Meg, perhaps your church should answer why it selectively insists on natural law, only when it comes to increasing the number of followers. More little Catholics to outbreed the Muslims perhaps? Even more power to the Vatican? Was the old papa worried about demographics when he dreamed up the HV?

The human population has grown from 1.5 billion to 6.5 billion in 100 years, using unnatural means, not natural.

You clearly don’t have much understanding of evolution theory either, for if you did, you would have understood that Philo’s comments were irrelevant to anything claimed by anyone in the field. It just showed his ignorance and it seems yours too now. I can cope with anyone’s comments, but at least
they need some relevance.

Meg, reread your own posts, you brag all the time, without anyone asking you anything in that regard.

So if you are happy to do good for others for its own reward, why do you assume that those who don’t believe in heaven can’t do the same, as you implied? Pure arrogance and ignorance it seems.

I experienced the type of counselling anti-abortionists offer on the day I confirmed my pregnancy. My GP was anti-abortion. I had become concerned about his failure to note the problems I was having in my marriage - his advice was to follow my husband's lead in everything when I complained about the way my husband was treating me. I guess I was very naive then. I never attended my GP when I was bruised - too embarrassed.

After I managed to stop crying, I told my GP that I could not proceed with my pregnancy. He wouldn't listen, just lectured me. Finally after saying he would not perform an abortion he gave me a referral to a doctor who did perform them. Somehow I found this hypocritcal - if he didn't perform abortions then why would he refer me to someone who did?

Anyway, I refered myself to the Bertram Wainer clinic and was subjected to further abuse by a rabble of anti-abortion protesters outside the clinic.

However, one really good thing resulted from this experience; I realized that if I couldn't bear having his children then I really had to get out of my marriage. It took two years of planning but I finally escaped.

I have never regretted having an abortion, leaving my husband or standing up for my reproductive rights.

When I read that Meg1 and Philo claim to offer counselling to pregnant women my blood simply runs cold.

All they have offered on these threads is either abuse or dogma.

Meg1 and Philo you have a choice in how you conduct your lives allow me the same right. Just because you disapprove of me doesn't mean you should have to stoop to rudeness and abuse. I am sure that you have made mistakes in your lives - maybe you were lucky and found the right spouse, good for you! But my life is my responsibility and I have managed very well in spite of or perhaps because of my mistakes. At the very least I am capable of learning and moving on. What about you?

Meg1 “Read carefully...TRUTH is UNIVERSAL...”

That might be so but

Catholics are but one of the claimants to thee “TRUTH”

Religious and Political extremists of every persuasion claim they are to sole recipients of the truth.

El Qaeda claims to possess the TRUTH so too did David Koresh in Texas in 1993.

The only thing El Qaeda, the Davidians and the RCC have in common is, they all lie. The only difference between the former and the RCC is RCC have been doing it longer and are thus more practiced and slicker than the others.

“That you and I are alive and human is true...”

I am not sure what you consider “alive”, with the restrictions to choice would comply with what I consider to be “alive”. Applying your rules I would suggest merely “existing”.

However, the abortion debate is not about what is and what is not an absolute and universal truth.

It is about an individuals sovereign right of self determination.

In this context

You would deny that right to people who seek abortion because it offends or disagrees with your religion and the beliefs you share with your religion.

I, on the other hand, support the absolute and universal right of individuals to determine, for themselves, how their bodies will be used.

I believe my observation, that we do have sovereignty over our bodies and freewill to determine how our body will be used is an absolute and universal human right.

I would suggest it should be an absolute and universal truth, except just as slavery still exists, so to some religions would deny that sovereignty and peddle their version as a corrupt malevolence on the congregants they are supposed to support.

That the Roman Catholic Church continues to work in the background through a host of fronts to retain religious control and subvert the rights of individuals is a matter of record.

That it has duped you into believing it is right and presumably is recipient of some universal truth is merely a matter of your gullibility.

We are not all so gullible.

