Yabby, you clearly can’t comprehend the vast difference between the genuine affection and admiration shown towards Pope John Paul 11 and the giddy, often intoxicated adulation ‘where teenybopper girls faint at the site of their rockstar’.

I can assure you that non-Catholics and Catholics alike indicated their admiration and appreciation of the Pope…no giddy crowds, just people whose minds were open enough to see and appreciate an ordinary man who had lived an extraordinary life of selfless service and love. People who wanted to simply say, “ Thank You for the man you are.”

‘primates display empathy/altruism’

No Yabby, they display instinctive or learned behaviour from other members of the group.

As usual, you are making up the theories as you go along…and discrediting them as quickly…

‘empathy and altruism are part of our genetic herigate, as a social species’

You say that empathy and altruism are genetic and then that a mother’s love is hormonal, etc…which is it? You need to make up your own mind before you try to convince others. A mother who prepares for and anticipates the birth of her child with confidence and love will relate to that child more readily than a mother who anticipates the birth and the child with fear and dread…hormones play a part Yabby, but there are many other factors, including support, previous experience with children, etc. No one is GENETICALLY or HORMONALLY a good or bad mother…that theory lost any credibility before you spat it out.

RE: This thread being ‘flooded with fanatical Christians doing that in excess’ (criticizing Islam)…your paranoia is again evident with this claim while at the same time stating…that criticism of the Catholic Church ‘is seldom highlighted anywhere’

…you’re kidding, right? There are few anti-life posts on these threads that aren’t obsessive, paranoid rants claiming the Catholic Church is responsible for every pernicious, evil deed on earth…the reason? Just because they have rules you and your anti-life ilk can’t or won’t live up to and so feel obliged to discredit at every opportunity using fair means or foul and with scant regard to truth.

(tbc...)

(Cont…)

‘…we are debating abortion here in Australia right now and there is no organisation campaigning as the Catholic Church does’

You are delusional Yabby…I have heard only one Catholic Church leader speak out, George Pell…who are all the others you claim are involved? I am on this forum as an individual who has an opinion as I do on other forums, or wherever I choose…just as you do, I presume! Or are you speaking on behalf of only the bonobos and chimps - on this thread?

‘You see the world in a totality of black and white. It IS possible to be too emotionally engaged on a particular subject to be able to debate reasonably - as you repeatedly demonstrated on the question of abortion.’

Scout, this surely refers to YOU, doesn’t it? If anyone’s expressed extremes of emotion on the abortion issue repeatedly, it’s you…also black and white on what YOU demand others accept…simply because you say so.

‘you can't back down from a put-down’…

So you’d rather indulge in your ‘put-downs’ and have no one respond - you like to belittle and have others cower instead?…black and white, no resistence? Hmmm...

Rather than specify Catholics, Scout, you have instead berated ALL Christians in your posts, so the comment on open mindedness and finding we don’t have three heads… still applies…

Bosk, I’d hardly think you’ve turned the other cheek…dismissing your arguments is hardly striking you…even metaphorically.

Neither you nor I are obliged to respond to anything, don’t pose irrational scenarios and be insulted when they’re dismissed as such.

Isn’t it curious that you anti-lifers demand Catholics defend THEIR position, defending the lives of the unborn, the existence of a soul, etc…yet fail to defend your own position denying the existence of one and the rights of the other…

If I entered my local police-station saying I’d just killed someone, they wouldn’t shrug and say I must’ve had good reason for doing it…and leave it at that.

The onus is on you to prove why you are 'more equal' than any others…and should have the right to kill.

Meg
Thank you for once again disdainfully dismissing my argument. Such a reaction by you IS insulting by the way. And disdainfully dismissing an argument [in this case as illogical without giving reasons why] is NOT the same thing as not responding. In that case you would NOT have mentioned my argument at all!

Now to your contention that an analogical argument is illogical.

First you may ask why should I use an analogical argument? To quote a philosophy site "The simplest variety of inductive reasoning is argument by analogy, which takes note of the fact that two or more things are similar in some respects and concludes that they are probably also similar in some further respect."

