continued from previous post...
There is one last source that mentions Jesus. It mentions "Yeshua the Nazarene" & claims that he "practiced sorcery and enticed Israel astray" The source is the Talmud.
There are two problems however.
1) The Talmud wasn't written down until the 2nd Century CE and we don't know if these are earlier passages. There is no way to be sure.
2) In one passage Yeshua is mentioned as having five followers "Mattai, Nakkia, Netzer, Buni and Todah" NONE of these names are found in the New Testament.

Having said all that I hold that Jesus WAS a historical figure & here are the reasons why.

1) History was, until recently written about the rich and famous for the rich and famous. What was Jesus? To the roman's he was nothing but a foreign peasant from a fea-speck corner of their empire. That being so it's hardly surprising that no Roman historian writes about him.
It should be noted that Roman historians never even mentioned their own peasants yet we believe they exist...unless the nobility did all the hard work. :D

2) While it is true that the jews tended to be more interested in Religious figures than the Romans they were also obsessed with figures that opposed the hated Romans. Remember to the orthodox Jews Jesus was just a trouble-making upstart. So why should Jewish writers mention him?

3) We do have a number of locations of where followers of Jesus gathered to pray. The earliest is dated from the late 1st century CE. How do we know that christians gathered to pray there? Because the Chi Rho symbol [alpha & Omega to you non-latin speakers] is scrawled on the walls. As far as we know this is not associated with any other religion except christianity.

So there is SOME evidence that Jesus existed [or was believed to have existed] from the same era. Now does this PROVE that Jesus is God? No! But if we could supply proof then faith wouldn't be needed...would it?

Wellll well.. "my turn" :) Professor Pericles.. you and associate professor Bosk need to be taken aside in the kindest way:)

Firstly Josephus.. also mentions "James, Brother of Jesus, called Christ" and to my knowledge this has not been challenged. The other reference claimed by Bosk to be 'a Eusebian Christian insertion' is an argument from silence. When things are mentioned cannot be taken to be an indication of their falsehood, though I agree the argument carries a tiny amount of weight.

There is also the matter of the Arab version of Josephus, which tends to dilute the 'Christian-ness' of the passage, but clearly believes it to actually 'be genuine'

Then there is the disputed "James Ossuary" and some careful digging into 'who' disputes the "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" inscription, reveals some scholarly bias of the grandest proportion.
Those disputing the "Brother of Jesus" bit are Jewish, and the particular scholar involved was not an epigrapher, and claimed that the likelihood of 'Christians adding it because it agrees with their beliefs' is equally dodgy for HER, being Jewish and has the converse interest of proving it is NOT genuine. So, on the balance of probability, it seems genuine.

There is another way of approaching the subject of the Historical Jesus.
Start from the Bible, and see what turns up from history and archeology.

Luke is interesting in this regard.

Luke 3
-In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—
-when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea,
-Herod tetrarch of Galilee,
-his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and
-Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene— 2
-during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas

... the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.

The mention of the HighPriesthood of Annas AND Caiaphas is important.
You guys can search that one out :)

These tight historical ropes to verifiable and contemporary figures of authority (Josephus says "as well as Abilene, which had been governed by Lysanias.") leave me with the confident and firm foundation, of the Scriptures.

numbat, thanks for the effort you put into the detailed point by point rebuttal of my previous posts. Unfortunately your discussion seems to have been lost in the post and all that has made it up is your summary and a new item for discussion.

New material - the length of eternity. I assume that we are not heading off into theoretical physics and speculations about the nature of time (the possibility that it might come to an end some billions of years in the future etc). I'd agree that eternity is a bloody long time even if it ends in 20 billion years.

I'm guessing that you wish to tie that back to the current discussion so I'll take a guess at your intent and proceed.
Why I'm not particularly concerned about the length of eternity.
- nothing much I can do to change it
- I don't expect to have any awareness of any more of it than the next 30 to 50 years of it.
- If I am around for it the chances of me being able to make any kind of decision which imacts how I spend it are amazingly small.
- If the christain gospel is true I really don't want to spend eternity hanging around pandering to the christain gods need to have worshipers or finding out about the next sick twist he has in store for his creation.
- It would appear that the christain god if he exists does not want me. A couple of your fellow posters are quite strongly of the view that I was never a christain dispite about 23 years of submission and openness to that God. I can take a hint if it is made clear enough.
- Almost no chance that the christain gospel bears any relation to how a wise all knowing god would order the universe or eternity, personally I prefer the reincarnation option if I'm going to have an afterlife - "keep trying till I get it right".

