FH - it is true that the main hebrew idea of a messiah was that of a secular king to fight battles, and this is what the disciples seem to have thought Jesus was, thus His accusing them of being satan. You seem to be missing the large alternative tradition in the Hebrew bible and culture of the suffering servant, in Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and Jeremiah etc. This alternative messiah is exactly what Jesus was, a spiritual leader and savior. The first idea of a king to fight battles was found mainly in the illiterate lower classes, where they were seriously oppressed by other nations. Where this oppression was lessened, the literary elite came up with a significantly different understanding of the messiah, that of the Prophets and the apocalyptic literature.

The fact you are aware of the one but not the other, suggests to me that your education was indeed a brainwashing. You are aware of all the issues, eg Gospel of Barnabas, but have not been introduced to the whole of the arguments. Decidedly dangerous.

But what could you expect from education systems run in third world, willfully ignorant, islamic countries.

I get the feeling that I am metaphorically listening to a bunch of used car salesmen saying "Trust me" on the basis that if I buy their car I will have a heavenly ride, but if I'm foolish enough to buy a different model, then my experience will be hellish.

{I don't put all posters on this topic in that category BTW.]

As I have said repeatedly, I believe in the freedom of people to believe whatever they want, as long as others are not disadvantaged. But can anyone understand why I don't want Australia to be controlled by those who base their moral or legal agendas on unprovable religious beliefs?

Sorry inmy earlier comment I said the 2 girls were buried for 3 days ,but actually after checking it on the internet it was 15 days .
I copied it for all to read below.


from Deborah Khalil.

I can not wait to let you know about this great
testimony and the confirmation that our Lord JESUS
is alive. It begins as a tragedy but ends as an
incredible miracle.


Victor received this by email a few days ago
(20/05/04), and talked with family in Egypt to
confirm the details that were given there on the
news.

A Muslim man in Egypt killed his wife and buried her
with their infant baby and 8-year old daughter. The
girls were buried alive! He reported to the police
that an uncle killed the kids.

15 days later, another family member died. When they
went to bury him, they found the 2 girls under the
sand - alive! The girl was asked how she had
survived?

"A man wearing shiny white clothes, with bleeding
wounds in his hands, came every day to feed us. He
woke up my mom so she could nurse my sister."

She was interviewed on Egyptian national TV, by a
veiled Muslim woman news anchor. She said on public
TV, "This was none other but Jesus, because nobody
else does things like this!"

Muslims believe Isa would do this; but the wounds
mean He really was crucified, and it's clear also
that He is alive! The country is outraged over the
incident, and the man will be executed. But it's
also clear that the child could not make up a story
like this, and there is no way these children could
have survived without a true miracle.

Muslim leaders are going to have a hard time to
figure out what to do with this, and the popularity
of the Passion movie doesn't help matters either!
With Egypt at the center of the media and education
in the Middle East, you can be sure that this story
will spread. Christ is still turning the world
upside down!

.

Can we PLEASE get away from the preaching in this thread? It is getting utterly boring and annoying. I fail to see how Dobbadan's story above in ANY WAY contributes to the discussion of the article, which was about the sterotyping of people who follow Islam in Australia.

Is radical/fundamentalist Islam out of step with Australian soceity? Most certainly.

But so is radical/fundamentalist Christianity, and radical/fundamentalist Judaisim.

Mainstream muslims are no more a threat Australia than mainstream ANYTHING. All the article was asking was that mainstreamers, who are the majority by a long long long shot, are not judged as being the same as the radicals.

here here.

you all do your cause no good.

I would be disspointed if i were each of your gods, for presenting my religion in the light you have.

Fide Mae,

Thanks for your posting but you seem to resort to quick judgement and assumptions.

I grew up in a French Catholic school.In fact many Muslim countries have foreign and Catholic schools. It seems 'Muslim schools in your mind consists of madrassas and people sitting on the floor reciting blindly! Second none of my comments explains or compare religions or non-religions. I am explaining only my faith and only when being attacked or misrepresented. Unlike physics, religions (including Atheism) are only a 'personal absolute truth'. Each individual will follow what makes sense to them or whatever sits well with their brain.

Dawood,

It put a smile on my face to see an Anglo Muslim talking about Ibn Taymiyah:-) . Keep it up and agree with your comments on the apostate that it have no substance in Islam but rather an inherent extremism. Also, I found some historians misrepresent the Abu Bakr war as 'war on apostates' while it was a Zakat (poors due) tax evasion and not to whether they are or aren't Muslims. Faith change does not trigger apostacy.