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The Forum > Article Comments > After Cronulla, life goes on in sun city > Comments

After Cronulla, life goes on in sun city : Comments

By Natasha Cica, published 20/1/2006

Natasha Cica examines the aftermath of Sydney race riots.

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Natasha doesn't bring anything new – but is trying to spread the guilt around so at the end of the day it is all good and forgotten and we can all get on with admiring our beautiful city again in peace and harmony.

Facts from previous discussions on OLO have clearly indicated that racism exists and is part of every human. To sweep it aside as if it has never happened or will never happen again is just wishful thinking.

I think the following insertion is more of an exploratory nature – maybe even challenging and irritating to the average bystander – than simply factual :

>> … Islamic Friendship Association of Australia's reminder that many Muslims call Australia home and they are just as happy to see the flag flying high as any other Australians<<
Posted by coach, Friday, 20 January 2006 10:10:04 AM
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Coach,

Previous discussions do not show that racism exists – especially in relation to Cronulla. There was much disagreement on it. It is still a matter of individual opinion.

Certain matters will not be swept under the carpet, thanks to public outcry, now that the police officer who didn’t act on the video showing the attack of a Lebanese gang on a man has been replaced by a more ‘tenacious’ officer, according to the Commissioner.

A bad attack of PC was the real problem.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 20 January 2006 11:27:08 AM
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Does it really matter whether the Muslims care if the flag flies or not? It isn't important enough to think about.
What matters is where were the police......positioned when they should have been doing their duty ?
And where will they be the next time an event of this nature arises? Because it is for certain there will be a next time, the lid will not be able to be kept on this boiling pot for long.
And Australian citizens have a right to be protected from the violence of an unrestrained section of society.
Posted by mickijo, Friday, 20 January 2006 1:40:32 PM
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So the upshot of this piece is who will have the resources to creatively play the race card and what have the political players done so far that’s of any merit.

I thought this would be a deeper analysis of post Cronulla riots, but alas, it’s just Dr Natasha Cica, [Sydney-based communications and strategy consultant & adviser to federal parliamentarians] hanging out her shingle for business. Well,why not, can't hurt.

Nat, Perhaps a qualitative survey that gauges how voters who recently floated and flew here see a better chance of converting to being “home grown” by voting either Lib or Lab or Green? From this whoever gets your services could get real crafty with their spin and rub.

Here are a few sample questions for the survey you might consider.

1. Do you think the riots were caused by:

A. cultural differences
B. Racial and cultural difference
C. An earthquake in the Timorese sea
D. I’d rather not answer this question cos it might seem unpatriotic and seditious.

2. Do you think Malcolm Turnbull is a good bloke?

A. Yes.
B. No
C. I don’t know what a bloke is
D. Yes, especially when he was the Prime Minister in the 70’s

3. Complete the following phrase. ‘I still call Australia

A. Australia
B. Home
C. Down under
D. Using my home telephone
E. Terra Nullius

4. The television series Kath and Kim is a

A. An SBS documentary about the urban lifestyles of white middle-class Australians
B. A drama series about male menopause
C. A New Zealand comedy about social security cheats living in Australia
D. A brilliant piece of iconographic comedy developed by ABC despite its funding cuts and entrenched paranoia.

5.Alan Jones is a

A. An exotic specie of parrot bought into Australia in the first fleet.
B. A multimillionaire broadcaster
C. A prophet
D. An unelected federal backbench politician.

Just for fun I predict Leigh would answer : C, D, E, C, C,
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 20 January 2006 1:44:55 PM
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Just forgetting Natasha's vacuous article (not difficult) the story of today is (as other posters have said) the removal of a senior copper (Bray) by his boss (Commissioner Moroney).

Early today Moroney chose to use the "politician's defence" that he knew nothing of the Lebenese revenge attacks because "the videos" had not been brought to his attention.

By making such a shallow excuse Moroney expects to share some of the blame while most blame still goes to Bray. They are both serving their political masters well.

This little PR device is aimed at shielding the State Labor Government from criticism over its seeming inaction against Lebanese gangs.

Why the inaction? I suggest a combination of:

1. the police making a deal with the Lebenese gangs that - police won't finger the gangs in return for the gangs simmering down (a good temporary idea).

2. some police may be on the take from the gangs. May be suspected by the police hierarchy. They may not want the Lebanese gangs to reveal any embarassing details by leaking them to the Press (based on the Law of the Law that all gang activity corrupts SOME police)

3. the State Government are ever mindful that the Lebanese are a voting bloc in state elections whose sensibilities can't be ignored.

4. its likely the Federal Government also want the heat to go out of the Lebanese vs Anglo confrontation. So the Feds have not yet encouraged the State government to start cracking down.

All this suggests buzz off Cica this is still a serious issue which worries people.

Plantagenet
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 20 January 2006 5:12:17 PM
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Natasha is all focused on one incident at Cronulla which was the result of years of Middle Eastern thuggery that the locals had tolerated under the umbrella of political correctness and being afraid of being labelled racist by your ilk Natasha.

The left have been responsible for the breakdown of law and order and thus the rise if fear and the resultant racism.Anglo Saxions aren't the only racists Natasha,there are many other ethnic groups who make us look like a bunch of do gooders.

It has been now revealled that the police have sat on video tapes of Lebanese criminals for six weeks and have refused to act as a result of Govt directives or they are just too scared to act.

My son personally witnessed 20 Lebanese thugs trying to enter the Greenwood Pub on the 23rd Dec 2005.About 8 Police arrived and the thugs just pushed the police about and the police just backed off and waited for them to leave.My son commented on how pathetic and useless the police were.What happened to Morris Iemmas'new laws for riot and affray?They were enacted,yet his Govt have put first offender Cronulla Anglos in gaol and granted them no bail.

