Noone answered my post on slavery, etc being condoned in the Bible. Including Blessed whodidn't address the actual passages.

Edi says I'm selective about what I believe, but I gave you the passages. Go read them in context, don't fudge with excuses and tell me you what you truly think.

Martin-I'm not arguing about Jesus. It's God in the Bible who's punishing and cruel. How can anyone call him a God of Love? A god who's so vicious he would torture people with scorpions so they scream for death Rev.9:4-6.

You say disbelievers damn themselves to hell, the call of criminals throughout history-'you asked for it'. Men say it to women they rape, to men they beat and kill, torturers to their victims. It's the catchcry of anyone who's abusive to another. I don't ask for it. I refuse to call a God who would do that to others kind or loving. If some man locked someonein a room with bitingscorpions for 5months-would you think him loving? Why judge God so differently? Christians don't judge God-god can do anything gruesome he wants and you will follow him.

Edi-"Do you really believe that you can make a smorgasboard of gods and just pick what you like and discard what you dont." This is exactly what you're doing. You have chosen one God out of a smorgasbord. The difference is simply I made a different choice to you and I'm honest enough to say I don't like parts of the Bible instead of pretending they're not there or 'are taken out of context'.

"... sorry i'm truly not that big a gambler." You're just as big a gambler because you make one choice among myriads, just as I have. There are other religions that believe you will go to hell for being a christian you know.

The religion of John the Baptist, still existing in Iran, says Christ was a disciple who went astray- they are pacifists. Paul's teachings were rejected by the Church in Jerusalem because he taught circumcision and Kosher were unneccessary-so you don't even follow the original Christian religion.

Edi-Its not simple. There are other systems that believe in God, have rules, morals,encourage love and compassion towards others. What makes Christianity (and Judaism and Islam) stand out is their intolerance of other religions and philosophies and insistence others are evil.

Every day christians are enjoying what other religions and non-christian impulses have given them. Democracy was developed in Pagan Greece. The whole structure of government was passed down from the Roman Model that developed in paganism. Citizenship was a pagan invention. Welfare for the poor was a pagan concept before christianity came along. The MagnaCarta and the Abolition of Slavery were both against the doctrine of theBible-even though you may ignore the passages in the Bible that support that, the opponents of these, living then, didn't. Before Christianity and in countries where christianity hasn't predominated people have lived, loved their partners, loved their children,loved their fellow man, given charity, sacrificed their lives for others, developed technologies, worked hard just as christians have.

Your ancestry includes a long chain of pagan parents who loved their children. They held their babies in their arms dreaming of good things for them without ever imagining their descendents would call their beliefs evil and they will burn in hell for all eternity. How heart wrenching to think your descendants could think that of you.

Our mental institutions are full of people who believe God talks to them and others are possessed by evil spirits.Have you ever had anything to do with schizophrenics? Do you know how many of their delusions are full of the pit and demons and evil spirits? Do you know that in by far the majority of cases with religious delusions they believe they're good and that others are evil devils out to get them? The cruellest thing you can do to a schizophrenic is give them the Bible especially Revelations.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/manson/mansonrevelation.html -Charles Manson thought himself the fifth angel of the apocalypse.Does that surprise me?

edi-you pulled short of saying Ghandi was going to heaven.So I found the passage for you:(Mark16:16) only baptised people go to heaven. Ghandi is in Hell.

froggie. open your eyes and read my posts again. I never said ONLY I had the TRUTH, and YOU were WRONG. I said IN MY OPINION I BELIEVE I FOUND THE TRUTH. In your opinion, its not. I was talking about opinions not mattering in the end, whether the ultimate truth is what I beleive or what you beleive. Who has the larger consequence?
As for islam, hindu etc etc, , I did a comparative religions course on the worlds 5 major religions 8 years ago, and I came to the conclusion about my current beliefs. Thats how I think christianity is right and the others are wrong. Not because Im pig headed, but I weighed up the facts. To be honest, I was rather hoping buddhism would be the one to convict me, being a lot more popular, christianity being at the bottom of the list. But I couldnt deny what I learned.

its not being easy...said.."Mine, as well as all of yours, atoms will eventually return to the sun, in who's pressure and heat the complex particles that form our world were formed."..and you say the bible is fantasy:o) By the way, christians wont BE invited to the big gig in the sky, weve already been invited. And beleive it or not, so have you, all you have to do is accept the invitation.

