Yabby,

"Masturbation is evil". Only if you go blind.

In Australia I have the right to ignore and/or disbelieve Catholic dogma. I regard the attitude that the Pope is infallible as almost unbelievably fatuous. I don't claim to be infallible, but I have a better chance of being so than the Pope, because I haven't lived a life of closed minded brainwashing. And if the Pope [presumably every Pope] really is infallible, then what went wrong with the system when Galileo was trying to inject a bit of scientific truth into the world view of the universe?

And as for quoting the Bible, particularly early Old Testament stuff, as "proof" of anything, well save that for those who haven't bothered to think anything out for themselves. And what about the thoughts of Aquinas et al? They no more have a direct line to God than I do, they can only surmise what may or may not happen in regard to what we could call spiritual matters.

This is the kind of thing which annoys many thinking Australians:

http://www.optusnet.com.au/news/story/abc/20060214/18/domestic/1569839.inp

"Pell attacks RU486 supporters
5:06 PM February 14

The Catholic Church says any member of Parliament who supports the abortion pill RU486 in tonight's debate in the House of Representatives is against life."

No George, Australia is supposed to be a sectarian democracy and MPs should reflect the wishes of their electorates, so far as that is reasonably possible.

If the Catholic Church wants Australia to be a religious dictatorship, under the control of the Pope, then let them openly stand candidates with this platform and see how many of us would support that.

I'm sorry, Francis, condescension doesn't work, nor does avoidance. It is your religion that has been inserted into this debate, not mine, and it would be cowardly in the extreme if you choose to walk away from it.

anomie helpfully points out that "the Catholic Catechism refers entirely to the born, not the aborted", which I don't believe to be the case. My copy says categorically that "Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being."

The rules also state that unless you have been baptized, hell is where you end up. No argument there, it is in the book.

The justification for this rule is the little matter of original sin. Having lived a totally blameless few weeks attached to someone's insides, the embryo is still deemed by your wise religion to be full of sin.

Again, the rules clearly state that you can't get around this, not even on the grounds that it is a totally ludicrous concept.

Since it is not possible for an aborted foetus (or a miscarried one, for that matter) to have been baptised prior to its shuffling off this mortal coil, the little bundle of cells goes straight to hell.

The catechism dictates that a totally insensate entity must suffer the torment of the damned, because the laws of your religion deem it to be a "person".

Francis, it is your beliefs that we are talking about, and the reason we are talking about them is that you are holding them up as some form of justification for taking decisions away from intelligent, feeling adults.

If you continue to skulk in a corner and avoid the discussion, it doesn't say much for the strength of your position, does it?

Pericles.....who's being condescending? Who's adopting
an avoidance mode? Who's being cowardly? You're making a fool of yourself. It's very easy to quote parts of anything and omit the rest! For starters, in the Catechism try #1258, #1259, #1260 and #1261 (the latter will pay the lie to your ignorant assertions).
Then read Lumen Gentium 16....particularly "Those who do not know the Gospel of Christ.....and who try to do God's will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience/...those too m,ay achieve eternal salvation. Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary to salvation for those who, WITHOUT ANY FAULT OF THEIRS ( e.g aborted babies.....my illustration here) have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God..... Does that sound like consigning all the unbaptised to gehenna?

You mention the rules which lead to hell.....which rules are these? What planet are you from?

Finally, in your quote re Original Sin you only gave part of that section/ Did you not have the courage to quote the lot?

Francis

While some may think that Catholics would condemn the unborn to Hell, this is not an accurate representation of Catholic belief.

In his encyclical letter Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life, paragraph 99), Pope John Paul II said the following:

"I would now like to say a special word to women who have had an abortion. The Church is aware of the many factors which may have influenced your decision, and she does not doubt that in many cases it was a painful and even shattering decision. The wound in your heart may not yet have healed. Certainly what happened was and remains terribly wrong. But do not give in to discouragement and do not lose hope. Try rather to understand what happened and face it honestly. If you have not already done so, give yourselves over with humility and trust to repentance. The Father of mercies is ready to give you his forgiveness and his peace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You will come to understand that nothing is definitively lost and you will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord."

Let me repeat that final line: "...your child, who is now living in the Lord."

Between this and the recent "review" of the theological speculation about the possible existence of limbo, contemporary thought in the Church is that aborted children have been baptised "by desire" and are in Heaven.

"The wound in your heart may not yet have healed."

Clearly the old papa was not up with modern science, hearts pump
blood, emotions are centered in the limbic system. So much
for papal infallibility :)

I really think that all the contradictions here, are really
due to the wishy washy doctrine of the Church. One moment they
are threatening, next minute they are placating and giving hope.
So some contradictions in the doctrine is to be expected.

At the end of the day, what matters to the Church is bums on seats
on Sunday and in that they are clearly failing.

Just a few hundred years ago, they were burning people at the stake.
Now they claim the sanctity of a bunch of cells.

I have no problem with religion helping quell the anxieties of those who need it, to help balance brain chemistry etc. That can be understood and accepted. I really do have a problem when they try to claim the ultimate truth of all that dogma and enter the poltical
field to try to force the rest of us to live by it.