I look forward to seeing the missing detail behind your previously posted summary.

R0bert

RObert: Like the irony aimed at me, I apologise if I offended you.
It seems that you and your fellow non-believers just do not understand eternity. Not 20 million years a bloody sight lot longer.
The 'christian' gospel you learned from what I can ascertain from your messages is the wrong one.
Maybe you were taught religion - man made anti-Christian religion with a dictatorial know-all well paid ministry.
This tongues business - tongues are languages, Paul went to different countries with the gift of languages. He did not babble, gabble or gobble and sound like a demented turkey.
The true Gospel is absolutely amazing and outstanding no pandering to an egotistic God. No sick twist He is way beyond that actually that is a human trait and we do it so well.
Again we are all different and yes the Eternal does want you, of course you laugh it off but the strange thing is that He not only wants you He also wants me as well. To me in the past I used to think that if this God wants to have a Father/Son relationship with me then that proved that He was not wise or All-knowing.Yet He wants, really wants us both, please hang on to this . numbat

Numbat, your just another member of the metronome mob. No substance, no answer, no fact. Just ridiculous statements of fantasy, going click clack back and forth.

When's the last time you were in eternity, or glimpsed it. Eternity doesn't exist, nor time, their concepts, with no relevance to reality. There is an accessible past, but not an accessible future, there isn't even a now, just evolving change.

You rave over this heavenly paradise, yet how many of you have actually experienced what is on the other side. More than 90% of people having near death experiences, reject the religious concept. My own experiences cut the religious bonds, showing me what is and isn't there.

My experiences opened within me insights that almost debilitated me, until I understood their relevance. That experience breaks the bonds of indoctrination, allowing you to see through the illusions and view the reality of our world.

Reincarnation is a more feasible, rational explanation for our souls journey. Just one that follows that philosophy, has more caring for the life on this planet, than the monotheistic population. If I had a material belief, then I'd certainly follow Buddhism and reincarnation, being rational and caring beleifs by their example.

I suppose that all forms of life within the universe would be in your paradise, all being gods creatures. How come he hasn't informed you of their existence, or do the metronome mob still adhere to there being no other intelligent life in the universe, just like all the other facts you refuse to accept. If he talks to you, then he would give you proof of his existence to show others and reveal his universe.

Existence is made up of many different dimensions, filled with different life forms and understandings The next evolutionary step for us, once we have thrown of the shackles of our superstitions and fears, is to move our psyche to the next dimension. Highly rational and logical, considering during life here, we move through different dimensional outlooks from conception to the grave.

Have you noticed that its the unbelievers of the "christian" god get personal and insulting?? "Metronome mob" was alchemist's favourite!
By the way alchemist, God has revealed himself to us through the prophets, and the bible. Check em out. Prophets of the bible...100% accurate. Nostradamus...5% accurate.
Like I said in a previous post, satan is a deceiver. The fight in this world is not against the flesh but of the spititual realms, good and evil, jesus and satan. And satan will do all in his power to turn people away from God. i.e, masquerading as spirits of lost loved ones, having us believe in reincarnation or aliens, etc etc.Thats My opinion though. ANd also like I said, in the end, our opinion doesnt count one iota when the end comes, if that opinion is wrong.
I had many beleifs in many things before I became a christian, all of which I believed to be the truth. Doesnt mean it was the truth does it. We all have a choice.
God gave us that choice ( I beleive), to choose to love him. As a mother, theres nothing mre beautiful than my children putting their arms around me and saying "I love you". WOuld it be as beautiful if they were programmed to say it rather than it coming from their own hearts?? As with God, he wants us to choose to love him. Thats why we aint robots, but have freewill.

I noticed theres a few mentioning evolution, and yet regard those of us who beleive in god foolish. Its a belief system. Well, so is evolution. You need a whole lot more faith to beleive in evolution than you do in God. In my humble opinion!