Only two of the 200 Lebanese rioters at Maroubra and Brighten Le Sands have been arrested to date.The police have only acted due to pressure from the your dreaded "Shock Jocks"

How about addressing some real issues Natasha,instead of hiding behind your pathetic PC visions of Anglos ruining your Multi- Cultural Utopia?Your leftist colleagues have perverted the the concept of Multiculturalism by telling new arrivals that they need not show allegiance to Australia or respect the dominant culture that affords them so much prosperity.This is the result and you try to shift the blame to those racist Anglos at Cronulla.

How about some honesty Natasha?
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 20 January 2006 5:32:59 PM
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Arjay,

Some clarification please.

• What were the other incidents of Middle Eastern thuggery?

• How have the Left instrumental in the “breakdown of law and order and thus the rise if fear and the resultant racism”

• What evidence do you have that police deliberately “sat on video tapes” or refused to act to act because they were under govt directives?

• What evidence can you provide to support your claim that police only acted because of "Shock Jocks"?

• Where in the article does Natasha espouse a PC multicultural perspective?

• And finally, were the aliens that abducted you greenish with scaly skin and bulbous eyes and spoke a dialect that sounded middle eastern?
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 20 January 2006 7:12:31 PM
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Ranier,

Very droll. Wrong about Malcolm Turnbull, though. He's too far to the left for me.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 20 January 2006 7:18:16 PM
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Just for Rainer from my own experience.

Early eighties.
Lebanese thugs walking four abreast down George st Sydney pushing people off the pavement.

Freshwater Beach,taking over the beach through violent play and foul language.

Aust Day 2004 my son and friends get attacked at Darling Harbour by 40 thugs.Racial mix,Pacific Islander,Aborigine,Lebanese and a few Anglo thugs.

Oct 2005 at a school function Lebanese thugs attack them with baseball bats ,bars and bottles.

Violence in Sydney is out of control and you Rainer are in denial.You and your lefty mates are responsible for this mess because of this continual mentality of appeasement.It is time for some tough decisions and action.Rainer,you and your lefty mates don't have the clarity of mind or the courage
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 20 January 2006 9:26:28 PM
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The problem with Sydney is that it is multi-racial. A Vietnamese lady told me recently that I was a true Australian. She is correct.

Before 1972 Sydney was a great city. Then unfortunately Gough Whitlam became Prime Minister and we now have a multicultural city. The left wing of society would never dream of maintaining the white race.

My culture has produced the majesty of Wagner. My culture has produced classical writing by Nietzsche. I doubt very much that any other "culture" could have written The Rings.

What sort of multicultural city is Tokyo? How many Muslims migrate to Japan each year. Asians are allowed to keep their race pure. Why is it that they are not called neo-nazis? Let me make it perfectly clear. Japan has a policy of race purity. Mention race purity in Australia and you are a neo-nazi.

Multicultural Sydney is a joke. The people that profit from the multicultural society are the same people that play canasta once a month and put the proceeds into a suitcase for their brotherhood. They are the people who control the pornography industry world wide. They are the people who pull the strings for George W Bush. They started the war in Iraq. They control Hollywood. The people of real culture in this city are "suckers" and the Eastern Suburbs looters love every minute of it.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Saturday, 21 January 2006 7:52:08 AM
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There is middle eastern thuggery, but also other ethnic gangs. However the difference is that other ethnic communties take responsibility and show some leadership. Even the cronulla thugs were shown in no uncertain terms that what they did was not acceptable. As long as people sense there are some adults taking action then they feel there is some control over the issue. However all the Islamic Friendship Society spokeperson does (aka Keysar trad) is suddenly deny any criminal activity is the work of a true muslim so the offenders are automatically tagged "Australian" instead. There is no denial of the fact there is a problem, only no-one wants to claim the problem as their own. Buck passing. The police when they try to take action against these "Australians" are then lablled racist for targeting suddenly reconfirmed "muslims". So they back off.

If you contrast this to say the Vietnamese community where at a meeting to try and get support form the police for law and order the only one to stand up and suggest it was racist was a white geenie or some left leaning loony. The truth is that most ethnic communities want law and order and to live in a crime free area. To suggest crime does not happen is denial. There is no doubt.
Posted by Verdant, Saturday, 21 January 2006 8:59:20 AM
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Friedrich, throw Stepan Kerkyasharian into that bouillabaisse of multicultural players. Mr Kerkyasharian has been able to create a career in the multicultural industry because of the fact he hews to the cause and he is a multicultural pet.
Posted by Sage, Saturday, 21 January 2006 9:36:09 AM
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It is not about religion in itslef - it is about the clash of Islamic culture with Australian society.

A significant number of Pacific Islanders had come down to the beach at Cronulla to "support the Australian way of life"

that means there were white Anglo-Saxon Australians side by side with black Islanders UNITED against the constant thuggery and intimidation and hatred that young men of middle eastern heritage have for this country and its people. It is CLEAR that the colour of ones skin had nothing to do with it - IT IS ABOUT A CULTURE that comes down to the beach and threatens to rape white girls if they don't 'cover up', and swarms in with car loads of 'cousins' and other SCUM if their numbers are threatened. The lifeguards were set upon for no other reason than that they were 'F@#Ken Aussies'/

LET US NOT FORGET THE PICTURES OF THE CCTV out of Cronulla - TWO HUNDRED plus middle eastern men doing what they have been doing continuously in the Sutherland Shire and South Western Sydney for 10 -15 years - and THIS IS WHY THE PEOPLE OF AUSTRALIA HAVE RISEN UP - both BLACK AND WHITE AUSTRALIANS!!
Posted by Thor, Saturday, 21 January 2006 10:58:01 AM
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The middle eastern thuggery has an underlying element of Islamic culture which teaches hatred for Australian Infidels.

I have been 'rolled' by a gang of vietnamese, and had a knife held toward me, for nothing other than money. (just common crime present in all cultures).

I have had a knife held to my throat by middle eastern thugs who didn't take my money, but just threatened to kill me because I was a "f@#Ken Aussie" - (not common crime for money, but an underlying hatred for Australians).

