to something more comfortably in tune with your environment, change that environment, or do what dear Boaz suggests - "shine forth the love and reality of Christ as Saviour and soon coming Lord"

Wise counsel. Whatever it means.

Pericles, You're all heart.

Dear Strewth
before you go on another Anti Israel'rampage' you might like to make some comment on the events at the Christian town of DAMOUR (25,000 people) perpetrated by the PLO, along with Mercenaries from Iran, Syria,Lybia and other Islamic countries.

Have you ever wondered what lay behind the attacks on the PLO military camps of Sabra and Shatila ? its in one word "Damour"1972.

The Israelies are no saints, and in truth the majority of them in Israel are as atheistically godless as some of their opponents are radically Islamist. But then again, when God said "Jacob I have loved, Esau I hated" it was firstly a way of saying "I have 'chosen' Jacob but not Esau for my covenant purposes" and secondly it was not at all based on any inherant virtue in Jacob himself.

So it is today, but be sure of one thing, the covenant history of Gods dealings with Israel are not forgotten, and they will utlimately be included somehow in the final consumation of history, but only those who truly accept their Messiah Jesus will ultimately see salvation. Not that I'm any expert on the subject, but the coming back of Jews to Israel appears to figure prominently in events leading up to the Last Day. Rather than 'win an argument' with you over the rights and wrongs of the Israeli's, I'm more concerned with your own state before God.

I hope you will seek Him,... and find Him. "To him who knocks, it will be opened, he who seeks, finds". But muttering on all day about human injustice without a divine reference point will achieve little.

PERICLES... you did well to bring the words of our Lord to bear on the matter. But before you 'drop verses' as u did, please consider that in the next breath Jesus said "If your eye sins.. gouge it out, if your hand sins, cut it off".
I feel the Lord is expressing in extreme language the divine standard of love and purity, but only 'in Him', can we even approach this let alone attain it. *hint*

Boaz, you confuse me. But that is not unusual, I guess.

>>I feel the Lord is expressing in extreme language the divine standard of love and purity, but only 'in Him', can we even approach this let alone attain it.<<

In simple language, please: are we supposed to take any notice at all of the things "He" is reported to have said? Or do we just stand back in awe and say wow, that's a standard I can't be expected to attain, so I don't need to try?

Ah but, I hear you say, approached "in Him", you can.

But which comes first, the striving or the "in Him-ness"?

I think you may be confusing the situation just for the sake of providing a rebuttal. I quoted a familar - extremely familar - bit of preaching, and you feel the need to make a retort. Even with the next line, it still sounds to me like an example of "how to be a good Christian."

Is it, or isn't it?

Strewth, it may sound a little heartless to to you. But to me, religion is all about choice. Unlike being born black or white, which you have no control over, individuals are able to exercise choice of religion.

If you choose to be a Christian in a predominantly non-Christian society, fine. But to then ask for "support: material, moral, political and spiritual" to change your environment to one more congenial to you, is unrealistic.

Baoz: "anti-Israel rampage"? Too many facts for you to handle?
"Damour 1972"? Sorry, it's 1976. Let me provide the c-o-n-t-e-x-t aka the Lebanese civil war: "The blockade of of the Palestinian camps in east Beirut [by the Maronite Christian Lebanese Forces] finally brought the main PLO forces into the conflict, a development which, as the Maronites should have foreseen, radically altered the balance of power. In order to relieve pressure on the large [Palestinian] camp at Tal Zaatar, the Palestinians sent reinforcements to help the [Lebanese] National Movement's offensive against the Maronite coastal districts south of Beirut...On 20 January [1976] Damour fell and, in retaliation for the massacres at Qarantina and Maslakh, many of its inhabitants were killed..." (Lebanon: The Fractured Country, David Gilmour p127) And don't get me wrong: I deplore massacres whoever perpetrates them, Palestinians, Lebanese, Israelis etc Mmm...wonder what those Palestinian refugee camps were doing in Beirut? But that only leads to a consideration of other massacres - of Palestinians by Israelis and you wouldn't be interested in that now, would you?
As for Jacob/Esau/God etc please spare me your Christian Zionist claptrap, I'm immune.

Dear Strewth....
Your a bit of a mystery in some ways.. (oh..b4 I forget ur right Damour was 76) you point to unending massacres by all sides, yet you seem to have a rabid if somewhat morbid clinging to the idea that somewhere in the midst of all this there is a 'good guy'.

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=7079
[On April 13th, 1975 at 1.15pm, Lebanon exploded. A single action that built on previous actions caused the whole country to go up in flames.
endquote]

If I'm not wrong, the single action which precipitated the above was the slaughter of 4 Christians, one of whom was a high ranking Maronite.
Now.. we can go hither and thither to try to find greater or lesser degrees of culpability, but the lesson of history which seems to be flying over your head is this.."This region has NEVER existed apart from the rule of 'rule or be ruled/kill or be killed'. You only have to read the Old Testament Exodus,Joshua,Judges,Samuel, Kings etc for a glimpse of this in vivid lexicolor.

So, I'll play the part of the 'negotiator'..'What, do you want' ?

I've gleaned that you seem to believe (Mistakenly) that the Arabs of the PLO and living in Palestine are 'indigenous' which is to deny 2000 yrs of history and its many layers, and raises the question 'at which point' do we decide 'it begins here' ?

Do you seriously hope or think that Israel will 'not be' ? That the Arabs booted out of Israel are going to gain the right to return ? That my friend is fairyland.

Christian Zionist 'claptrap' aside.. the question still remains.... where do 'you' stand before your creator ? While we can debate the issue of the place of Israel in 'last things' ..and lets be clear, some Christians totally reject the idea of a modern Israel figuring in the 'last things'. This doesn't change the issue of 'you'.

The problem of Palestine/Israel began not in 1948 but with the Fall, in Adam. It is solved 'in Christ' right here, right now in 2006.

Pericles, next post mate.

Dear Pericles,

The sermon on the mount, is quite central to the understanding of Gods Holiness, Love and Justice. All are dimensions of our Creator.

The teaching of Jesus, is as attainable as our willingness to turn "from" self and "to" God.

Outlining a framework of ethics which is by and large unattainable, may seem at first glance to lack purpose and point, "Why state it, if it cannot be reached" as you say. Why not focus on more acheivable ethics ? Indeed !.

We should remember one thing though, Jesus talked...and He also walked. As He spoke, so he also lived. Therefore it is 'in Him' ... as our lives are drawn under His Lordship and we are transformed by inner renewal, we become more like Him.

But note the difference between 'positional' righteousness and 'practical' righteousness. "Abraham believed God, and it was considered righteousness". We are saved by 'faith' not by the number of good deeds we do. The fruit of that faith must be the deeds.
Faith=> Renewal=> Deeds/actions.

