Robert: Extremes aren't isolated incidents that float on their own little islands - they are the tip of a very great mountain. Hitler had a huge amount of support from Christians within Germany and from axis countries. He had the support of 1600 years of Roman Catholic tradition.

Currently today this 'christian' attitude is sneaking back into politics with the Bush administration - not to say that they are going as far as the 'final solution' but torture, incarceration without charges, and invasion and occupation based on patent lies is a big step backwards in human rights. It is happening right now.

The theories of Eugenics/Race purification were most developed in America. The Nazis had a mutual relationship with them: http://bethuneinstitute.org/documents/naziconnection.html I put this in to show that the climate that created the holocaust had worldwide elements and not just German.

"- Is wrongdoing within the christain church something which appears to be widespread or is it something remarkable for it's rarity?" I would say that it was widespread for 1600 years but that it has improved - there still are abuses.

"- Are the christians I deal with in day to day life remarkable for the integrity of their lives or are they more likely to be the ones I most have to watch out for because they will put themselves first at the expense of others?" The christians I have mixed with over the years do fall primarily into the second category definitely. I could give you a list of their abusive behaviour but it would be so much more than 250 words. On the positive side - I have always hoped that decent ones are out there somewhere - but I rarely meet them.

"- Are the christains posting on OLO more tolerant and respectful of others than those with different belief structures?" Nope

Edi & Rob - you know I really hoped that someone would comment on Ghandi. Everyone is quick to discount Hitler as not being a christian or not being a true christian but noone comments on Ghandi and his christian beliefs and practices. Is it christian bigotry that stops any of you from making a comment on my post mentioning that Ghandi modelled his practice of Satya Graha (non-violent resistanced) on Christ? Can't a Hindu have christian values and have done some good with it? But Ghandi was the tip of the mountain too, Ghandi had millions of Hindus and yes moslems behind him.

Robert and Edi All my posts started because I wanted to question the posts that were so sure how much better Christians are than other people. Even Roberts post says christians are remarkable for the integrity of their lives. Remarkable compared to whom? And you think that is you being tolerant and respectful? I have only ever found individual people who are remarkable for the integrity of their lives - and I have found them in every religion and non religion.

Some of the christian posts say or intimate christians are good and better than others and I say not really - look what christians have done and see other people who are not christians can do good things too. And the answer I get from christians is that I am mean for saying what actually happened and that christians that do bad things aren't true christians and that christians are better than other people. So we are back to the beginning and I have achieved nothing. And so i give up.

I don't usually bother viewing the forums on this site (usually don't have time), but I have found this whole discussion fascinating. Thank you guys for all participating in the debate.

I agree wholeheartedly that Christians are not necessarily 'better' people than anyone else. We should be/could be but we're not. Unfortunately, as humans, we make exactly the same mistakes as anyone else. As Christians, however, God gives us the strength and the power and the will to do better. Unfortunately, again, many choose not to use this. Whether these 'Christians' are true Christians, only God knows. As was mentioned previously, Christians show by their 'fruit' their true colours.

Jesus tells us "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord... Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" (Matthew 7:21-23).

So guys, when you suggest that 'Christians' fall short of your expectations, remember that God weeps as well.

You are right when suggesting we are too intolerant. However, our Bible is what we know to be the Word of God. And within this book Jesus tells us that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". (John 14:6). So forgive us when we seem rather pig-headed about it, but we truly can't believe any differently if we are to believe the words of Christ.

Thank you again for a truly insightful forum. This has reminded me of what a bad job we are doing in trying to spread the Word of Christ. We ARE no better than anyone else. But some of us are aiming to please the heart of God. There are many non-Christians out there who do put us to shame. Maybe this forum will incite a few of us to show a bit more love...

:-)

Axiliz, I think that you have misunderstood me fairly dramatically (or I have done some very poor phrasing).

My point is that if the christain gospel is true and christains are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of the Living God as most will claim and if their God is doing a transforming work in their lives they should be remarkable people (not for the reasons Hitler was remarkable).

That is not what I observed in my years as a christian or since. My views are pretty much identical to what you state when you say "I have only ever found individual people who are remarkable for the integrity of their lives - and I have found them in every religion and non religion." That single statement if true negates the entire message of a christain God who works in the lives of his people.

Parts of the christain church spend a lot of time telling themselves and others how much happier and joyful they are than non christains, they talk about the transforming power of God but that's not really the way it is. Its propaganda to keep christains going and to try and entice people into christainity who might be feeling dissatisfied with life. See coach's original post for an example - I suspect that he almost believes it himself. It is hard for christains to see outside the box, the message is continually being reinforced and expression or consideration of doubts is not welcome.

Have a look at the responses to the points I have raised, there have been a number of attempts to portray me as having major issues rather than deal with the possibility that they might be legitimate observations or conclusions. Any doubts about God are treated as a problem with the person expressing the doubts (who really has no right to question God etc). It can take a lot to break out of that stuff.

Cheers
R0bert

P.S.

I loved the Narnia film. I thought it stayed true to the book, as much as possible. I read the books as an adult and loved them.

And contrary to the opinions of others, I believe that the people trying to 'push' films like Narnia, the Jesus Film and The Passion are doing so with a heart for trying to teach the world about Christ. What they accomplish with this, we may never know. But praise God that someone is out there trying.

Yes, the marketing and materialism that go hand-in-hand with these films tends to cheapen the message. But that doesn't mean the message in them can't be used for good. So what if someone's making money out of it? There are many secular movies that can provide good messages as well...

So to other Christians out there - Don't criticise someone else's ministry, just because it's not the way you would do it. Instead praise God that they are spreading Christ's message. Remember, even Paul was criticised...

:-)

Aziliz,
Christians who are born again, at the very least have a set of moral guidlines that they believe are directly from God, ie the 10 comandments, and are not relative to cultural influences which is so pervasive in todays religion of secular humanism that trys to determine moral values based on what the majority feels is acceptalble, so in that regard at least they start off in the right direction. do they allways follow it? no! Do secular humanists follow their ever shifting values? no!

What can be detemined is that with the shift in cultural influences over the last 10 to 30 years, and you only need to switch on the T.V. (Time Vaporiser) to see that, the banning of the bible in schools, banning of prayer, the teaching of a life which has ultimately no value other than that which benefits a degraded society. its not hard to see the direction we are headed morally with our shifting values.

With respect to a man such as Gandi, i could only hope that my children would have the moral Character he displayed, and there are many many individuals who display that character which are not heard of on the popular media.

However the BIG question is ultimately about you and me! what are we doing to rid the evil in our own lives, Gandi is dead and so are most of his original followers, the factions are still there and peace is still evasive. But what can we do to be better people, we can point to as many others as we like, but what are we doing to protect our children from this perverse culture.

The daughter of a freind of mine had just started high school and she was confronted by girls her own age talking about oral sex with boys, this kid has just finished primary school for goodness sake.

If you dont at the least have a standard to live by that is absolute, you will set your own. Is todays society doing better or worse?
but wait there's more...an attempt to answer Robert