Everyone I know has had similar experience - crime by all colour and culture for nothing but money, but a 'SOCIAL terror' from middle easterns not for money but out of hatred for Australians -

CAN THE LEFTISTS AND LIBERALISTS SEE THE DIFERENCE??!!

All cultures have crime, but NO OTHER CULTURE directs its crime toward Australians because it hates Australians!! (who is the real racists, i suggest it is the SIalmic culture thugs!!)
Posted by Thor, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:12:11 AM
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FRIEDRICH

there u go again on the 'superiority' thing :) naughty... Please avoid such blatant racial/cultural superiority outbursts. Trust me, it does not help your cause.

Wagner is 'wonderful' to 'you' and to many others of us, but he probably totally sux to some people of different cultures. No offence.

We just have to accept that our culture is 'ours' and is 'different' from others, and as such we have every right to defend its position in Australian heritage. There is no need to go further than this to be honest.

It does not need to be "justified" by alluding to any inherrant superiority which is very much a relative concept anyway. Defending one's culture is a self evident right mate...

Personally, I prefer Handel to Wagner, the Messiah being one of the all time great examples of high musical praise seeming close to being 'inspired' by the Almighty.

Anyway.. cheers and have a nice weekend.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:20:34 AM
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BOAZ-david,

As usual your post was excellent.

Have a great weekend also.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:32:08 AM
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DEAR THOR
please refer to my post on the other thread about some self defense tips.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4040#27839

Also.. your point about Islanders and black Aussies standing together with the white ones is most important.. I urge ALL Anglos especially to REACH OUT to Aboriginals and Islanders and Catholic Lebanese and strengthen the bonds of social friendship, and produce a strong sense of unity and brotherhood.

To be honest, my reaction to the repeated kicking and bashing of poor Steve B while he was down .. initially by the infamous Number 8 character.. made me want to come up to Sydney myself and 'meet' number 8 with his wild king hit (which missed by about 2 meters) and 'counsel' him about his 'bravery in numbers' and his outright cruelty to a fellow human being. I'd also love to have 'some words' with that moron who struggled so hard to get to the front so he could use his iron bar on Steve. Perhaps in an Auburn Gym... if they had the courage to identify themselves, and I'm a 57 yr old geiser.(from Vic)

At LEAST now we know the identity of one central figure in that group and from there, we can get the rest and hopefully put them all away for a long time on Attempted murder charges

THOR if u feel strongly about this, and clearly you do, WRITE to the police and the police association, urging them to take action on this
info.centre@pansw.org.au (police association)
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/ see the 'Contact us' link.

I've written heaps of letters/mails myself.

Did everyone notice Keyser Trad (slippery Kaiser) the master of meaningless innuendo and public nothing speak... when asked about the identitys of the mob, hesitated to identify them as 'Middle Eastern'
he hummed and harred over each one.. finally conceding they 'did' seem of ME background.

Cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:39:52 AM
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I do not agree with jailing the Lebanese law breakers. They will cost an enormous sum to be kept in prison and more when they come out because they will never be considered fit enough for employment or anything else. They are not worth it.
Citizenship should be stripped from them and they should be deported right back to their home country immediately.
Keyser Trad should also be sent back where people maybe impressed with his ramblings. Most of us are tired of the constant airing of his inane comments.
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 21 January 2006 3:44:21 PM
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miki

I agree with your veiws on Keysar Trad the guy is horrid, for his real feelings on Australia, check out this link.

its so vile, please post it far and wide, lets show people what these moderates are really up to.

"our ideology is the best salvation for the people of Australia, and the people of the world in general. Yes, we are a threat to the culture of drunkenness, paedophilia, and mostly we are a big threat to the culture of ELITISM."

"In a way, they feel safe because of the quantity of water which surrounds this country, so they feel fortified behind this great body, it gives them a feeling of security. But the reality is, the land belongs to God, not to them, and if those foreigners, whom they fear as migrants are not permitted to enter as migrants, they will come as settlers, in numbers so large that they will not be able to process them, hold them, or stop them. What will they do then? If these foreigners who are restraining themselves, because they see a legal hope, that they can come to this vast mainly uninhabited land for whatever reason, are told that there is no longer a legal way to come here, what will they do?"

Sounds like the answer to Keysers Question is Jihad on Australia.

http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/RACISM.HTM
Posted by meredith, Saturday, 21 January 2006 3:48:27 PM
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Friedrich does make a good point though,why don't the likes of Rainer take on the Japanese for being racist? Not very politically correct perhaps?
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 21 January 2006 7:24:26 PM
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Arjay, I try and take on all forms of racism when it confronts me or others. I have questioned Japanese racism before. But before you hang me out to dry as being PC, try just for once explaining your own racisms to me. I'm genuinely interested.
And while I'm at it, I'm sorry your boy got bashed, if I was there he would have had backup. I'm assuming of course that he wasn't provoking anything. not being a chip of the old block and all...
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 21 January 2006 7:43:38 PM
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As life continues for the "Sun City" on the surface, so does the depletion of the ozone and the increase in the Sun's intensity.

As the environment and earth purges with natural disasters bringing despair and devastation.

Humanity hides its head in the sand, to the suggestion that
consumer idealogy is contributing to the earths demise.

Societies inability to have a conscious to nature and our environment, reflects its inability to deal with other society issues.

This leaves a future with impending amputation.
Posted by Suebdootwo, Sunday, 22 January 2006 12:40:44 AM
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Rainer your are the master of underhanded innuendo.You hide your false concern for my son's well being behind an implication that it was all his own fault anyway.Keep talking Rainer,you are just finding new depths of depravity.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 22 January 2006 6:30:43 AM
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No, this is NOT Sydney...it is MELBOURNE.... YESTERDAY !

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,17897112%255E2862,00.html

[FOUR swimming pool staff have been beaten in an attack in Melbourne's north.