The point of the Gospel and call of God in Christ is that of reconciliation, salvation, and our eternal destiny.

It means turning from a 'me' centred life to a 'Christ' centered life.

To be 'in Christ' means this: (from2Corinthians5)

17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

"Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come."

Charlotte Elliot 1835

Bd, “Jesus said "If your eye sins.. gouge it out, if your hand sins, cut it off".
"I feel the Lord is expressing in extreme language the divine standard of love and purity, but only 'in Him', can we even approach this let alone attain it. *hint*".

Well said, the lord was expressing the divine standard of love and purity in him. Cutting of hands, gouging out eyes. A perfect example of christian love and purity. I suppose your in a wheelchair using a machine to type for you in braile, owing to your lack of hands, feet and eyes. Or are you too pure to follow your messiahs laws. Is your *hint* related to being footless and fancy free, or that your not "in him" deep enough and can only recite in hope.

Booz, I know that self-criticism and religious flummery of the Christian Zionist variety are incapable of co-existence so I'll address myself to anyone else who may be reading this: "...the idea that somewhere in the midst of all [these massacres] there is a good guy"? Isn't this precisely his position with regard to the religious fantasy that Jews are a divinely chosen people? A harmless enough nonsense, of course, except for the corollary that non-Jews, not Booz of course, but those of 'Middle Eastern appearance' are only there to be trampled underfoot by said chosen ones. His theology is on a par with his grasp of history: "...the slaughter of 4 Christians, one of whom was a high ranking Maronite...precipitated [the Lebanese civil war]?". The massacre of a busload of Palestinians by the Maronite Kata'ib militia in April 1975, which was the immediate cause of the war, is completely disregarded by B because of his fixed belief that such people as Palestinians, whether Christian or Muslim, simply do not matter. Instead he focuses exclusively on a drive-by shooting (his "slaughter") by unknown gunmen of "four men, two of them members of the Kata'ib militia and one the bodyguard of Pierre Jumayyil [the Kata'ib leader]" (Crossroads to Civil War: Lebanon 1958-1976, Kamal Salibi p98), assuming the gunmen to have been Palestinians when they could just as easily have been rival Maronite militia/SSNP/Nasserites/ Lebanese Baathists/Druze militia/even Mossad agents - no one knows! Except Booz, the chosen one, of course. Then the chosen one lectures us that the right of return of "the Arabs booted out of Palestine [at least he's got that right]" in 1948 and 1967, enshrined in international law and UN resolution 194, is "fairyland", while trumpeting the 'divine right', based on biblical fairytales, of certain chosen New Yorkers, Chicagoans etc to 'return' to Palestine and push the natives around.

Well Strewth.. after all this banter, maybe its a good time to expose a bit of self here. It might assist in knowing where you are coming from. Me-Ancestry English/Scottish, about 4th gen Aussie. Conservative protestant evangelical by religious persuasion.

Re Lebanon's war.. I am aware of the attack on the bus, as the Maronites suspected (quite speculative I suppose) the gunmen were Palestinian. I wasn't deliberately ignoring it, but making the point of the 'actual' trigger.

One aspect you seem to be missing here, is that this problem has earlier precedents. The formation of Lebanon by the French was flawed.
They included some Shia provinces which tipped the demographic balance against the Maronites of Mt Lebanon, so if we are to blame someone perhaps we can blame the French for ill advised colonial practices.

If it were not the gunmen killing the 4 Maronites, or the Maronites killing the Palestinians in the bus, 'something' would have been like the proverbial spark in a tinderbox eventually. I suppose that was a war they 'had' to have, given that humans are not good at getting along and sharing with 'others'. What surprises me in all that goings on is that the Syrians were pretty much on the Maronites side, something I was not aware of until further reading recently.

On the UN resolution, u are forgetting what the UN 'is'. Its a power balance with a security council. 194 is a 'general assembly' resolution not a security council one. If the security council says jump, of course u say 'how high' if the GA says jump you say "hmm.. if I feel like it"

Your reference to 'International Law' I find lacking validity, mainly because it is all subject to the interests and power of the security council,
If you deny God as absolute authority, you are left with 'might is right' and most nations-states know this and act on it.
Personally I don't ever see a political solution to the problem, only a 'final' one. You need to delve into Genesis/Exodus etc right up to Revelation to appreciate why.

You're speaking to the hand, B.

Dear Stewth’s hand,

Up until AD70, the Israelites lived and ruled most of what is today described as Palestine, though during the peaks of David and Solomon’s kingdoms their rule extended considerably further.

70 Roman The Romans conquer Jerusalem
132-136 Roman Jewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty, rename area to "Palestine" **
351 Roman Jewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395 Turkish Palestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438 Turkish Empress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614 Iran Persian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628 Turkish "Palestine" reconquered by the Byzantines
633-637 Syrian Arab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639 Syrian Muawiyah Arab governor.
660 Syrian Muawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
661 Syrian Murder of Ali; Omayyad Dynasty begins.
750 Iraq Last Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persian, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).

Now, even during the time of the divided kingdom of Israel (“Samaria” and Judah), many ‘outsiders’ who came in and expressed a desire to intermarry with the Israelites, it is highly improbable that any Canaanites are left at all let alone identifiable.

Philistines (formerly from Phoenecia and Crete) are possibly still present in Gaza and maybe in Ashdod and Ashkelon which were traditionally ruled by Philistines during that period.

The bottom line, is that any idea of ‘indigenous’ people of Palestine is purely historical fantasy and would depend on which period one begins such an assessment.

Transmigration and economic opportunism by conquering powers is a standard characteristic of colonial activity, the idea that there is any Canaanite or pure ‘Palestinian’ (whatever that is) indigenous population is simply untenable.
I present Christ Jesus to you, Messiah, Lord, Redeemer, Savior and King. Seek citizenship in the kingdom of Heaven, be born again through repentance and faith in Him and be renewed in your mind and heart –“home” will be in Him, wherever u are

Bozo, You're no historian (Surprise, surprise! The Syrians were in bed with the Lebanese Maronites!), so don't go there. Look, it's really very simple: Palestine throughout history was always a melting pot and the present day Palestinian Arab population are the result of that melting pot. That is what makes them the indigenous population of Palestine. The present Ashkenazi settler population came from Europe quite recently and have about as much right to refer to themselves as indigenes as you or I have in relation to the aboriginal population of Australia. Hopefully, one day, the apartheid structures, based on an anachronistic ethno-religious exclusivism, that underpin the colonial-settler state called Israel will peacefully give way to the old Palestinian melting pot of yore. It happened in South Africa. It'll happen in Palestine. Not that any of this means anything to you of course. When's your rapture due?

Strewthy....