Like ive always said this should be up to the woman not the government. It is not fair for them to decide for the woman on this very personal issue! Especially coz they are males of all people males wouldnt know what its like to have a child inside them or what its like to give birht to them! A womans body changes dramaticly in the pregnancy!and women change mentally.

Its HER body HER life that is affected not anyone elses! No one shuld judge or condem the women who undergo this procedure its not as if they enjoy it! sometimes it has to be done!

Teenage girls in parts of the world have sometimes died giving birth and undergoing unsafe abortion procedures because of a narrow minded government who makes abortions illegal! if this pill became available then it wuld reduce the problems that these young ladies face and they wont be put under danger!

That is exactly what is going to happen if abortion is criminalised or the ru486 pill isnt approved the women who want an abortion will have one anyway legal or not. Its like anything ie: under age drinking its illegal but people still do it!

For starters where does life begin? No one can judge that.
Doesnt it say in the bible that life begins at the very first breath?
Doesnt that answer the question? well again that is up to the individual.

no one is right on one is wrong. This is a forum and its where you say what you think dont ya?

Im not a murderer philo and meg1 i just believe in personal choice!

Please Meg1, tell us what the truth is.

Others can then post their view of the truth, and you can show us how this is different from the truth.

Or if you don't actually know the truth but have belief in what is true, we can work out how it is different from others, how it may be based on a more coherent set of beliefs, or why it is closer to the univeral truth than other beliefs.

Actually, I invite everyone to show their views.

Philo, what "reality that you observe" makes "any person ...who deliberately terminate the life of an unborn child after conception ... guilty of murder."?

I believe our value is grounded in biology. If we can enjoy our lives, they are valuable. The more we can enjoy them, due to capacities to change environments so that we can enjoy our lives, the more valuable they are.

Those that believe morality is unimportant, or who do not believe biology affects morality (eg possessing a soul gives humans value which is not associated with anatomy) can have just as rational arguments as I, from the basis of their beliefs.

We can debate our base beliefs, but there will be a degree of fruitless argument about how our base beliefs are "just correct".

Atleast then we can agree to disagree, and acknowledge others hold their views from a certain basis, not because they intend to be evil (you can still believe that holding that other view perpetrates evil).

I don't wish to put words in other's mouths, but it seems Meg1 and Philo believe abortion is immoral because human life is sacrosanct. Why?

My suspicion is their base belief is that God (via the church) has decreed the soul is present from conception.

Having limited number of words to reply is getting harder for Meg1 and Philo as their detractors grow, but if they inform of the actual truth, rather than leaving me to rely on my suspicions, debate on the topic may progress somewhat from the name calling it has degenerated into (from all sides).

I don't try to impose my beliefs on others and I expect the same consideration. If others try to browbeat me, it usually seems to be because they regard their beliefs as superior to mine and that gives them the right [and duty] to use any means at their disposal to force me to submit.

I don't believe that an early foetus is the same as a child. I think it's very sad if finding herself pregnant does not always bring joy to a woman [and to her partner]. But I accept the obvious truth this does not invariably happen, for a whole variety of valid reasons. In such a case, I accept that the woman has the right to choose abortion and I don't regard this as murder.

The existence of "God" can neither be proven nor disproven, so none of us are in a position to be dogmatic about this. For those who believe in a loving God and the existence of a soul, well don't you think that he would be smart enough to not penalise souls who have done nothing wrong, just because a fallible human got something wrong?

The Pope is a human being, just like the rest of us and is no more infallible than you or I. You want to believe otherwise, then go for it, but don't expect the rest of us to give this strange notion any credibility.

And for those who quote the Bible and claim that constitutes proof of anything, I would say this. Quoting portions of an unproven document cannot be regarded as proof.

I have friends of many faiths and none. We get on fine because we don't try to push our beliefs down one another's throats.

I am pro-choice on probably all the so-called moral issues. I listen to reasoned arguments on various topics which are not based on unprovable religious dogma. But I don't respond to insults, particularly those related to alleged personality characteristics, assumed by people who don't even know me.

There, I think I've managed to state my position without insulting anyone!