Stunned witnesses said about 30 youths had punched and kicked staff, including a young woman, on the grass at Oak Park Aquatic Centre about 4pm yesterday.
One witness, Alex, said families had recoiled in horror at the bashings.

"I've never seen anything like it," Alex said.

"I thought, 'Not another Cronulla'.

"There seemed to be dozens of people involved, with most wading into the staff and people trying to help them.

"They all appeared to be Middle-Eastern youths.]

Well, there you have it..again. Seems we have a problem with cultural compatability ..again. Seem we have 'tribalism' .. again.

But of course, lets not forget.. "IT'S OUR FAULT" I mean..it has to be. We are responsible for every other malaise in the world.. why not this one too ? :) Heaven forbid that it could in any remote way be the fault of the actual perpetrators thumping and kicking into the female on the ground.. no no no...Let's not have that kind of PC heresy. Most of all.. we must NOT make any allusions to their ethnicity.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 22 January 2006 1:46:13 PM
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Speaking of work places and racism, check this out its freaky.

http://romeomikes.blogspot.com/2006/01/multiculturalism-fraud-or-line.html

Follow the “casual doorman” link, it’s a job add from Sydney opera house with strict criteria on total agreement to adhere to "Ethnic Affairs Priorities Statement”. There are explantions of these lil nasties in the article and links to investigate for yourself.

The blog post eventully ends up asking the same question many have asked on this forum, But for fancy food and interest value, this has never been answered in any concrete form.

How is our diverse society better than one that isn’t?

How is our diverse society stronger than one that isn’t?
Posted by meredith, Sunday, 22 January 2006 2:03:37 PM
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Trad and his henchmen appear to turn our nation into something resembling the basket cases they sought "asylum" from.
Does he think we will simply roll over and cede everything to them?
We do not appear to have a functioning police force, it is time to bring the army home where it is badly needed.
And whoever allowed that bunch of thugs into this country should be made to pay very dearly for it.
Posted by mickijo, Sunday, 22 January 2006 3:01:41 PM
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i'm amazed - didn't anybody pick up on the anti-semitism (anti-jew, that is) in freidrich's first post? or were you all too busy joining in the usual muzzie-bashing to notice ?

It 's a good example of something i've often found to be the case - scratch an anti-muslim culturalist. and you'll often find the familiar old european anti-semite lurking not far below the surface.

salaam or shalom - whatever. natasha'a article was fun.

tony kevin
Posted by tony kevin, Sunday, 22 January 2006 6:00:45 PM
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Well congratulations everyone, this discussion has yet again descended into the same gutter as others, lots of Muslim bashing, fear mongering and hate.

I'm sure that the University of Sydney, QUT and the QGLA and the Brisbane Institute [whose badges are seen prominently on this site] are proud to sponsor and support such intellectually stimulating discussions.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 22 January 2006 6:10:06 PM
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tony kevin,
I did not notice any anti-semetic gangs targeting Jews in Maroubra for bashing and malicious destruction of their property. The Jewish population of Maroubra and the Bra boys seem to coexist without scoring a sentence in conflict in the local paper. The criminal element resides in a single religious community who despise others right to exist. They are perpetrators of the conflict.
Posted by Philo, Sunday, 22 January 2006 8:57:40 PM
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Mr Kevin, for a person who left Cambodia under 'strained' circumstances I'd suggest you slip into retirement without causing any ripples or seeking the spotlight. Or perhaps you could continue to write potboilers about 'certain maritime incidents' drawing on your vast maritime experience.

Public servants are meant to serve the public.
Posted by Sage, Sunday, 22 January 2006 9:10:26 PM
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I was under the impression that universities encouraged a wide range of views. Further, I thought that universities were a hotbed of dissenting views and opinions, some of which challenge the usual university mantra. I might add a caveat to that by saying that the above is true, notwithstanding professor Fraser's treatment.

Has OLO appointed an arbiter or is someone so narcissistic that he or she has assumed the role?
Posted by Sage, Sunday, 22 January 2006 9:45:18 PM
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Sage,
good question about an arbiter.

yes universities are hot beds for dissenting view, its what they do.

but there are rules of engagment and professional protocols that ensure quality of dissent and opinion are of a high standard.

This discussion thus far would be right at home in a bar full of taxi drivers or at a BBQ honoring Eric Butler and the national front toadies.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 22 January 2006 9:57:09 PM
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Ode the Gutter Snipe

The "Gutter Snipe" is out and about,
All hail the "Snipe",
Who lacks courage and skill,there is no doubt,
Who knows not the difference between truth and tripe.

His intellectual prowess,searching for clout,
Justifying his own extraneous mouth.

PS.Working not far from a Taxi garage I know many who are ex- engineers,lawyers,Ship's Captains, Qantas Pilots,and bankers.Someone is tarring many with a very arrogant and bigotted brush.Intellectualism as apposed to racism?
I wonder who can that be?
Be careful what you say,as I hear very interesting stories.

"We are the Hollow Men,head piece filled with straw"
Know the poet?
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 23 January 2006 12:01:03 AM
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Dr Natasha Cica asks "are we racist?"
The fact the all this was aimed at one section of the community, does that not tell you something about that section of the community. I would say they have the problem not the Aussies. The Aussies have had enough of there behavior in our home (and there home too, but do they deserve this home?) In the days the attitude from this section was pretty obvious, spitting at camera's etc, can't we cut the political correctness crap and get to the point?
seems to me they really need to lift there game, this reaction has been along time coming from the Aussies, they have put us with there rubbish for years and personally i think they got off pretty light, then in the days after there reaction was nothing to be desired either. fact is if people who are here from other places must and should respect us and our ways... or go. simple. There attitude to wards Aussies is a joke and we are expected to just take it, well i think that time is past, we want to live nice lives here not fit with uneducated idiots that think we are a lower form of life, this is a crazy situation and we should not be asked to accept it. When one blows them selves up and kills some of us, i think we should wrap them in pig skin and stick a pig trotter in there mouth and leave them to rot in the street... the Aussies are giving back what there receiving.
Posted by dot net noobie, Monday, 23 January 2006 3:21:18 AM
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LOL Pigs deserve better hey ... but imagine the outrage....... if islamists were actully treated the way they treat Australians. Lucky for us we arn't so ugly of soul we'd bother, and to think they winge when we arrest them for bombmaking and will protest as we start to deport them.