1/ 'BOZO'
2/ "You are no historian"

'a weak argument is usually accompanied by ad hominems' :)

I don't actually recall claiming to be a'Historian' in the formal sense, which I presume you are accusing me of not being..... ?

What I am, is an observer of history and current affairs and view them from the perspective I outlined in my bio I the last post.

Of course, while I am clearly 'biased' :) you are squeeky clean ...right ?

At least (and at long last) we are on the same PAGE..... agreeing now quite comfortably on one point.. that the area has been a melting pot for centuries.

But then you go off the rails.. claiming that the outcome of this melting pot is then the 'indigenous' population. Well, yes, as in the last physical manifestation of the melting process.

But here is where we differ. You seem to select that point of history as your reference, neglecting that this point itself and your chosen status quo is based on the very same power struggles which are going on right now.

You rail against the 'now' but you heroically support the 'then', yet they have the same foundation 'power stuggles'. I don't find any greater legitimacy of one over the other, in the philosophical sense.
Could it be that there is a litre or 2 of Arab Muslim blood flowing in your veins ? or ur married to one such person ? :) Or.. you just live in the lefty world of 'speaking much' but 'saying little' where the true agenda is nothing to do with that which you are verbose about. (I've been around moit)

So, given the above, you should have no 'moral' issue with my theological understanding of the unfolding of events. You might disagree with it, or roll around the floor laughing.. but thats ok, I'm not out to 'cause it' to happen, just to point to what I believe is.

Arguing against my view will not stop it happening if it is of God. The question is 'are you' (of Him) ?

Strewth,

If you don't like colonizing, you should go back to England (or wherever your ancesstors came from). You will find however, that anywhere people live today on earth, their ancesstors have at some stage colonized others. If that is wrong, then it is wrong for us to be alive.

Today, the ones who are most threatening to colonize and rule the world are the Arabs: they already declared their desire to include northern Australia in their Islamic state, but can you believe that once they have it, their Jihad would stop at that? or is it that you wish to be personally thrown into their one-directional lowest-common-denominator melting pot and replace the Australian way of live - however you may consider it deficient, with theirs, this Lebanease violent chaos you were just discussing, who cares how it started?

Well, I guess you would not be happy to see the Arabs marching into Australia with their green Jihad banners, "convert to Islam or die", but you probably think "what the heck, it will not be in my generation".

I can understand that you could not care less about those for whom the Arab-Islamic danger is more imminent, that you cannot perceive them as civilized modern people and families like us who deserve to live and so you would rather happily sacrifice them to gain a few more years of comfortable lifestyle here.

Nevertheless, those who are in imminent danger know how to protect themselves on their own, even without your help, and they will continue doing so despite your cowardice. They guard your front lines for you while you throw tomatoes at them: it may make them dirty and red, but they will end up with your tomato juice.

BTW, your assumption as if Israel's existence is "based on an anachronistic ethno-religious exclusivism" is completely misguided. Yes, there is a minority there who thinks this way, but they definitely did not make it in last week's elections. The majority are people who just want to live their lives peacefully.

Bozwaz (I'm sorry, can't help my dyslexia), you say that you're "an observer of history and current affairs" when you're really a distorter, misrepresenter and stuffer up (eg 395AD-Turkish Palestine??) of same. I assume that what you mean by "last physical manifestation of the melting process" is the colonization of Palestine by Zionist settlers from Europe. However, that has nothing to do with any genuine sharing of the place with the indigenous people, but with expelling, excluding and oppressing them. And by any standards of decency that's not acceptable to me. You're one hell of a muddle-headed guy, but muddle-headedness doesn't even begin to explain the sheer primitive idiocy of your statement: "Could it be that there is a litre or 2 of Arab Muslim blood flowing in your veins?" As though a concern for the underdog somewhere depends on one sharing the underdog's blood! I oppose Indonesia's colonization of West Papua, so I must have a litre or 2 of West Papuan blood? And tell me, Bozo, what the hell is "Muslim blood" and how does it differ from any other blood? If I were an Anglo of Muslim faith would I require a blood transfusion? And to answer your last question, no, if you are of "Him" then I am not of "Him".

My goodness Strewth *puts on the counselling garb*....

Turkish.. in 395= modern name for Asia Minor/Byzantine empire.

"Muslim blood" a clear reference to the possibility of you having more than a simple 'ethical' connection to and interest in the issue.

Underdog ? You have a point. Yuyutsu also has a compelling one, regarding all our ancestors which underlines your selective nature of sympathy. For me, you should be both outraged at and sympathetic for, because my ancestors were subject to the 'Highland Clearances' in Scotland, (thats the sympathy one) but I am here on land from which Aboriginal people were dispossessed from (Outrage).

In fact, one family just down the road are descended from the original settlers in this area. What about 'you' ? do you by any chance live on land from which indigenous Australians have been dispossessed from ? Your calls for justice for the Palestinians would ring a lot less hollow if you had already returned all the land (if any) you currently own and live on to the Aboriginals of your area. I'm sure with a bit of effort you could find them.

So, in conclusion you should be outraged at the Israelies, at me, and finally at yourself, for the same sins.

I struggle with the issue of land use, and ownership here in Australia, and I would love to find a way of reconciling with the Indigenous people of Melbourne for the many wrongs done to them by 'whites'. Perhaps when my existence is less hand to mouth, day by day survival I'll devote more time to this.

I don't know why your are so passionate about what is happening in Israel/Palestine, when there are so many unjust things happening much closer to home. Any explanation ? Perhaps you just hate Jews ?

Personally, I don't find much value in identifying with nationalism per se, because it is fraught with all the machievellian evils we are all too aware of. The limit of my 'nationalism' would be for survival but certainly not for teritorial gain. I'm amibivalent about our E.Timor plans on this basis.

Booz, Turkey/Byzantium - it's all one big blur to you, terminating with the Big Bang of Armageddon, right? Now, down to basics. Your ignorance of the difference between the current circumstances of indigenous Australians and that of indigenous Palestinians is as profound as your religious beliefs are shallow. Let me spell it out for you: Australian indigenes, although generally economically disadvantaged and subjected to racism by some Australians, are NOT a)subject to apartheid legislation as is the Palestinian Arab population of Israel; b)under military occupation as is the Palestinian Arab population of the West Bank; c) stateless as are the Palestinian Arab refugees. Your profound ignorance of these people also extends to falsely assuming that the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homeland will automatically be at the expense of the non-indigenous Jewish population. As with South Africa, Israel's inclusion of the Palestinian Arab refugees as full and equal citizens within its borders would turn it from an exclusionary and discriminatory Jewish state for Jews the world over into a binational state for all of its citizens, Jews, Christians, Muslims, whatever. Not that that would mean anything to you as it would interfere with your religious fantasies. And please spare us the hypocrisy of your "struggling with the issue of land ownership here in Australia". Such things have never been on your agenda, Bozo. The "Muslim blood" bit was low, but the "perhaps you just hate Jews" is lower still. So for you, the only possible basis for supporting Palestinian rights is if you've got Muslim blood or you're an anti-Semite? Is that it? Your views are beneath contempt.

