The alchemist: You are still here abusing those who have differing opinions so SURELY! that is proof - even to a self proclaimed genius like you that you did not die that time. Next time - maybe!
Any, repeat any scientist knows of the VAST gulf between the living and non-living. I can shoot an animal and it is DEAD or if you prefer DED, not living, devoid of life, incapable of movement, that's DEAD!! and it has buckley's of coming back to life. You did NOT return from the dead so maybe you are not so special. numbat

Pericles, in relation to your question.

yes there is a science called textural critisism which says that the more copies found, the more they can be compared, the more accurate they can be assumed to be.

And the closer the date of writing to the original the more reliable.

With regards to your question What did they copy from?

Most are copies of copies which enevitably find their way back to the autographs (originals)

Interesting note is that these copies were found all over the known world in such a small time frame, within less than two hundred years.

There is evidence the four Gospels were circulating together by 120 AD.

and the fact that they were all written within the lifetime of witnesses, people who could in fact reject the claims, give the gosples unique standing as reliable source materials.

if you as still sceptical we have enough information from sources outside the bible that we could outline numerous aspects of life of Jesus.

We would know that;
• Jesus actually did live and breathe
• He was a Jewish teacher
• Many people believe he performed healings and exorcisms
• Some believed He was the messiah
• He was rejected by the Jewish leaders
• He was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius
• That despite his shameful death his followers believed He lived and faith in him spread beyond the borders of Palestine until there were multitudes of them in Rome by 64ad
• All kinds of people from the cities and the country side, slave and free, rich and poor, men and women worshipped Him as God.

There is far too much here to simply ignore

Let me try again.

">>Tacitus Written in aprox AD 100, earliest copy made aprox AD 1100, time lapse between copies 1000 years... Caesars Gallic wars Written 58-50BC, earliest copy AD 900, Time lapse between copies 950 years, number of copies 10...Homers Iliad... was written down around 800BC, Earliest copy made around AD 200, Time lapse between copies 1000 years, number of copies 650...<<

What did they copy from?"

You replied:

>>With regards to your question What did they copy from?

Most are copies of copies which enevitably find their way back to the autographs (originals)<<

So, how does this mesh with your statement

>>And the closer the date of writing to the original the more reliable.<<

Surely, if there was a time lapse of 1000 years between copies, this is a greater assurance that there have been no changes - you have the original in front of you, n'est-ce pas? On the other hand, if a thousand years later I was copying a copy of a copy of a copy...?

Even allowing your list of "this we know", nowhere on that list can you find contemporary evidence of miracles.

The best you can come up with is "Many people believe he performed healings and exorcisms", but surely their belief is coloured by the retrospective stories? "I heard someone say that fifty years ago this guy Jesus turned water into wine" is not exactly compelling.

Once again, I'm not saying it didn't happen; I'm only saying that there is a deafening lack of evidence for it. And in the absence of evidence, it is obvious that you will either choose to believe, as you do, or you won't.

In the meantime, it is interesting to see the creation of a mighty edifice of "he did this, he did that" stories, from such flimsy foundations.

I find it amazing that alchemist can say the bible, god, jesus, religion etc etc is fantasy, false, blah blah, and then come up with that story of reincarnation. Heehee. It did make me laugh I msut say. How can our spirit or soul whatever you believe it to be, jump from this body to the next everytime you die?? Thats much more far fetched than a living God.

All this about the gospels not being a good source for our information. These guys wrote something that they were eyewitnesses to. It may have been 30 or so years later, but they were still eyewitnesses. Imagine we live in a time with no media, no movies, no tv, nothing. Would we beleive the stories we heard of the holocaust to be false, just cos no one wrote about it 50 years ago. Of course not. Cos the people who were there, those who lived it, are still around to tell us. Just as the disciples were. Who all by the way, went to their deaths for this tale they were telling. You might get one or 2 lunatics willing to die for a lie, but would you get all those men to tell the lie, stick to it, and then die for it?? I doubt it.
Something else to think about. If you went to court to see a man up for trial who raped your daughter, and the judge let him off because it was his first offence, you'd be outraged at this crook they call a judge. Would he be a loving judge? His verdict isnt just. Well God is a just God, and all sin needs to be punished. When God punishes someone, it aint cos he's a cruel God, but cos he;s a just God. If he let people off for their sin, he'd be just as crook as that judge.

Spot on Robert. Its not worth trying to get a discussion going is it? Sigh.

Coach - when I said noone had answered my previous post on slavery, etc you were supposed to look back at that original post and read it. If you had you would have seen all the quotes were from the New Testament and then you would have had something to answer.

The reference to the Canaanites was in answer to Martin - Martin brought up the Old Testament not me and he is a christian. Go back and read his post and the link he gives and then you may get mine in context.

I was not talking about blood sacrifice - I was talking about human sacrifice. Blood sacrifice can refer to animals not just humans.

And the snippet you clipped from my post proves my point and not yours - you may not realise it but others probably will.

Edi - sorry about the gender mix up.

The Caananites are an historical race and they weren't giants - they were quite short of stature. You may also know them as the Phoenicians. They traded and settled throughout the meditteranean. Some settled in Carthage on the shores of Africa and they fought major wars with Rome (the Punic Wars) just two hundred years before Christ, they founded Marseilles and their ancient colonies and descendents are everywhere they weren't wiped out they just eventually intermingled with other races.

Solomon was best friends with the Canaanite King, King Hiram of Tyre who gave heaps of materials for the building of the temple of Jehovah that Solomon is so famous for building. The architect for the temple was another Hiram who was half Hebrew and half Canaanite.

The Canaanites were the first race to develop an alphabet and the Greeks modelled their alphabet on it as did all the races of the mediterranean - that includes our alphabet. They were brilliant traders, fabulous seafarers. They had huge cities on the coast of Palestine surrounded by very thick walls. They grew flax and made fine linen, they were the source of the best purple dyes and great copper mines. There lands were rich in crops of grain and grape, fig and date. The little Israelite goatherding tent dwellers who had just stumbled out of 40 years in the wilderness had reason to be frightened of attacking them, they were pretty pathetic in comparison (at that time). They actually never matched them. The closest they got was Solomon - and as I said the friend Solomon was most proud of was the Canaanite King Hiram of Tyre.

Really this list is too Christianity focussed. We should be talking more about the Norse Asatru religion and the Greek Pagan religion as they have an enormous influence on the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe' and the entire series. The Greek Pagan religion is still outlawed in Greece. More christian intolerance.

Hell was actually a norse/germanic pagan heaven. They did see Hell as being under the ground and the entrance to hell was through holes in the ground (especially wells) and it was a place of light and holy fire - although it wasn't ruled by a God but by a Goddess known as Hell, Hel, Ella, Holle - well you get the point different versions of her name. I don't mind going to Hell. :) Hell was originally the ruler of the three realms: the sky, the earth and the underground. Her name has been variously translated as meaning 'that which is hidden', 'holy' and 'all' (there is an etymological link with the two last meanings). Other words that share an etymological link with her name are our words health, heal and whole. Pretty neat place to go to huh?