We have a strong culture here, our convict past proudly is not one of whining and victimhood, even though our strong Ancestors were so badly abused and suffered terrible treatment, they have a prevailing strength that did not rely on playing the victem but got up and on and built our fine country.

No wonder we think islamists are pathetic.
Posted by meredith, Monday, 23 January 2006 3:36:38 AM
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Life goes on? I think it will happen again, and again, and again. I reckon those young rioters chanting 'Aussie Aussie Aussie' are a little confused - wearing backwards baseball caps and bashing people is not a part of our culture. Why blame it on race when the real enemy is stupidity?
PS this land belongs to the Aboriginal people, anyone else is simply borrowing. Be grateful.
Posted by tubley, Monday, 23 January 2006 3:55:33 AM
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why does it belog to the aboriginals, if we were not here they would be japaniess
Posted by dot net noobie, Monday, 23 January 2006 3:57:47 AM
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Rainer

The first thing I was taught at university was I was not allowed to think for myself. You could not say what you think, you had to cross reference to the opinion of someone else. Needless to say I didn't last too long.

Now I see graduates of uni being brainwashed into quoting from green left weekly and still incapable of drawing from life experience, still needing a "source". I know all the university graduates arguments by rote. They don't have many sources.

I do not see that as being intellectual at all.
Posted by Verdant, Monday, 23 January 2006 5:49:49 AM
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Tony Kevin
you need to distinguish between 'anti Jewish' statements aimed at ALL Jews (and are worthy of condemnation on racism grounds) and statements which mention factual situations of social importance that happen to involve Jewish people. The 80% control of Hollywood is a well attested figure, and the impact of this was CLEARLY revealed during the period surrounding Mel Gibsons The Passion. It was all over the Media how he was not able to get support for distribution and other things BECAUSE of the power of the Jewish level of control of Hollywood. They said as much themselves.

The mention of ethnicity/Religion is VALID when the ethnicity or religion forms a basis of extending networks of control, such as in the case of the Sassoon family of Opium war infamy in bed with the British Royalty . Their distribution network was specifically and deliberately "Jewish" and as such, is a vital fact of historical importance when considering issues of nepotism and discrimination.

On Cronulla..and the fiasco of Police mishandling of the footage we all now know about.. and the police threat to industrial action... UNLESS we are given very good sound reasons for the 'different' (the cynical (or accurate) would say 'discriminatory') operational procedures which allowed footage of Anglo attacks but NOT Leb gang attacks to be released to the public, then I suggest to all police who are involved as follows:

RESIGN and be replaced by those who are up to the task

REMOVE all females from front line gang related reaction teams.

RENEW your motivation to PROSECUTE the now IDENTIFIED perpetrators in the revenge footage

READINESS to use your service firearms to even up the odds when confronted by larger numbers of people.

REVIEW the policy where police make 'tactical' decisions in the interests of the officers.. and remember u are serving THE PUBLIC i.e. US... and instead of thinking of your welfare... think of OURs who you are employed to defend.. see the above point about evening odds.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 23 January 2006 9:09:03 AM
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Maybe the Police didn't release the tape because it wouldn't have made a difference unless those in the tape confessed and admitted that it was them. Chances are that those on the tape all had the same name anyway and the resources needed to find them would have been seen as "not worth it" as those accused could have denied it was them, they do tend to look alike, their families could have acted as alibies and the Police would have gone around in circles and they would have gotten off.

We all know that even being caught on tape doesn't seem to be enough evidence to convict. Being unable to convict the offenders even if they were on tape would have looked worse for the Government. Now it just looks bad for the Police involved and the Government, well they know nothing as per usual.

How the Government is handling this is no surprise. The are always required to rely on what they have been advised and they are required by law to believe what they have been advised. Innocent until proven guilty. They are not required to ask questions even if they are being advised by those that are said to be responsible.

We all know how Governments deal with allegations, you cant prove anything if by law there is no proper or fair investigation that is required to take place. Makes it really easy for things to be covered up.
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 23 January 2006 11:12:21 AM
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Meredith,

How is our diverse society better than one that isn’t?

How is our diverse society stronger than one that isn’t?

The answer to both of these questions is, of course, in the negative. Mantras such as “strength in diversity”, “our strength lies in our diversity”, and so on, are complete nonsense. Even if we put aside the fraudulent political policy of multiculturalism, which has so infected all Australian politicians and other self-servers, there is no logic in their claims. The exact opposite to what they are saying is true.

Australia is not yet a multicultural country in the political sense that our divide-and-rule politicians and the industry into which they pour huge swags of money wants it to be. We are still a core culture with minority multi-cultures at the edges. The newcomers are still being drawn into the host culture, and there is nothing, as yet, to prevent that if that is what they want as, I believe, most of them do or will want to do in the long run when they learn what the political classes are up to.

Most lay commentators who are proponents of the disease of political multiculturalism – as opposed to the natural multiculturalism of non-discriminatory immigration which we have had for some time – are totally unaware what it is all about - i.e. the enforced political type being touted world-wide. Different cultures will not hurt us. Governments enforcing the differences will.

It’s good to see your posts and the obvious work you have put into them.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 23 January 2006 12:29:59 PM
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As Rainer correctly acknowledged, the vast majority of this discussion has been disgraceful. Usually not surprising yes, but some of these posts have truly made me feel sick. I thought such neo-racist, intolerant and prejudicial comments belonged in a period 70 years ago in a country now incorporating the former Prussia.