Strewth, you ignore one simple fact:

Arabs have no interest in living together with Jews, except as a temporary tactical rhetoric to render them helpless so that subsequently they can be killed or expelled like the Christians of the West Bank.

It is most important for Arabs to preserve their culture without outside influences just as it is important for the Israelis to preserve their own culture (although Israeli culture is overall more modern and blended with European culture). Who are you to ask to force both people to give up their lifestyle in favour of some western melting-pot of your imagination?

Arab leaders declared many times their intention to throw all Jews into the sea. They have sided with Hitler in the past and there is no reason to stop believing them now, and Islam would never tolerate the existence of "infidels" in the middle east, except as an underclass called "Dhimmis" (who are humiliated, overtaxed, unequal by law, must wear identifying garments, and it is allowable for Moslems to kill them from time to time for fun).

To your comparison:

a) There are over a million Arabs living in Israel: they are full Israeli citizens and not discriminated against or subject to any appartheid despite the inclination of a significant number of them to undermine the state. They are well represented in the Israeli parliament.

b) Israel is not interested in occupying Arab areas and has attempted several times, and is still trying, to lift its military occupation of Arab population in the west-bank and Gaza. In fact there are currently no Israelis whatsoever in the Gaza strip (perhaps journalists). The problem is that the Arabs would not allow it, and use those territories to launch terror and missile attacks on Israel, forcing Israel to re-enter again and again.

c) The Palestinians could have a state long ago and are free to declare statehood any day - Israel offered it to them, but they don't want it because it will make them responsible for their aggressions and would interfere with their dream to own the whole country.

Onya Strewthy....
long on huff and puff (with a bit of bile mixed in).. long on character assassination and insult (booz ? I'll add that one to my growing list :) but short on actual content/response.

I'd almost call that a skillful way of avoiding the tough question if it was not so obvious mate..

My questions about a biological connection or anti semitism are quite valid and constitute exploring your possible motivation re the Palestinian issue.

By the way, I'm married to an indigenous person from Borneo, who's people have been and are subject to many of the same land issues the Palestinians are experiencing.

Let me list some important questions requiring serious answers.

1/ Do YOU currently live on land which was taken from Aboriginals ?
2/ If yes, don't you think this might detract from your 'holy rage' ?

You point out various differences between Aboriginals and Palestinians, but then, you leap to 'They can all live happily ever after'...which.. well, to put it mildly would be a 'first' for tribes in most areas, but in that area it would border on the miraculous.

Things might be ok for a while, but you are fogetting:

a) The Hamas charter which sees ALL that land under Islamic rule.
b) The huge difference in fertility between Arabs and Jews
c) The inevitable consequence of a) and b) above.

Donna Jacobs on another thread speaks about 'stories'. One biblical one which fully explains the situation between Arabs and Jews is that of Abraham and Lot. Gen 12

"And Abraham and Lots herdsmen began to fight, because of lack of pasture for both their flocks"

That is "it" in a nutshell. You can never avoid this. When Abraham gave Lot the choice of land, he chose the BEST (and he saw that all the Jordan valley was fertile and chose that).
Abraham is the exception, people tend to view life thru their own tribal/cultural/family eyes, as did Lot while Abraham trusted God would work it out.

I can't see the Jews or Arabs today are any different from Lot.

What's up, Yuyu, feeling left out? A fabulous farrago of fables, fella. Let's choose an oldie but a goldie. How about: "Arab leaders declared many times their intention to throw all Jews into the sea." Document it. I particularly enjoyed the fable about Israel, heroically "trying to lift its military occupation of Arab population in the west-bank [sic] and Gaza" but forced to remain there by "the Arabs" who have nothing better to do [Must be that Muslim blood!] than "use those territories to launch terror and missile attacks on Israel" while simultaneously "threatening to colonize the world" and preparing to march "into Australia with their green Jihad banners", crying "convert to Islam or die!" I hope you're checking under your bed day and night, Yuyu. No? They may already be there!
And dear old Bamboozle: I'm shocked.Shocked! You mean you're actually "married to one such [Borneoan] person" with land problems, but can't get up enough "holy rage" on her behalf? But I guess if you're stuck out there in La La Land with Lot, Abraham, Jacob and Esau that'd be the last thing on your 'mind'.

Strewth,

I am glad that you enjoy reading my post.

Here are some references about "throwing the Jews to the sea".

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
http://www.travelbrochuregraphics.com/extra/new_fellow_traveling.htm
http://www.netanyahu.org/eyeonmedcnni.html
http://www.isracast.com/Transcripts/territories_trans.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Evolver_of_Borg/Draft_Article
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/what-the-fight-in-israel-is-all-about.htm

Perhaps not all Palestinians want to throw the Jews to the sea. I am sure many of them would prefer to have a life over sending terrorists and rockets across the border, but only a few would dare to say that in public for fear of their and their families' life, because in their brute-oriented society it is only the extremists that can dictate policy.

Israel also has its share of extremists - but they are a minority and unlike the Arabs, Israel is a true democracy and in last week's elections the people of Israel have stated clearly their intent to not wait any longer, but withdraw from the Palestinian areas even without Palestinian consent or a peace agreement. Time would tell to what extent Israel will be allowed to withdraw this time, or are the Arabs going to force it back into those cursed territories once again in self-defence.

You did however ignore my main point, that while those two people do not wish to live together, you are trying to impose the 'superior' Australian model of cultural "melting pot" on both people who wish to continue preserving and living by their culture and heritage. Isn't this a subtle form of colonialism?

Yuyu...welcome back :)

Strewth... of course you realize that if I post enough you will run out of variations on my nick and start to repeat yourself :)

Hey.. you rip into Ted for not answering your questions but you are not answring MINE..

Repeated for allllll to see.

QUESTION 1
"do you, or do you not, live now in land which was formerly Aboriginal" ?

Regarding my wifes situation. Her people have lost pretty much all their traditional land, with the exception of around a mile either side of the waterways, and a distance 'one days walk' from existing land. The politicians (Muslims) with the help of the rich Chinese (who they are in bed with) share the spoils of stolen indigenous land by first taking the Timber, then planting large Oil palm plantations on the denuded land.

There are trade off's though. The country is pretty peaceful and stable and there is an increasing sense of national pride even among the indigenous. I tend to agree with their idea of a 'guided' democracy.

But Strewthy.. I'm a little concerned for u.. most of your posts are just woffle now, kinda emotive throw away lines..

Another question.. repeated again...

