ODSOC

as I've often said.. 'bring the teaching of Christ to bear on our approach, and I'll rejoice'... and u have done so. Well done !

Martin also brings out an important point, about Christs stern words.

[44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.]

Its hard to know sometimes just where critics are coming from.
-Hiding from the call of God behind the 'bad Christians'.
-Others may simply feel the need to point out inconsistencies between the tone of posts and the teaching of Christ. (from their perch of perfection of course :)

lets take the important point from the verse above and reflect on that.

".. that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."

i.e. God, our heavenly Father, is just as concerned (if not more) about those not yet in His kingdom. hence the parable of the lost sheep.

The efforts in pointing out a perceived lack in our lives of 'your understanding' of how a Christian should be, might be better directed in 'being' that which you seek for us to be. Why not consider your own position b4 God, and ask "Where do I stand" ?

Let me emphasize, that the easiest thing in the world to do, is take some of Christs teaching, such as u did, and then contrast this with the actions of those who claim His name.

The hardest thing in the world to do, is live by those precepts of Christ 100% of the time. So, when you start doing so, give me a call :)

Perhaps.... just perhaps.. Jesus was explaining God's standard, by which we are judged, where we all fall short.. and underlining our need for a Saviour, where, by faith in Him, God then sees 'His' righteousness, rather than our own flaws ?

BD, "Others may simply feel the need to point out inconsistencies between the tone of posts and the teaching of Christ. (from their perch of perfection of course".

No "perch of perfection" required. Most of us are not in the business of claiming that
- we have "the answer"
- others have to follow our way/our gods way etc
- we are indwelt by a holy spirit of god

Rather we are in the business of living our lives as well as we are able with what we have, flaws and all. We are for the most part human beings who choose to take responsibility for our own choices and weaknesses.

We don't need to be perfect to see that the behaviour of many of the christain posters on this site invalidates their claims about their faith.

We are not claiming that we have found the ultimate answer but that does not require us to accept the claims of those who have settled for a clearly contradictory and flawed answer and who then insist on using that answer as the basis for much of their argument.

Believe what you want in private, but when you bring your beliefs and claims about your beliefs into public debate (especially in the context of bagging the beliefs of others) then you should expect those beliefs and the outworking of those beliefs in your posts to be critiqued. Especially so when the outworking of your beliefs leads to calls for harm to or discrimination against those who hold different beliefs or when you try and insist that your flawed belief system be the basis of laws which others are required to live by.

R0bert

RObert,

"We don't need to be perfect to see that the behaviour of many of the christain posters on this site invalidates their claims about their faith."

Can you please explain what is it that you mean by "claims about their faith"?

Do you mean that if we were really courteous and polite, you would consider joining our faith?

That to me is extremely hypocritical – that goes for Scout too – because if you are suggesting that nice dialogue is what you require to investigate and choose a faith you are not only kidding us but sadly yourself.

If it is nicety and humility that would make you tick – why don’t you join FH’s way of life? You have nothing bad to say about him – so maybe – using your logic – he must have the right answer you are looking for? Or are you looking?

If we tend to be “not to your liking” it is because these “faith” matters are of top importance not just in our lives but for the future of humanity.

One last thing – you contradict yourself by saying that you don't like to be judged, then in the same breath pronounce that Chritianity is for “…those who have settled for a clearly contradictory and flawed answer”

Get a grip. And try (harder) to see the trees from the forest.

Still no answers, just avoidance of the answers.
Coach
You say: "If it is nicety and humility that would make you tick – why don’t you join FH’s way of life? "

A journey through Paul's and Peter's letters seems to show them asking for exactly what you derisively attribute to Fellow_Humanist.

Is this a case of ... nah, it couldn't possibly be that a humanist was more christian than a christian, now could it?

Please note: I am not deriding christian beliefs, or principles, or faith. I am not claiming perfection or self-righteousness because, those same letters seem to say that in this life they are unattainable. And I am not judging anyone, simply asking some questions. ;)

I seem to find the need to show respect there too. And this is why I would like to know more abut Irfan's beliefs, to respect them, not to deride them.

Odsoc

odsoc, Fellow_Human is muslim and the target of an amazing amount of attack by a group of posters claiming to be christain. Whilst his choice of religion is not one I would make he does make a habit of conducting himself in these forums in a manner which brings credit rather than disrepute to himself and his faith.

coach, it's not just about niceness,you may have seen comments I made a while ago regarding Col who is often not "nice" but appears to try pretty hard to live by the values he claims for his own life. I have no desire to join any faith based on a idea of God but FH's approach to life and his respect for others is much more to my liking as someone I could live next door to than your own or that of many of your fellow posters.

As to your question about my becoming a christan if you all start being nice now - probably to late for that. Maybe if God moves through his church and exercises some authority to clean out the riff raff I might reconsider. I may not have rejected christainity in the first place if the evangelical christain church had not had so many people in it with attitudes as far from the teachings of Jesus as your own. Arrogant unreasonably rude christains do drive others from taking the christain faith seriously. You make a mokery of concepts like the fruit of the spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the renewing of the mind etc. The christain gospel does not appear to have ever really touched you where you live judging from your posts.

I don't particularly appreciate being judged and if others leave me alone I'll generally leave them to their own choices. If you assume the right to criticise my choices and the value of my life then expect your own choices and the lack of evidence that you live by the teachings you claim to be judged.

R0bert

Meredith,
Thanks, perhaps just a couple more.

All,

Whilst it's not surprising bashers like to label Christians as fundies, bad whatever... I certainly don't consider myself labelled as such here.

In a debate, you take a position and be challenged for your position and that's that. All those rubbish about bagging other's faith and beating around the bush.

It's about - Danish cartoons: Muslims in their own Dark Age

To me the issue is clearly Islam, not whether you have to be nice when talking about Islam.

For a start, my position is not even remotely a Christian position.

(1) I am not here as a Christian
I attack Islam as a non-Muslim foremost. Nothing to do with Christian at all. My writing would be similar even if I'm atheist or Buddhist. (My many relatives are Buddhists and they loath Islam.) In fact my PRIMARY driving force is none other than FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. It's plain to see Islam is a threat (but still it appears some are blind to the fact).

(2) Even if you think I align with Christians, I'm NOT your typical christian as I rarely go to church, not prayed for years and do not consider to be in-dwelt by holy spirit. I'm a person of logical reasoning foremost and that has led me to Christianity doorstep. Christianity is mostly a knowledge thing for me.
But precisely because I'm truth/logic-bound (as opposed to spiritual or emotion based), I find my conviction actually stronger than some christians (like R0bert once were). Knowledge tells me individual's body's in fact the church. When I do go to a church (building), my conviction is a church is a place for upholding each others, not simply critising, attacking and then leave in disgust. There're all manners of personality in a church building. So I do not look for "speck in one's eye".

My purpose here has always been clear. Still my tough talks have been taken advantage by some not from "perch of perfection" but "perch of self-righteousness" rather, as an excuse and diversion to counter-attack others.

Hypocrites they are.