What gives any of you the right to spout such ridiculous generalisations? I am a 7th generation Australian, and I do not feel like I have any more a right to exist in this country and exercise my prerogative than someone who was made a citizen yesterday. Hell, why should I? After all, they have immigrated just like my ancestors did.

Fredreich, please keep your white supremacist tripe for you neo-nazi KKK websites, and save me the disgust of having to read your ignorant, unaware posts. Perhaps a quote from the man you praise:
“The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.”
Friedrich Nietzsche, The Dawn, Sec. 297

I am sure the great man would be ashamed to have someone of your ilk citing his work.

Meredith (“if islamists were actully treated the way they treat Australians”) – newsflash – Islam is a religion, not a f*#king nationality. Someone can quite easily be both, contrary to your own ignorance.

And ‘net noobie’ (“why does it belog to the aboriginals, if we were not here they would be japaniess”) this country belongs to the Aboriginal because he OWNS it, via birth right. I probably shouldn’t have acknowledged your barely literate response with a comment, but I felt obliged.
Posted by jkenno, Monday, 23 January 2006 1:20:28 PM
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Some of the people posting on this article carry on as if the world is against them. As if what you call the ‘leb gangs’ have some deal with the police, and are out to get you. Contrary to you small minds, however, you are in the majority (much to my disgust). What, you think the police just hid that video because they want to let people of middle-eastern descent get away with crimes? Are you serious? The reasons behind the with-holding of the video were concerns about the ability of the evidence to stand up in court as identification evidence under the Evidence Act. I would have thought that would have been obvious to anyone thinking from a rational standpoint.

We live in a diverse society, like the majority of places in the world, and the sooner mainstream Australia accepts this, the better. I am not condoning the activities of middle-eastern gangs, as I never condone the activities of any criminal. What I do know is that the answer to cultural hostility surely does not rest in the minds of many of those who have posted here, unless it involves some return to the type of paternalistic policies that involved the cultural genocide of our nation’s Indigenous peoples a hundred years ago. A severely troubling thought indeed
Posted by jkenno, Monday, 23 January 2006 1:25:28 PM
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It is almost amusing watching this forum degenerate into an outlet for anyone who has had a run in with an ethnic person or justify their own stupid supremacist views. I say it is almost amusing because the beliefs of many of the people posting actually have some resonance in the Australian community, all the way to the dog-whistling of our senior politicians (and that is anything but amusing).

There is a great irony in of all these neo-conservative rants about the failure of multiculturalism. On the one hand there is a religious observance of the concept of individual responsibility, yet on the other they are quite comfortable in holding a whole community to account for the actions of a few. Shouldn’t each individual be held to account for their own actions? Isn’t that what freedom of the individual is all about? Or are there some willing to make concessions to these hard and fast rules when it involves people of a different skin colour?

Imagine if every White Australian was required to be answerable for the violence carried out at Cronulla or the stolen generation or the Crusades or the assassination of Kennedy? As ridiculous as this sounds, we somehow expect this of Middle Eastern Australians. And when they fail to condemn in the language of Alan Jones or Piers Ackerman, they are merely sympathisers, terrorists-in-the-waiting that could be sleeping under a bed near you…
Posted by giris, Monday, 23 January 2006 1:44:28 PM
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Nah tubley,

nothing confusing about Australians chanting Aussie Aussie Aussie. What is wrong with a baseball cap backwards or forwards? As for the punching, agreed it’s wrong, but luckily not a religious or big lifestyle for Aussies.

Islamists beat, rape and bomb to death, everyone whom they resent or judge to be wrong. We see it on the news daily. Ahmmmmm actually we see it daily worldwide. So who is really confused?

In the week or so of islamist ultra-violent hate crime in the eastern suburbs after Cronulla and now in Melbourne, Keysar Trad and Co whine. So we train 200 islamic lifeguards. Destroy our property and brutally beat us with our beaches as payment for your pain? Again, who is confused?

Islam is not a race it’s a religion and even as an atheist I feel deeply sorry for all other religions when this vulgar hate cult defames all religion. Cronulla was not racial, lots of races of Aussies were there to protest islamist hatred towards us.

Bowing to islamic threats and pandering to its whining. That is stupidity.

As far as this land goes, if someone pays for land they own it by law.

I’m 4th generation on my family land, my great grandfather fought in ww1, my grandfather’s shoulders were shot to smithereens in ww2. His brother died there. I’m not borrowing anything, my land is payed for and my family fought for my country. My ancestors and others of their ilk are whom we should be grateful to.

PS
The “notbacons” pretty nice. Especially with my pure organic tomatoes, grown with thanks on this land payed for in the deep tradition of cash, hard-work and bravery of my ancestors.

Have a look at what Keysar Trad thinks of Aussies as well Tubly it’s a bit of a shock but there in black and white.

http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/RACISM.HTM

Verdent,

Yes agreed, I remember in history my Armenian friend trying to raise the 1915 massacre by the Turks to no avail. Uni arts is only good to learn how to research and find facts as opposed to Marxist propaganda
Posted by meredith, Monday, 23 January 2006 2:06:14 PM
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The appearance of “jkenno” and “girls” has really given this thread a nasty tone. Perhaps if you two have a chat with Rainier, then maybe you can arrange to meet at a Black Panther gathering of sorts.

Alternatively, you could meet with a group “Leb Aussies” (make sure there is one of you and thirty of them) and if you are female, allow yourself to be gang raped, if you are male allow yourself to beaten to a pulp.