QUESTION 2

Do you really think the Muslim Arabs can live peacefull and happily under Israeli rule enjoying citizenship and equality ? given the fertility rates and nature of democracy ?
Are you not realllly saying 'Let them back to they can breed and vote Israel into Dhimmitude' ?

Sure sounds like it.

Romans 13 describe the role of the Emperor as a deterrant to the evildoer. Sometimes the Emporer IS the evildoer. Yes, sorting out humanity is not easy.

The Orthodox Jews may not be 'many' but politically/spiritually they are 'much'. The heart of Israel is Jerusalem. It runs too deep to deny this. We will all see how things pan out.

Not so fast, Yuyu. Asked to document an assertion, you do a google and come up with a gaggle of Zionist hasbara/hate sites. Document means in this case: Which Arab leaders said it? When? And where is it publicly recorded? (As in books/documents) "Those cursed territories" eh? How stupid of your Zionist heroes to have grabbed onto them in the first place and hung onto them for sooo long. Now, you seem to have, among others, a bee in your bonnet about the expression 'melting pot', but if you'd done your homework (ie read my earlier posts) you'd have seen it was a reference to Palestine down the centuries. Still, do you have a problem with Australia as a melting pot? Should Bozzles not have taken a Borneoan bride? Is your "heritage" or your blood so special it must not be contaminated? Who should we kick out now? Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your reference to "the 'superior' Australian model of cultural 'melting pot'"? Let's import the superior Israeli model then. Who'll be top-dog? Who'll be underdog? Who'll be occupied? Who'll be expelled? I see Bozzles is clamouring for my attention: was Australia "formerly Aboriginal"? Absolutely! Is it now an apartheid state based on a division in law between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people? No. Are Aboriginals gunned down by the military/impeded by checkpoints/walled off/routinely tortured etc etc ? No. Bozo's perspective on his wife's people: robbed blind of their land, but hey, they've got "peace and stability". I wonder if he preaches to her how well off they are? I wonder if how Bozo would feel if he were dispossessed by some nice folks on a mission from God? And here's his second question: "Do you really think Muslim Arabs can live peacefully and happily under Israeli rule enjoying citizenship and equality"? Define "Israeli rule"? Apartheid state, as in Israel proper, or military rule as in the occupied territories?

Strewth,

Australia is Australia and Israel is Israel, there is nothing wrong with either having its own lifestyle, one as a melting pot - the other as uni-cultural.

It is true that Israel fell into this territory-trap in 1967: on the one hand Israel was attacked from there and had no choice but to temporarily conquer those territories to drive away the attacking armies, but it could and should have left them long ago. It is also true that while Israel's primary motive for staying in the territories was security, later came along extremist religious groups that took advantage of Israel's weak government to hijack those territories for their own purpose, eventually forcing the Israeli army deeper into that swamp to protect those initially-illegal settlements.

You should have no mistake that the majority of Israeli citizens hate those settlements and are struggling for Israel to get out, but it is not easy, does not happen overnight and lately brought Israel to the brink of a civil war.

The Arabs however, seem to rejoice about Israel's entrapment: their leaders are happy to sacrifice the ordinary Palestinians and care not for their suffering (just as they cared not in 1948 when they turned them into refugees), because it gives them browny points in their propaganda war against Israel, to which you fell prey yourself. Every time Israel attempts to pull out, they create new obstacles because they do not wish to lose the advantage of being looked as "oppressed victims".

Despite the fact that I oppose the occupation of Gaza & West Bank by Israel, so long as only the Israeli military was there, before the settlers came and messed up with their provocations, the Palestinians in the territories, both Moslems and Christians, experienced more prosperity and comfort than ever before or after. I really pity those still under Israeli occupation: East-Jerusalemites, especially Armenians, once Israel leaves.

Also, Arabs in Israel proper enjoy full and equal civil rights (perhaps more because they are not obliged to serve in the army, but those who do receive the same privilleges as Jews who do).

Dear Strewth......
the insults are still mounting...and the 'quality' of your posts is deteriorating into cyclic drivle mate.... I asked you the specific question about your current abode, "WHO'S LAND WAS IT" and you come back to me with 'apartied this, checkpoint that'..

You STILL have not answered it.

So, it casts serious credibility problems on all your posts. You keep coming back and back to a 'baddddd Israel this and that' to the point where one might take it that you cannot see the connection between 'wall's and 'prevention of murderous bombers'... which of course means we need to do some unravelling of your bigger position. Lets see where it leads and you can correct me where I diverge from reality.

1/ "Walls are BAD... (but what about homicide bombers?)
2/ 'Martyrs would not NEED to use such methods if the Israelies would leave 'occupied lands'.
3/ Israelies left Gaza and demolished settlements, and STILL the dogs send rockets at Israel using GAZA as a base !
4/ Oh..thats because they are still in the OTHER occupied lands.. West Bank etc...
5/ Does this change the fact that 'a little withdrawal' did not produce 'less attacks' ?
6/ So.. clearly if Israel left the West Bank, the Arabs would be happy ....right ? WRONG ! They would continue to attack until Jerusalem is in Islamic hands.
7/ All the other stuff you go on about is just window dressing. You need to really just focus on Jerusalem and solve that, you solve the lot.
8/ Hamas charter is clear enough and not ambiguous. They want 100% Islamic rule. Sorry, that is not going to happen, so why not get over it and try to make a new and peaceful life ?
9/ Annoy Israel 'enough' and they will forget the UN, the USA and simply ethnically cleanse the whole of the Palestinians.

Wifes land... they do ok :) Wet rice instead of slash/burn primary jungle. Timber companies dug out wet rice fields for them.

Yuyu, ethnic cleansing, mass expulsion, mass theft of property, military occupation, apartheid legislation etc is a "lifestyle"? "Uni-cultural"? Based on the dispossession and exclusion of its indigenous Palestinian population. Falling into a "territory-trap"? 67 was a preemptive war by Israel and recognised by every member state of the UN as such, including the US. Israel "could/should have left them long ago." Refreshing honesty for once. You're not totally iredeemable like Bazooka, thank god. "Extremist religious groups took advantage of Israel's weak government (sic) [I'm sure the Palestinians would disagree with you about that.] to hijack those territories"? Bozbaz won't like that! Still, you're in denial there. Israel's playpens for religious nutters couldn't possibly have happened without the unstinting backing of every Israeli govt since 67, especially that of Rabin, Bibi, Barak and Sharon. And anyway, why not just pull out the army and leave the settlers to their own devices? Would you have a problem with this? Incidentally, given your opposition to the "cursed occupation", did you ever lift a finger to oppose it? OK, don't listen to me on 48. Try reading Israeli historian, Benny Morris' The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Benevolent occupation? An oxymoron. As for the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel (your Israeli Arabs) can I refer you to Susan Nathan's The Other Side of Israel. She was a Zionist until her blinkers fell off. Happy reading. PS How are you going with your documenting?

