It is useless to argue about religion with religious people- they operate from a completely different paradigm from those who prefer to use their logic and rational observation.
The crux of the matter is that they operate on "faith" in the existence of their God, and subsequent manifestations.
Some say that they have a "personal relationship" with God- by this I think they mean that they actually have conversations with God.
I can't say whether God exists or not. I have no objective information about that.
Certainly it is difficult, if not impossible to explain the existence of the Universe. Whether this implies a "God" I cannot say-I simply don't know.
It would really be nice to have the certainty that religious people have. God has never literally "spoken" to me, and I've been on the Earth long enough.
All I can see is that religion has been used over the centuries to justify horrendous injustices and wars. It has also been responsible for good things too. So on balance, I'd say that it all boils down to human nature in the end. Religion really hasn't made much difference, either way. On the other hand, religion can be used, like any ideology, by some of its proponents to cause a lot of trouble.
You don't have to be religious to be a good person and to do right by your fellow man.
This subject is useless to discuss, because you will never change the opinion of the religious people, and those who are rational will not change their opinion either.
I personally am quite happy for people to be religious if they want to be, as long as it makes them happy. Why not? I just hope they can be aware of what it can lead them to do, as evidenced by history, and make sure that their actions are not harmful to other people.

Froggie

I agree with you 100%, which is precisely why I have refrained from posting much on this thread.

However, Martin's diatribe to Aziliz was so completely over the top, I just couldn't help myself.

The common theme appears to be that those who do not believe exactly the same way as themselves are treated with contempt and are condemned. Look at R0bert, who was really trying to say "hey, my POV is as valid as yours", that's all.

I am completely at a loss to understand the fundamentalist - I guess they don't want any converts - if they did one would expect them to show a little consideration for the POV's of others.

Cheers

BD, I noticed a distinct change of subject in the post you addressed to me this morning. Is the reality that we all use our understanding of what God should be to determine the validity of claims about a particular God a topic you’d rather avoid. I can understand why you might not prefer to explore that particular concept.

From my perspective what sparked the particular sub-plot to this thread was coaches description of the horrid misery of the life of a non-christain

“I was reflecting over the weekend on how our non-Christian friends must feel and live outside Jesus’ family; putting myself in their moccasins for a minute… one long minute… I was horrified.” Etc.

I attempted to respond to coaches obvious desire to understand the view point of a non-christain who has put some effort into these issues, he seemed to have put the moccasins on over his christian romper stomper boots. The discussion has flowed from that point.

Deep seated issues about a violent god – I don’t think so, just as you choose to reject concepts of god which are beneath your own ideals and standards so I reject the concept of a god who will order the slaughter of men, women, children, babes in arms etc yet doesn’t take action against those claiming to follow him who molest children. A god who will kill a couple of young guys for mixing up the wrong type of incense as they seek to worship him but allows the US televangelist industry to flourish.

Generally I take no delight in attacking christians - occasional exceptions :), if your God exists the failure of the church to show his nature is the failure of that God to empower his people to live as they should and to discipline those who claim his name but refuse to live as they should. If he does not exist one of the proofs is the nature of the church and the reality that those who make up the church are on average no better or worse than the rest of humanity.

R0bert

Think about this. Look how much we have advanced with technology in the last 30-50 years. We all know there is literally billions of Suns out there. Its most likely that a lot of the suns would also be large enough to pull other planets into it’s gravity field thus creating other Solar Systems. Then most of those systems will have a planet that is not to far from it’s sun but also not to close. Meaning just right conditions like on our earth to birth and sustain “Life”. Now say that that planet that does have life also has intelligent life. (This cannot be discarded without denying the existence of our own intellect). Then imagine that that planet is tens of thousands of years older then our own planet and its progress through evolution. Again, so much advancement has happened in the last 30-50 years and will be continual with the eventuality of riding a shuttle in space just like riding a bus (You know what I’m getting at). So they are advanced enough that they have conquered space travel and eventually stumble over our planet. Our planet is very primitive at that stage and new experiences are everyday occurrences so nothing is disregarded. They meet many of these space men “That come from the Heavens” (Might be what they called their Home planet) and through folk law and stories they have lived on. A very primitive Stephen King author writes a great book about it. Like all Journo’s and Authors the truth is stretched for a good read. But then he dies. The book is lost but found much later by an early fundamental extremist with wild views of social oppression and blackmail and start's to preach the book. The rest is history.