When you come back crying expect no sympathy. No media coverage. No arrests. Just expect a little snickering, some excuses about the perpetrators being from oppressed minorities in the Green left weekly. I will personally visit you and tell you to leave since this is Aboriginal property. ciao
Posted by davo, Monday, 23 January 2006 2:27:13 PM
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Living in Sydney and Central Coast my experience with these racism issues are an ongoing occurrence. So many close women friends have been kidnapped and raped by these lebanese gangs from sydney. Cronulla was not the first, just the most media publicized event. Are we in the wrong for sticking up for our rights to live peacefully. Every human will fight at one stage for rights and beliefs. Same with Cronulla. I agree that most of the riots were just pissed people running around the streets joining the madness. But the start was justified, But the media got it wrong on so many levels. Putting it down to religion. It was a group of people fed up with being treated like scum by people that are scum themselves. Nobody should have to put up with the things that cronulla and many other areas have to. We had to take it upon ourselves. Who else would, the police? They won’t do it as they think they will come across as racist. We have to get harder in Australia instead of pussy footing around every issue. It does not help us if the rest of the world thinks they can get away with anything in our country. I hated from the riots that white supremacist thought they would use this to their advantage. Trust me when I say that we actually hate you more. The riots had nothing to do with the muslim race. Just a revenge tactic that was prominently needed to retain order in the area. And Nothing to do with religion.

Psychologist characterize the crowd as a dangerous entity more irrational and violent then each individual.
People are submerged in the group losing their sense of self and gaining a sense of invincibility. This loss of the self leads to a lack of judgment, and the speedy and uncontrolled passing of ideas and emotions through the crowd. The Final phase is that of suggestion, where by deeply-rooted and unconscious prejudices form the basis of the contagious ideas being spread.

Kaos Out
Posted by Kaos, Monday, 23 January 2006 2:48:47 PM
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[Deleted for abuse. Use of characters to circumvent rules against swearing will not be tolerated. They amount the to the same thing - if I can work out what word you are alluding to, then you have used it.]
Posted by Thor, Monday, 23 January 2006 6:32:17 PM
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Davo, What evidence do you have that I belong to the Black Panthers? Unlike the childish Arjay I won't ask for your post to be removed but I would like to know how you assume this to be the case about me.

Kaos, I agree with you analysis of crowd metality and unlike others you have at least identified this as a racial issue, not a Muslim issue, although this has heaps to do with perceptions and prejudices expressed in this discussion thus far.

Thanks girls* for inserting some comon sense observations here in this discussion. Racism is argued as a justified patriotic right and virtue by many here. I feel sorry for them.
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 23 January 2006 6:47:20 PM
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Thor, I'll agree that giris seems to go to far in dismissing concerns about the behaviour of these gangs. Your attack on giris is way over the top though. It reads as though you would be happy if giris had a daughter raped by these gangs - no excuse for that.

The main point of giris's post is that the whole group should not be held to blame for the actions of a portion of that group. Fair call.

I have been disgusted at the obvious downplaying of the issue by muslim/middle eastern community spokesmen on this site and in the wider media. That does weaken the credibility of these spokesmen but does not make every individual from these groups responsible, rather it leaves the muslim and middle eastern communities with few spokesmen who deserve to be taken seriously and at face value.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 23 January 2006 6:49:57 PM
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Rainier,

You will never accept that it was(is) the behaviour of a section of Lebanese Muslim society that caused the riots at Cronulla. I don't know what you are complaining about though. Your lot got away scot free, whilst the true patriots were busted left right and centre.

Do you really think you are going to pull the wool over the younger generations eyes?

The real problem is the brave Lebanese never had the fortitude to face the whites during daylight hours.

Do you know what General Patton thought about your mob?

As for the "anti-dumper" if you don't like it go back home.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Monday, 23 January 2006 7:03:15 PM
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CRONULLA RIOT REVENGE ATTACK SUSPECT IDENTIFIED.

Daily Telegraph Sat 21Jan06
1/ Former junior rugby league coach Ahmed Jajieh, 24, was last night confirmed as a central figure in the gang attack on 35-year-old Steve B at Cronulla on December 12.

2/ The family of Mr Jajieh admitted he was among the throng of up to 30 men of Middle Eastern appearance captured on CCTV camera when Steve B was set upon outside the YHA Hostel.

But Mr Jajieh's brother, who did not want to be identified, told The Saturday Daily Telegraph: "If you see the video you can see he went in to help the guy." [BOAZ comments: It looked to me as if he was 'supervising' the action, yes, he pulled some off, AFTER he was beaten to a pulp]...

If Mr Jajieh is not forthcoming with the NAMES of his co-attackers, then he is an accessory anyway, and unwillingness to cooperate would conceivably make his position much worse.

IS HE IN CUSTODY ?

IS HE BEING INTERROGATED ?

HAS HE BEEN CHARGED ? (Affray, riot, accessory etc etc etc )

Lets recall.. the bloke with the ‘branch’ of Anglo descent is IN JAIL NOW for 4 months.
Arrested, convicted JAILED on the same day !... for carrying a ‘branch’

<<But as of last night (20th) Jan , police had yet to contact Mr Jajieh. >> (Daily Telegraph)

simple question........if not.....WHY NOT ?

Why don’t we all ask the police this question ?

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/contact_us

I just spoke to a constable at a police station in the area Mr Jajieh lives, and he mentioned that many of the senior police are about to strike !

GIRIS.. you missed it, we DON’T tar ALL Lebanese with the same brush, nor are we 'superior'.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 23 January 2006 7:24:20 PM
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No Rainer you lie again and again.It was Graham Young who removed your post because you could not substantiate your claims that I was a member of the Aust First Party.No protestations were forth coming from myself.I have still got a copy of Graham's email.Would you like a copy?
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 23 January 2006 8:08:25 PM
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lets gets honest here,

If racism really concerned anyone it would be headlines around the world how young white, aboriginal and italian women were gang raped, instead of a really poor weak riot. It would have been front page news about the sexual attack by men of middle eastern appearance against a young women walking home in the eastern suburbs in the days after the riots instead of the fairly lesser crime of riot and affray. She only managed a small paragragh on page 9.

If racism really concerned people they would wonder why a young innocent girl taught tolerance dates a lebanese guy to only find out later, sometimes years, that she was simply being used. there is no way they would ever marry white scum. Would those that preach tolerance tolerate their daughter being used in this fashion?