Strewth,

I don't have all day to dispute each malicious argument you put forth. I think I made my position quite clear:

1. Israel has a right to live and remain a Jewish state, maintaining its unique culture within the 1949-1967 borders.
2. Arabs would never accept the existence of a non-Arab/non-Moslem state in the middle east (and with less impatience, anywhere in the world).
3. While Israel is to remain a Jewish state, those Arabs living in Israel should continue having full human and civil rights as individuals and as communities. If there were any shortcomings in that, they should be corrected! (yet caution must be used since unfortunately some of those Arabs are hostile to the state, identifying with its enemies and more likely to create or support terror than their Jewish counterparts).
4. The majority of Israelis do not wish to stay in the West Bank and already brought about the withdrawal from Gaza. They want to live their life peacefully, having nothing - good or bad, to do with the Arabs.
5. Israelis have a long internal struggle with a violent extremist minority among them that wants to continue occupying territories for reasons which the majority do not believe in or agree with.
6. Although most Israelis, including the newly elected governing parties, do not want to hold onto those cursed territories, Israel is not stupid to withdraw when it is likely to significantly threaten its security - it would rather check the water first, and will not give up doing so, but so far, following withdrawals terror has increased rather than decreased (bringing victory to and encouraging the extremist minority!).

Now tell me which, if any, of the above statements you do not agree with.

...Why not just pull out the army and leave the settlers to their own devices? because they are strong, represented in the army itself, have too many supporters who will create a civil war, and with the army out, would flock into the West Bank killing every Arab in a few days, and Israel would be held responsible...

Yuyu, "Malicious argument"? Why so paranoid and blinkered in the face of facts and reason?
1)Disagree a) because it's only (majority) Jewish because created at the expense of 4 million non-J refugees still stateless and dispersed; b) because a non-Jew will always be a second class citizen in a Jewish state just as a non-Muslim will be a second class citizen in an Islamic state.
2)Why should they accept a state based on their dispossession and politicide? Secular, democratic, binational state of its citizens, why not?
3)Read Susan Nathan's new book before blindly asserting this.
4)Agree. However, it's plainly unrealistic to expect not to have anything to do with the natives if you colonise their country. Be honest, Yuyu, you'd really prefer they just vanish now wouldn't you? You simply cannot accept them as full human beings equal to yourself.
5)Full credit to the Israeli peace movement for all their efforts, especially those Israelis resisting the illegal Annexation Wall. What have you done to oppose [the] "violent extremist minority" or are all of your energies devoted to demonising "the Arabs"?
6) Here we go again: crimes against humanity/ethnic cleansing/occupation justified by the mantra of "security", yet never have Israelis been less secure. Go figure.
Last paragraph: you've saved your best joke for last. The Israeli Occupation Forces remain in the West Bank to protect the Palestinians from the settlers! And the moon is made of green cheese.

Strewth,

1a) With a bit of good-will, problems like refugees can and could be solved long-ago: though-I-have-much-to-say I'll-not-waste-my-350-words-on-that. The crux of the matter is that you do not agree with the existence of an independent Jewish state, I guess not even if it were on a piece of land the size of a postal-stamp.

1b) Druze, Cherkesians and Christian Arabs are first-class citizens of Israel and so are those Moslems who do not support terror or seek Israel's destruction.

2. Funny concept: first eagerly accept the money, then cry "disposession"...
The Jews bought the lands of Israel and created their state in order to have a Jewish state, not a binational one. Sorry, but when buying your house, only you decide whom to invite and the ground-rules.

3. As I said, if any shortcomings were made, they should be corrected.

4. Yes, nobody expects it, yet Israel would like to have the minimum possible to do with its hostile neighbours rather than the maximum. It could be different had the Arabs not been so hostile (but that is plainly unrealistic).

5. Don't mistake Israel's mainstream peace movement with the few anarchists opposing the wall. I do not like its location and believe that the wall should have been along the 1967 borders, but I understand (as Israel's government stated) that it is only temporary and the best compromize Israel could do for the time-being without incurring a civil war with the settlers. The wall is there ONLY to prevent terrorism and quite effective at that (perhaps to your regret).

6) crimes or no crimes: had you lived in such hostile environment, surrounded by hundreds of millions who wish to take your life, you would have done at least the same for your security.

The Israeli army remains in the West Bank predominantly to prevent terror and rocket attacks. Among other side-effects, yes, their presence and the fact that the government is mostly in control (there are some settlements such as Yitzhar, where the army is afraid to enter!), prevent the settlers from hurting Palestinian civilians more than they already do.

Still wrestling with your demons, Yuyu? Your last and previous posts indicate an unreconstructed Zionist framework, immune to criticism or doubt, informed by no more moral or intellectual depth than that provided by Zionist propaganda and hate sites such as masada2000; support for a Jewish state regardless of the cost to non-Jews and regardless of how contrary to universal human values such an ethno-theocratic concept is; an inability to even acknowledge the people it has displaced, the PALESTINIANS, as human beings, let alone as having national rights - they're all just dismissed as "Arabs" and worse, "Arab Muslims", despite the fact that Palestinian Muslims and Christians face the same Zionist bulldozer which has never stopped blazing a trail of death and destruction since 1948, culminating in the atrocity of the Annexation Wall and the ghettoisation of Palestinian communities in the West Bank; an unrelenting demonisation of the Palestinians who are one minute marching on Australia, the next issuing blood-curdling threats about driving the Jews into the sea (still undocumented by you), a bogey-man designed to cover your unwillingness to acknowledge your heroes' role in dominating and dispossessing these people; and an unshakeable, reflexive default position that, when all other arguments have been exposed as threadbare, political Zionism's litany of crimes can still be justified on security grounds. And you are comfortable with that, Yuyu? If that is all one hell of a burden for you, think what it must be like for the poor bloody Palestinians whose only crime was to be living in Palestine when Herzl's nightmare came and knocked on their doors. Yuyu, you don't have to be part of this.

YuYu
looks like strewth has run and ducked for cover from my challenge about WHO'S LAND he currently lives on......

'Attack is the greatest form of defense.'

Yuyu gives reasonable questions, and no sooner are they out of her mouth, than 'GodsTruth' (meaning of 'Strewth' but in this case 'Mans distortions’) is leaping down her throat.

"Crimes since 1948" so, presumably you regard the very existence of Israel as an obnoxious insult to Arabs . Lets say I'm wrong, and that you just mean 'the crimes' part of the establishment, what do you consider crimes ? "Anything which negatively effects Arabs" ?

1/ I have demonstrated that your idea of 'Indigenous' Palestinians being descendants of the Canaanites was a total fallacy, then you retreated to 'Melting pot'....