Aziliz I don’t understand, don’t you consider the Gospels a contemporary account?

Perhaps Christianity (The Way) was successful against such antagonistic cultures because there were people around who could verify these incidents. Back then people thought “dare we write?” now its “what shall we write?”. Those that witnessed these things were responsible for his large following and his triumphant entry into Jerusalem. Matthew finally organized his account while being hunted by the Jews (he was eventually murdered by them).

Rules of evidence? This is a good site for the rules applied to ancient secular documents.

http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html

Christians believe God is all good. Good and evil look different depending on one’s perspective, wisdom and understanding. If a child’s tooth has to be pulled to prevent septicaemia and death, the child won’t believe it to be a mercy – pulling the tooth hurts. She’ll know it to be an evil.

Lets talk seriously for a moment. God said “to whom much has been given much is expected”. Also “You did not choose me I chose you”

God exists he’s worked in my life – yet despite what I’d known previously I have willfully sinned against Him – knowing full well what I was doing. I didn’t want to do what I knew God wanted. I suffered afterwards, yet I repeated it. Darkness replaced joy, my thinking altered too.

I’m able to imagine continuing that willfulness just for the sake of it, just because I could hurt God whom I knew loved me, whom I knew was all powerful – The Mightly God I can spit in his face! The prodigal son didn’t lack for love yet still chose his course of action.

For those who know really what they’re doing. What do you expect from God in this instance? Hell is a mercy when depravity can spiral onwards for eternity. Hate begets hate for ever! Hell is a kind of tourniquet perhaps.

“Those who sin against the Son of Man will be forgiven those who sin against the Holy Spirit can never be forgiven”. This applies to Christians, those who know

because of the light given them by the Spirit – yet it is these that can sin in the most deadly way.

Aziliz, often the parts of the Bible we find the most repugnant offer the most insight. I know that was the case with me and the doctrine of the Fall. Alternatively there is an excellent example of contextualization of the Jewish settling of Canaan and the battles that took place there.

“How could a God of Love order the massacre/annihilation of the Canaanites?”
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html

Aziliz Christianity has always absorbed what is best of life. People born before Christ searched everywhere for Salvation, they would think we extremely fortunate to know Jesus. Just because they were born before doesn’t mean they’re excluded, Jesus’ works forward and back in time.

Nothing good is foreign to God. Read Matthew ‘the sheep and the goats’. How is Christianity’s ability to absorb the good an argument against it? I don’t follow.

Aziliz I think you’re right to reject the God you describe. He’s certainly not my God.

Lots of ppl have thought they were gods eg Alexander the Great 330 BC. The thing about Christ is – no King after 0 AD can think that now. Also no outcast can now ever think they are too low for God, no matter how low we sink he’s been there before us and can look us in the eye. Christ makes the great person humble and the lowly person great.

Schizophrenics mmm is it possible they know things we don’t? But lack the ability to integrate it and share it? Is normalcy effective for infernal purposes? Absolutely. The illusion that everything is going normally is terrific for guiding people into the abyss. The chattering classes and the cultured despisers of Christianity think they’re fantastically sane. lol But I don’t know, are you really saying religious ideas increase the suffering of schizophrenics? Could it be that schizophrenics know they’re sick and want a doctor? I don’t know.

Dear Pericles...

you ask for a contempary account of Jesus of Nazereth, Son of God.
I can only offer you the gospels.. they are as close to contemporary as one could reasonably expect. Considering all other major figures of history of around that time.... the gospels are extremely worthwhile. To me they are without question the Word of God to man. Textual issues and discoveries simply refine and confirm that Word.

By all means search them out, and refer also to the worst higher critical scholarship. They can stand such a test.

Strangely enough, I find the hadith of Islam to be a very strong case for the accuracy of the gospels. A similar process, though the time between the gathering together of the information for the gospels was much much shorter than for the Hadith.

I think ultimately, it will come down to ones own heart, and willingness or lack thereof to see rather than just look, and to hear rather than just listen. The parables of Jesus are so easy to remember, and that's why so much of his teaching was in that form.

I find no motive in the gospels apart from bringing the Word of Salvation to mankind. I see no 'Church' vested interest, nor human benefit. So much of Christs teaching goes against the grain of human nature, it would have been long filtered out or modified if 'ulterior motive' became involved.

"He who hears my word, and does it, is like the man who built his house on the rock, and the storm and wind came.. and it stood"

take care