(Before I am Drawn and Quartered and hosed with holy water this is just a theory. The first half bout the evolutionary advantage by “Aliens” and their discovery of earth I DO ponder. The rest was just a bit of comic relief but might just be true. Remember what Fox Mulder Said….)

You are not a mind (or heart) reader Martin. My post was intended to inform and not out of hatred. The point wasn't that Christians were evil, the point was that they have done absolutely horrendous things in the name of God, just like the Hindus, Moslems, Pagans, Buddhists, etc and just as others have done in the name of a political ideal. This was to counteract the posts that indicated that Christianity had *only* been a force for good historically.

As for your diatribe about hatred - I agree with you. And with Christianity the very fact that it is "totalitarian" in its exclusivity, that it believes that "they are perfect and others are perfectly depraved" is my objection to it. You are quite right - this breeds hatred and self-conceit.

In regards to the persecution of the Jews and Pagans I would point you towards http://www.religioustolerance.org. You will find that it can quote the church councils and the papal bulls and the laws of christian political leaders throughout history in a properly documented way. They also have a very balanced report on Pope Pius XII - whom, incidently, I did not accuse of anti-semitism.

For a good site on Hitler's religious leaning go to http://web.archive.org/web/20030813020830/http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html which is a list of quotes from Hitler. Beware of the book "Hitler's Table Talk" which is disputed - http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Hitler's germany actually persecuted pagans and many minor cults including: Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft (the main Germanic Pagan Movement), Asatruers (Norse Pagans), Gypsies, Freemasons, Theosophists, Anthroposophists, Seven Day Adventists, Scientologists, etc which hardly makes the Nazis pagan sympathisers. On the contrary the Roman Catholic church had an agreement with Hitler called the Reichskonkordat that assured that the Roman Catholic Religion would not be persecuted but supported. This is actually a reversal of earlier policies on the Roman Catholic Church by previous administrations so stands out as particular support by Hitler. Hitler was a Roman Catholic with a Germanic slant.

Aziliz.
you need to look closer at what you write:

"Christianity" is one term you need to define much more tightly before 'blaming' it by proxy via 'Christians' for the 'evil' which you mention as being perpetrated in its name.

The term arose first in Antioch some short few years after Christs resurrection. The followers of Christ were called 'Christians', it was probably a derogatory name at first.

That name in turn, is linked back to Christ Himself and His teaching, death and resurrection.

You must separate things 'said to be done' in the name of a faith, from the actual teaching/doctrines of that faith. Where you see a discrepancy between the faith, and the behavior of its supposed followers, please condemn the followers, for NOT FOLLOWING the the faith rather than condemn the faith itself.

Rob. you mentioned 'Why does God allow' and then you follow with the names of various tyrants etc.. but 2 things. Look around you now, do you see those major tryants in power? (Hitler.. Mussolini.. Tojo/Jap militarists, Pol Pot....) *looks around*... nope.. can't see them.

Put yourself in Pauls shoes at Lystra "Lord.. whyyyyy *OUCH*are u *yEOWWWWWW*,allowing these *arrrrgh* people to STONE me now ? you called *OUCCCCCCH* me to yourself.. u appointed *AAAAAAARGH* me to proclaim *GEE THAT ONE HURT* you to the world.. does it have *YEEEOWW* to be like THIS? *THUD*

Bruised...bloodied...left for dead....

ACTS 14
19Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead. 20But after the disciples had gathered around him, he got up and went back into the city.

Just priot to this incident. God had healed a cripple through him... and he had seen the power of the God who called him. But now.. he is being stoned..

God is glorified in our weakness and our faithfulness during trials.
Our weakness, points to His grace and sustaining strength.