2/ I showed that existing population (in agreement with your melting pot idea) was based on conflict and power, and the SAME type of events which are occurring before our eyes, and you retreat to 'BUT ISRAEL=CRIMINAL' (More criminal than previous power players in the area ? like the Romans,Persians,Ottomans ?)

3/ I charge you with Hypocrisy and living on stolen land YOURSELF and you ignore this, preferring to attack Yuyu who gives unemotional and reasonable responses.

Yuyu... its pretty clear that what we are dealing with here is a person who is uninterested in any position which would not result in all Israelites being re-dispersed and Arabs re-stealing the land. (Romans, Persians,Arabs,Turks etc, till today)

It won’t matter how well you document the various incidents, Strewth is not interested in facts except those which justify his own position. He cares as much for Israelies as he charges them of caring for Arabs. He is the pot calling the kettle ‘black’.

Sending people back to places from which they or their ancestors came (when they took over stolen land) i.e. Arabs is not a crime, it is the putting right of a crime of history. Same as Mugabbe re-taking land stolen by whites. When the police take a valuable painting you ‘own’ which was previously ‘stolen’ do we charge them with theft ?

Interesting position, Boaz.

>>Sending people back to places from which they or their ancestors came (when they took over stolen land) i.e. Arabs is not a crime, it is the putting right of a crime of history. Same as Mugabbe re-taking land stolen by whites.<<

How far back shall we take this restrospective score-settling? Past 1788, I hope, so that we can do the right thing and give this wide brown land back to its rightful owners.

Of course, when you get back to Scotland (where would you suggest your wife should go, by the way?) you will probably be better able to understand the fundamental economics of the Highland Clearances, since undoubtedly you will be joined by all those similarly dispossessed. Most records indicate that the majority went to “the colonies” (those who didn't hop across to Ireland and start the same sort of chaos over there), so there will be a large group of people back in their “motherland”.

But perhaps you were being ironic?

It is difficult to tell sometimes.

“Sending people back” has never been, and never will be, a solution to anything. What is needed is some form of tolerance and understanding of the plight of people not quite so well-blessed in their birthplace or their economic circumstances, and perhaps the tendency to “love thy neighbour" in just a little bit more practical fashion.

Perhaps we should build a religious movement on that precept, Boaz. How about it?

Boaz,

Thanks for the support, but it is problematic to base Israel's right to exist on the bible, because that would require Israel to be a strictly religious state (and one side-effect would be denying civil-rights from any non-Jews), which it is not, and every time Israel sins and break the Law (which is human and common) - their rights for the land can be suspended again.

Strewth, it is the Arab leaders who cause their own people's nightmare. Israel was always considerate, generous and forgiving towards Arabs, before its formation and after (of course as in any human society there were from time to to time individual bad apples - which should be rightly brought to justice), but Israel also knows how to defend itself when necessary. All the Arabs needed, and still need if they wanted or still want to stop the suffering of their "Palestinians", is to stop attacking Israel, or even better - not have attacked Israel in the first place. It is as simple as that. The more tantrums they throw about the very existence of the state of Israel, which they do not accept, the more unnecessary suffering they inflict upon themselves.

Pericles... I was making the point to Strewth, that you in fact underline, -basically human situations are based on power/might etc, not concepts of justice as he seems to be pushing.
He is going to unending ends, to justify the plight and victimhood and 'rightness' of the Arabs returning to former villages etc, and I'm saying that they have as much (or little) right as all of us to our former ancestral homes. The deciding factor in all of it is simple- 'might may not be 'right', but it sure counts and sways the issue'.

The only reason some aboriginal activists do not 'hunt our sorry asses down' and chase us back overseas is that they don't have the means.

Yuyu
I take your point about the Biblical right to the land, but your mention of the loss of that right when Israel sinned is not exactly true. During the Old Testament time they had the 'Day of Atonement' which dealt with that aspect. They were exiled/punished only when things had become so bad, that the nation as a whole had departed from the covenant relationship. e.g. high places, fertility/gods and symbols, temple cult prostitutes etc. Rotten from the king down to the street sweeper kind of thing. But note, (2 chronicles 7.13)
Also Isaiah 40 1-5 etc.. Jeremiah 31:31 (please read these)

Human rights.

The O.T. was most generous to 'the Alien/foreigner' and there were laws to protect them. The only thing they could not do was intermarry and enter the holy place. They could also embrace Yahweh and become Israelites by conversion.

I have no doubt that Israel would take whatever measures needed to ensure that they could never be 'democratically' dispossessed, and this would always be a bone of contention to those not identifying with the idea of Israel's right to exist.

It would inevitably mean at some stage the transferrance/exile of significant elements of the population or barring them from voting, due to the relatively high fertility rates of Arabs compared to Jews.

HR could only 'work' with politically insignificant pockets of non Jews in Israel.

Yuyu, allow me to quote Samuel Johnson's wise words: "Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labour; even supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it." Please meditate on that. Then, as it sinks in, go, as I have already advised, to a bookshop and purchase The Other Side of Israel by (Jewish Israeli) Susan Nathan. Read it and THEN make up your mind on the matters we've discussed. And remember, with friends like Bamboozle, who needs enemies. Cheers.

So it goes that the wolf and the sheep lived in the forest by the same stream.

One day the wolf came down to the sheep and told it:
W: "You are polluting my water"
S: "this cannot be because you live upstream and I live downstream"
W: "so what?"
S: "then my pollutants can only travel further away and not towards you.
W: "why?"
S: "well, there is a force of gravity: here Newton explains that it is proportional to the masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance, and since the closest and heaviest object is the earth, which center is this way, and since the stream slopes this way towards it, then the water accelerates only this way at a rate of 9.8 metres/second^2 times the sine of the streams' slope".
W (who previously seemed to know nothing of physics): Oh, but this force only applies to the center of gravity, and because water is a liquid where particles are not affixed to that center, it is still possible for some smaller drops that circle around it to flow the other way."
S: "but in this case, here are a couple of waterfalls between us, and no drop of water can flow up through them"
W: "'nough talking, I'm going to eat you up and not leave one bit, RIGHT NOW"

At this point, the sheep pulled an Uzi, and the wolf cried:

"GOOD PEOPLE, HELP!! I AM DISPOSESSED: this evil sheep is trying to deprive my poor children of their breakfast".

I see. "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." Sad.

Yuyutsu,

"the sheep pulled an Uzi, and the wolf cried"

Let try your logic:

* The sheep took the wolf's land and gave it to the settlers, ensuring new conflicts will all following generations.
* The sheep is unable to define his borders. Suffering split personality disorder, once the land follows secular legal borders, the other follows religious biblical ones.
* The sheep have secretly manufactured enough nukes to take all wolves, lions and associated forests.

Some magic sheep that is, I would say the least of his wonders is pulling the Uzi!.