How important is the use of analogy you may ask? To quote the wikipedia "Analogy plays a significant role in problem solving & has been argued that analogy is "the core of cognition" . Sounds pretty important wouldn't you say Meg? Doesn't sound like an analogical argument should just be disdainfully dismissed as illogical.

By the way Meg the analogical argument was not mine. It was first published in the "Philosophical Review" by a professor of ethics from Cornell University. I heard it debated a few times at various universities by professors on both sides of the abortion issue. Do you know that NOT one professor seemed to realise that they should just disdainfully dismiss the argument as illogical? On the contrary they seemed to believe it was a logical argument & well worth debating whatever their position.

Finally, in your last post you complained that no one posts any argument supporting the pro abortion position but expect the anti abortionists to always defend theirs. Are you serious Meg? I've posted 4 arguments! one biblical, one theological, one medical, & one philosophical.

MJ, I've been away, so havent read your Buddhism urls. Suffice to say, Japan, without much Christian influence, has a far far lower crime rate then America, the most Christian Western nation on the planet!

As to genetics, why isn't everyone extremly good looking? DNA will
vary in individuals. Fact is that most people are hardwired to some extent to be part of a social group and display what you call "morals" Most people want friends and they won't have friends if they lie, cheat and steal from them .

If the Catholic Church alleviates suffering, then why do hundreds of thousands of women in say South America, die because of its policies?

If clear guidance on what is right and wrong is clearly flawed, then why should anyone take notice? Morality is subjective opinion, in the end. There is no evidence of objective morality, as claimed by the Church.

Meg, we are going from endocrionology 101 here, back to endocrinology 01. Endocrine levels are genetically controlled, get used to it. So the question of "either or" does not even arise.

You do not change your blood levels of say oxyticocin, by freewilling them to change. They are as they are, due to your genetic heritage. Yup, some mothers are just naturally good mothers,
not just in humans, but in many species. That feeling of love for their children, just comes naturally, not by freewill or thought process.

The pro life lobby is dominated by Catholic associates Meg. Follow the links of the one I posted some time ago. Invariably they all lead back to the Catholic Church.

Meg, people clearly feel affection and admiration for the Beatles, still today. Catholic zealots feel the same for their papa, the principle is much the same...

"No Yabby, they display instinctive or learned behaviour from other members
of the group."

ROFL, you mean just like humans :)



Regarding the soul, you have to prove that there is one, for one cannot prove a negative. Just like you cannot prove that the tooth fairy or Santa don't really exist.

[Deleted for abuse and poster suspended.]

Bosk
”Not in South America MJ… done deals with right wing dictators & preached patience to the poor & opressed.”

What deals? Obviously none in Brazil where the Church helped produce leaders for mass opposition movements. The previous Pope called for non-violent change and rejected a Marxist approach to change that some of his flock in South America had leaned toward including revolutionary violence. The Church has also been critical of Government policies concerning the poor, and attacked the government and failure to address social problems. Preaching peace and pressuring the Government to reform is not the same as doing deals.

” You might like to read this site MJ.
…The evidence surprised the heck out of me I must admit.”

The study compares the social peformance of some relatively secular countries with the US because the majority in US believe in “a creator”. That America had more crime surprised you?

”Now to your contention that an analogical argument is illogical.”

I doubt if it is deliberate but you are creating a straw man. She didn’t assert that analogical is necessarily illogical. She said you were being illogical.

Yabby

“… Japan, without much Christian influence, has a far far lower crime rate then America…”

Crime is not a behaviour characteristic of Christians. Sri Lanka is largely Buddhist but they have problems with terrorism and organised crime and allegations of genocide. In both cases the problems are due to the country not the religion.

If the Catholic Church alleviates suffering, then why do hundreds of thousands of women in say South America, die because of its policies?

From what?

”If clear guidance on what is right and wrong is clearly flawed, then why should anyone take notice?”

If the world is clearly flat why should we send out international ships? It is not clearly flawed.

Col
“… old woman Meg1, (typical catholic)”

I don’t recall her age being mentioned. Am I to infer that you are also prejudiced against old women?

“hypocritic”
People in glass houses! You are the one who claims to advocate respecting others.