Just a quick thought...

I know I don't have the words, or the experience, or the scientific knowledge, or the historical knowledge to refute these arguments (and they are fair comments). I can't explain to you my own beliefs, and the knowledge that God is with me through every moment of the day, and that He has guided me my whole life. I have no 'facts' to back this up.

What I can suggest, though, is that you look to those with scientific backgrounds who have refuted much of what is claimed about evolution. These are not just religious 'quacks', they are world-respected scientists, who have been able to back up their claims through science.

I grew up with many of the Christian 'myths' that have been used to refute evolution, etc, and have tried to use them in the past. But now I try to base my arguments on 'fact'. You will find these scientists even discourage the use of these old arguments, that have been proven false.

A book I can recommend (I am sure there are many others) is called "The Answers Book", written by the Answers in Genesis organisation. These people have been known in the past as "Creation scientists" (not to be confused with "Christian Scientists"). A copy of this is available electronically:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/AnswersBook/index.asp

As I said, I am not intelligent enough to be able to debate this subject without being ridiculed. But guys, I recommend you read this through thoroughly. The worst that can happen is you'll find more ammunition to fire back with, and good for you if you can find fault with their science. This book certainly helped answer a lot of questions for me, regarding evolution, dinosaurs, new discoveries, etc.

As these guys say, whether you believe in Creation or Evolution, your arguments will depend on where your suppositions start.

I dare you, therefore, to actually read this document through, and refute their 'evidence', as you can so easily refute the 'evidence' of the post-ers on this site.

:-)

For those who may be interested (because it is related to the original topic...) I've just seen an ad on the ABC for this weeks' Compass program on Sunday night. I believe it's titled something like: CS Lewis - life after Narnia.

Should/could be interesting...

:-)

Tacitus Written in aprox AD 100, earliest copy made aprox AD 1100, time lapse between copies 1000 years, number of copies 20

Caesars Gallic wars Written 58-50BC, earliest copy AD 900, Time lapse between copies 950 years, number of copies 10

The closest item of historical writing that can even come close to the New testament is Homers Iliad

It was written down around 800BC, Earliest copy made around AD 200, Time lapse between copies 1000 years, number of copies 650 with a 95% textual accuracy

New testament, written down between 40-100 AD aprox, earliest copies AD 130, time lapse between copies only 30 years, Number of copies, More than 24,000 In Greek, Latin, Ethiopic, Slavic and Armenian with 99.5% Textural accuracy.
The Data for ALL the above includes pieces of the manuscripts also.

Even if you do your usual historical Gymnastics with the details, this must be considered impressive, even for the blind.


I cant sum it up any better than Paul's note in the NT, to which no Historian denies he wrote '....they are without excuse'. and just so you can get the context, its found in Romans Chapter 1 verses 18 through to 22.

Before i forget verse 22 states 'Proffesing to be wise, they became fools.'

As a historical figure and the idea of Myth, the Narratives of Jesus the Christ, and certainly the belief in Him as God come down, was penned within the lifetime of witnesses. Compare this to the biography of Alexander the Great not writen until 500 years after death. Which is the most likely to develop Mythical substance?

Come on guys, wake up!
Whether you like it or not Jesus gave His life for you to have life, and the option to take up this offer WILL EXPIRE on your death.

Boaz, I'm not trying to disqualify anything here...

>>I can only offer you the gospels.. they are as close to contemporary as one could reasonably expect.<<

All I am doing is asking questions. I have no doubt that you have weighed up all the evidence and convinced yourself that "near enough is good enough", and I don't have a problem with that.

However, when using ones beliefs as facts with which to beat others over the head, metaphorically speaking, I have to protest. The interesting aspect of it all to me is not whether one side of the argument prevails or doesn't prevail - after all, there can be no real proof in situations like this, only diverging opinions - but the substance and quality of the evidemce used.

And for me - not for you, for me - it is extremely thin.

edi - I read your words with some interest, but found myself asking the same question over and over...

>>Tacitus Written in aprox AD 100, earliest copy made aprox AD 1100, time lapse between copies 1000 years... Caesars Gallic wars Written 58-50BC, earliest copy AD 900, Time lapse between copies 950 years, number of copies 10...Homers Iliad... was written down around 800BC, Earliest copy made around AD 200, Time lapse between copies 1000 years, number of copies 650...<<

What did they copy from?

What exactly is the significance of the time delay involved? Are you implying some form of textual degradation over time? Please enlighten me.

RObert:We are not a part of any mainstream Church
Have been members of this Church since 1965. This Church was at one time a very hard line, fundamentalist group. Then God through the Holy Spirit changed us, the only Church in modern times to do so, completely. Now, though far less in numbers we are a Christ centred Church.
We are over 20 miles away so only attend on ocassions but do a lot of private study using various sources.
Beliefs: 1. Cannot attain to the righteousness demanded by God, can't even get close.
2.Try by our own efforts to obey the 'big ten' or the sermon on the mount. Not only are we doomed to failure but we run the risk of becoming self-righteous, which in itself is a sin.
3. Accept Christ as Saviour God then imputes Christ's righteousness to us. We live a Christian life and we see ourselves as God's responsibility. So look to Him to change us and He does so very slowly and it is ALL His work - not ours.
4. God wants us and has made it available to us through the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.
The crucified thief looked to Christ and he was told "today you will be with Me in Paradise" This criminal had never been to services, may have been a Gentile so never observed the 'big ten'
Hope I haven't semonised. numbat

Azilis, you asked edi:

“What makes Christianity (and Judaism and Islam) stand out...

I can only answer for Christianity:

Jesus.

All other religions have:
1. a dead leader (Jesus is eternally alive)
2. a set of DIY rules and rituals
3. a no/false belief in Jesus

Pericles asks:

If Jesus went around doing all the things you believe he did - walking on water, feeding the multitude with loaves and fishes etc. - how come we don't have one single, solitary contemporary account?

Answer: we have 4 historical accounts in the new testament – read it.

its not easy being laments:

…, why the hell would I want to spend eternity with the fundies on this site […] they will be invited to the great gig in the sky

Sorry mate you are not on the guest list (yet)

Froggie exclaims,

>>GENESIS …only YOU know the "TRUTH".
I'd rather use my brain than be an unthinking slave to any religious doctrine.
Much easier to simply suspend one's thinking and analysis, isn't it? Just believe and all will be well. How incredibly childish and primitive.<<

Indeed mate, indeed.

The Alchemist has another prophetic moment:

“There is an accessible past, but not an accessible future, there isn't even a now, just evolving change.”

”My own experiences (near death ?) cut the religious bonds, showing me what is and isn't there…(the illusions) and view the reality of our world.”

”Reincarnation is a more feasible, rational explanation for our souls journey. …”

"The next evolutionary step for us, once we have thrown of the shackles of our superstitions and fears, is to move our psyche to the next dimension… Highly rational and logical,…”

Al, let's talk when you're back to planet earth

and the prize goes to (drumroll)

R0bert the explorer, (splash!)

>>…, personally I prefer the reincarnation option if I'm going to have an afterlife - "keep trying till I get it right".<<