Hi F.H. good to see your cogent input here.. Strewth is more like someone straight out of 'Terrorist school' in a Paki Madrassah.. Yuyu at least speaks with less emotive tones.

Your observations are at least practical.. and u also make the point I've been laboring. "Might may not make right, but it does tend to define things".

hope all is well with you mate... and your family if you have one.
Cheers. "me"

Dear Fellow_Human:

Wow, now you are already telling us the sequel...

Well true, meeting the wolf in these circumstances was quite traumatic and the sheep has not yet fully regained its composure after the rush of adrenalin activating the fight-or-flight instinct. It still suffers some confusion that includes difficulties defining its borders and post traumatic disorder, but the overall prognosis is quite good and the doctors agree that the sheep is making a miraculous recovery, will eventually get well and that its health could have been much worse had it not possess the Uzi and nukes and been swallowed by the wolf, yet they still request to limit visiting to the minimum at this point in time to allow the patient to rest and assist in its full recovery.

Time for a reality check folks. The 'sheep', possessed of "uzi & nukes", is a wolf (despite the best efforts of the Propagandists of Zion to persuade the world otherwise). And you bet it wants "limited visiting hours at this point in time". What wolf wants the eyes of the world's media on it while it gets on with its "full recovery" of other people's land.

Thanks Boaz,

Yuyutsu,

Lets keep the political sensitive crap out and call it for what it is. Because they are the strongest (and had been for 3 decades) Israelis hold the keys to fix the problem and a good start was what Sharon initiated: the Gazza pull out.

The rubbery borders policy depends immensly on the strength of your opponent which I find interesting, do you accept international laws at all or you are too 'well connected' to obey laws?

Zionism helped Israel establish itself but time to seriously rethink
if it the right horse for the 21st century.

So far the 'bad mad arab stories' is leading to HAMAS and Ahmedinejad.

All the best to the sheeps and the wolves, there is a good movie called 'face off'. You should watch it sometimes.

Fellow Human, good to hear from you again!

What makes you think that Israel is the strongest?
it is true that Israel has the best weapons and trained army, but:
1. Israeli society is torn within - anything too drastic can cause a civil war.
2. Israel lacks strategic depth as its area is a fraction of its surrounding enemies.
3. A democracy cannot act as decisively as non-democracies.
4. As a mostly affluent, 1st-world country, people are less willing to make sacrifices and incur losses than those who have nothing to lose.

I would therefore say that Israel holds only half the keys and cannot go it alone. I am encouraged by the withdrawal so far, but seeing it realistically, the road ahead is still long.

I do support following iternational law in most cases (but not to the point of suicide).

[Zionism helped Israel establish itself but time to seriously rethink
if it the right horse for the 21st century.]

Call it what you want, does it matter? the fact is that Israel is no longer an experiment: there are generations living there, who want to preserve their unique culture and character rather than assimilate within the Arab/Moslem world (or live among them as Dhimmis).

More retrograde Zionist tribalism, Yuyu. "I do support...international law BUT"... only if and when it suits me and my tribe. Which aspects of international law would you discard? National "suicide"/ living as a "dhimmi": pathetic excuses for avoiding sharing Palestine with non-Jews. Whatever way you cut it, Zionism reduces to 'us and them', to racism and apartheid.

Well Strewth, you must have already anticipated my response:

Why don't you pick up drunk aboriginies from the streets, share your own home (including the kitchen, the bed, the bathroom, the carpets, the car, etc.) with them and let them decide how to run your household? is it fair that you keep your house just for yourself and your family?

I will wait for your honest answer: "why should I? - their brothers aint got oil"

By the way, Israel is already sharing its country with over a million Arabs (almost 20%) and "Palestine" with another 2.5 millions (and I have not even mentioned other non-Jews). Generally, Israel should be happy to share with anyone who wants to live by its culture and character on friendly terms, but that is not what your friends the "Palestinians" aspire.

Should those "Palestinians" ever get a majority in Israel, the next day the country will be annexed to Arab countries and you will never hear the word "Palestinian" again, which was all along just a propaganda slogan that not even the "Palestinians" Arabs believe in.

Is this a reflection of Australia's "Multicultural student program?"

And "One" cannot help, to not want to be a "victim" in blind faith and circumstance where you are fed to the lions for your belief and the example to others.

OK, Yuyu, let's take it one step at a time. Would it be safe to assume that among your current neighbours, friends, colleagues etc there are non-Jews and that it's not too stressful sharing your suburb, life, workplace etc with them? Yes? If that's the case here then, why can't it be the case in Palestine?

Strewth,

I even have Arab Moslem friends, but we are not talking about individuals here, nor does Israel have a problem with individual Arabs and has in fact been quietly over the years accepting many Arab refugees who proved that they only want to resettle in Israel in their private capacity (it is their Arab brothers though that consider them traitors because of preferring their own lives over the the national Arab cause of defeating Israel).

If an Arab individual proves that he does not partake in the Arab plan to throw the Jews to the sea (or any other variation such as so kindly sparing their lives and "returning" them to Europe), has no interest in undermining the [Jewish] culture and character of Israel and does not support terror, but just wants to take care of his own family, home, business, etc. and be a good citizen of the Jewish state, then Ahalan Wasahalan (=welcome in Arabic). Sadly, that's a minority.

Yuyu, I "even have Arab Moslem friends." Wow! So they're OK as individuals, but too many and their hands reach compulsively for their knives, eh? But what really interests me is your statement that "Israel...has in fact been quietly over the years accepting many Arab refugees who proved that they only want to resettle in Israel in their private capacity..." Hmmm, that's a one I haven't heard before. Please, please direct me to a source for this extraordinary claim. And you're still banging on about "the Arab plan to throw Jews into the sea"? Remember when I asked you to document that? Still waiting.

And what about the exiled Christians from the two Christian Villages of Ecret And Kofer Bereaem ?

in 1948 the jews exiled the Christians from the two Christian Villages of Ecret And Kofer Bereaem until now they are exiled in thier own land in israel and can`t go back to thier Villages

the jews lied to them, they said to the Christians you have to leave your Villages for 2 weeks and after that you can come back to your Villages Ecret And Kofer Bereaem.

how right is that ?
is that a treatment to the Christians in The Holy Land The First Christians Ever ?

well can anoyone give his opinion about that ?

THE GALILEAN,

It is shameful indeed. It is not right!

As I understand it, the reasoning of the Israeli government is that once you open a slit, the flood will follow; that all "Palesitinians" will subsequently ask "why them and not me?". I do not agree: as opposed to those hostile Arabs across the border, these Christians have been living in Israel for 58 years and have not undermined Israel's safety or Jewish nature. If they haven't been involved in terror for so long, why would they suddenly become terrorists if they got their villages back? a lack of common sense!