Cont

Rob
Please read this without the contempt you seem to have for Christianity. I don’t mean to offend but please be open to this post.

I don't believe you were ever a Christian, you were a religious church goer like probably 80% of the traditional attendees and you were rightfully discouraged by their behavior and hypocrisy, but I don’t think a Christian in a spirit filled sense.

1) You place a considerable amount of responsibility on Gods transformation of the ‘indwelt’ believer,
yet He can only work His will when the believer allows it.

As at the beginning, we still have a ‘free will’ , and just as our coming to faith was a choice, so is allowing Him to work in us.

Its about trusting God enough with continued steps of faith, to make the changes in our lives and to direct us where He needs us to go.
If we’re created for a purpose, it only stands to reason that we need to discern that purpose from the Creator Himself. But, ‘its up to us’, again, our choice.

Just as God will not force anyone to believe He exists, nor will He force His will on anyone even after they come to faith. I discovered this five years after I came to faith.

Sorry I know I’m preaching forgive me, I’m just hoping to bring some form of an answer to you.

2) Jesus Christ is called The Savior, important to realize this was His first objective.
Reconciling a fallen humanity with its Creator. A corrupt creation cannot relate to a perfect creator.

Regardless how good a person thinks they are, they can never be good enough.

Christ did not come to make bad men good, BUT to give dead men life.

The Ten Commandments came for man to experience the futility of attempting to keep them, and therefore realise his need of a savior.

So opposite to how we think.

Yet he has made a provision for us, and it’s the rejection of this provision that will ultimately condemn us.

edi, so far you have not given me any reason for contempt of your posts, I disagree with much of your content but that is a different issue. I try and read each post and give it fair consideration except where people are clearly playing standard cop outs. The assumption that I was never a christian comes close but I think you mean it in good faith so I will try and answer.

I think this will be the last time I'll bother answering the suggestion that I was not a christian. I'll never prove it to those who can't except it and I really don't want to keep on that topic, I've tried to move on from it.

If I was not a christain then
- No evangelical can be confident they are. I did the asking, repentance, submission etc. Not perfect but no shortcuts either. Over 20 years of active and serious involvement in evangelical christianity. It's probably safer for you guys to believe that I was a christain and that it is possible to turn away otherwise any confidence in you might have in your own salvation is null and void.
- Being a christain requires more than what is preached by pretty much the entire evangelical christain church. Back in the late 70's early 80's there were some people preaching that you were not saved without the evidence of speaking in tongues, that is about the only extra step I have heard put forward in Australian christainity. I'm guessing that none of you require handling of poisonous snakes during worship.
- Christains are an even smaller minority than you guys want it to be. I assume that the large percentage from census surveys quoted by some on this site to justify trying to enforce christain values onto the rest of us bears no relation to the actual number of christains but that the number of actual christains bears some relation to the number who take the christain faith seriously. I'm happy to concede that there are lots less if you really want me to.

R0bert

You bunch of <insert profanity> was waannkers ... (actually wasn't as bad as you think... Jesus used worse...)

I was just seaching on google for the 12 ancient greek gods for a Uni assignment and your thread came up...

1. There is no god... stop wasting your <insert profanity here> time.

2. Anyone remotely invloved in religion is either

a> an abused recoverer...

or

b> someone wishing to abuse/ control the feeble minded person for position... profit or... power.

I am not saved / born again / forgiven / chosen...

Just responsible... FOR MY OWN ACTIONS....

Just wasting everybodies time...

get laid, have a smoke and ENJOY LIFE....

Cheers

Johcol

PS I have tried to remove the profanity... jesus... wow that got thru

Sorry Robert. I only read your one post and I misunderstood :)

Edi - Brought up a christian I felt very passionate about it. I wanted to be a missionary. I didn't just turn up at church and go through the motions. In my early teens I asked for a bible. I was shaking with reverence when I began to read it. The Word of God! After 800 pages of blood guts and gore where "good" guys seemed pretty "bad" I threw up. I couldn't stand it any more so I skipped to the New Testament. It was a real relief in comparison but the Revelations produced a lot of anxiety. Now I suffered anxiety.

When I was 16 I mixed with a group of Thais who were predominantly Buddhists. I was attracted to them because they were so polite, kind and caring. I wanted to convert the Buddhists to save them but I was forced to confront that these were good people with spiritual feelings despite not being Christians. It was then I realised how deeply Christianity made me believe other religions are evil, that anyone who was not christian would wind up in hell, the pit, the place of grinding and gnashing of teeth, cast out from the sight of god for all eternity. I would never had to truly confront this if I did not have these people among my dearest and closest friends.

It still took me five years to get over the incredible fear that the Bible instilled in me. The Bible is full of threats and fear mongering about being eternally punished. I had to acknowledge how fearful it made me. I stopped believing.

I felt so free! Allelulia! I am a born again non-christian! Such a weight lifted off my shoulders. No longer did I have to worry about my kind friends rotting in hell. No more having to disrespect all my friends and a large portion of the world's beliefs. I felt safe to be curious, inquisitive and interested in things, I could question things and listen, and read and pay attention.

I could respect Jesus without swallowing the fish whole. I could say - I don't like that bit!

I read the bible again with my new freedom and saw that the Gospels were approx 25% threats and exhortations to have a mindless, unquestioning 'faith'.

The New testament is the source of the 'divine right of Kings' (dictators) to rule 1 Pet. 2:13,14 Rom.13:1-2 Luke 19:12-27

Christianity approves of slavery and says that slaves must do the bidding of their master even if he is cruel and beats them. 1Pet. 2:18-29 Ephesians 6:5-6 1 Timothy 6:1-2 Matt. 10:24 Matt. 24:45-46 1Tim. 6:1-5 Titus 2:9-10.

Christians shouldn't mix with unbelievers 2 Corinthians 6:14-17

Paul lays a curse on someone Timothy: 1:19-20

That jews will be cast into hell Matt: 8:11-12

That you must pay all taxes Luke 20:21-26

'Top Five signs you are a Fundamentalist Christian' (copy)

1 You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

2 You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving.

3 You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

4 Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees etc, etc.

5 You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

Aziliz, thanks. Great posts. You've expressed the freedom that comes from getting out from under that particular yoke very well. Still I've no particular interest in insisting others get free of it, their life, their choice as long as they don't try and force it on me or expect me to live by their rules.

Some of the fundies do know the bible fairly well, they just have their tools for ignoring the bits they are uncomfortable with - OT fullfilled in the new or culturalising bits that are not phrased that way. Others don't appear to know it at all well. I guess most of us do that with aspects of our lives.

Anyway thanks for the thoughtful posts you have brought to this thread. We have drifted somewhat from the original article but that is not particularly uncommon and has possibly been worthwhile, it is a shame that some of the christain posters have not put a bit more effort into responding to the points we have made rather than looking for cop outs and the like but I guess that was to be expected. At least edi has played fairly straight.

R0ber