If racism was a concern and also muslim issues then we would be asking why lebanese muslims will not even allow a black muslim into their house. Never mind allow their daughter to date a black muslim.

If racism were an issue we would ask why they hate aborigines so much?

If racsim was an issue we would ask why we have so many christian arabs here anyway. Speak to the Coptic egyptian or the maronite from Lebanon, why are they here? Why are so few christians left in Jeresulem?

So if people are against racism, lets talk racism.

If we are such a racist horrid nation then why don't we do all these poor souls a favour and deny them entry. Sounds like A hell according to Rainer et al. :)
Posted by Verdant, Monday, 23 January 2006 8:58:57 PM
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Fred- Riech,

I have been attempting to ward off the racist generalisations directed at ‘all’ Muslims and Lebanese people/gangs here in this discussion and in other OLO discussions focused on the Cronulla riots.

If you find this offensive that is your choice. Knock yourself out by telling me off. Whatever makes your day!

I do not support violent attacks by either Lebanese or white Australians. Read the hysterical attacks in this discussion and others and you’ll find very few Lebanese posters. Not because they cannot but because they inherently know that it’s useless trying to engage in constructive dialogue with posters who celebrate their hate for them part as somehow indicative of a nationalist culture. Nazis spoke in similar ways about Jews.

Colleagues of mine ask me why I bother, and to tell the truth I sometimes wonder why I do too. I’ve heard it all before a thousand times. I do get amused when some appear to think they’ve discovered a new piece of social and political thought when in fact you can track these antiquated ideas back centuries. Its short title is racism.

As for going home, I do go home when I can and not as often as I’d like to. Home is about 2000 klms away in a remote location in Nth Australia. Despite the past160 years which began with wars over land, wanton exterminations, then removal and relocation of many of family we still managed to live close to or on our homelands.

The history of race riots did not begin on a beach in Cronulla and nor did the theoretical, racial and xenophobic justifications to ‘keep our beaches white’ used by so many here. There are deeper psycho-social and historical explanations that need to be discussed but it’s difficult to do this once the fanatical ‘feast of hate’ begins. And it looks like your speaking with a mouth full of it and loving it. How clever of you! Bonapetite!
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 23 January 2006 10:39:17 PM
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Meredith,

You are correct in saying that this country is legally ours, at least according to the laws introduced and enforced by 'white people'. And it's certainly true that our white ancestors contributed through hard work and sacrifice. I know mine did. I make no secret that I enjoy the privileges of living in one of the greatest nations on earth. But the fundamental question is what came first - the chicken or the egg?

As for the backwards baseball caps - more of a metaphorical reference to our violence-based alliance with the yanks. Culturalization at its best (note the 'zee').

I would say that punching is a part of our own culture though, at least for the blokes. I see it a few times a week at work.

Islamists beat, yes, as do lots of people. They rape, yes, just like lots of people. They bomb, like most 'war heroes' do, and all parties call it retaliation, justice or something very uncreative.

We all resent and judge. But judgment day will come, for those who believe, and in the words of Russell Crow, "You can convince yourself all you want that what you do is right and feel good about it in the morning. But if there really is a judgment day then it doesn't really f__kin matter what your opinion is".

I think we might all be a little confused. I resolve myself in the following verse:

Though the mills of God grind slowly,
yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience he stands waiting,
with exactness grinds he all.

Friedrich von Logau (1654)

I, like Keysar Trad, am ready for my grinding.

PS - I'll try out the 'not-bacons'. Last night I had vegetarian cocktail sausages with mash potato and gravy, very nice indeed.
Posted by tubley, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 3:17:56 AM
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Rainier,

I would much rather be aligned with Mr Hitler than Mr Trad.

Your trouble is that you won't admit there is a criminal mindset amongst a section of Lebanese Muslims.

You are indeed lucky that I don't run the show or the criminals would be on the first plane out. Back to throwing rocks.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 5:45:08 AM
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Thor you ask the following question:

“It was an organised "raid" of up to 300 Middle Easterns - what other immigrants in Australian society can organise such an attck on Australians...”

I think Cronulla was a clear example of how this can occur within any community. That was the point of my last post if you had bothered to read any further then your racist lenses allow you to. You can throw around your unsubstantiated figures as much as you like, but what you can’t do is use such figures to justify your hatred for the Arab community. That hatred is merely born out of your own ignorance and stupidity.

Robert, how exactly have I gone too far “in dismissing concerns about the behaviour of these gangs”? I never even mentioned the behaviour. I neither dismissed or condoned it. Will my ideas only hold credibility if I start each of my posts with some sort of disclaimer saying how much I condemn violence as though this isn’t just a given?

The fact is that the posters on this forum have not been able to provide any sort of credible evidence to back up any of their ludicrous claims. There are some that will attack Keysar Trad as though he were the only Muslim to ever exist. As if he is somehow representative of the entire Muslim Community. The fact of the matter is that Keysar is not representative, he is not elected nor does he have the majority support of the Arab and Muslim communities. The only credibility he has is that given to him by the Australian media and others like those on this forum who find it convenient to use him as the brunt of their racist slurs
Posted by giris, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:04:13 AM
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I wouldn't mind a dollar for every use of the prefix 'neo' by the lefties.

Aborigines tell us that they have no concept of ownership, yet the lefties tell us that they are the true 'owners' of Australia. Fat lot of good they were doing with it when we arrived.

While they might have been the first inhabitants of Australia, the aboriginal Australians came from somewhere else too.

We are told by these lefties what we 'owe' to the approximately 140,000 genuine ones still living, and how we inteferred with their wonderful lifestyle, but we ourselves have to tolerate our own governments trying to ruin our Australian culture by importing Third World cultures and pandering to them to bolster their muliticulturalism mania which will eventually send us back to the Stone Age barbarity that existed prior to the First Fleet.
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:10:02 AM
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Leigh,
Yes, the question of actual multicult value has recently been asked by at least 2 posters already here in OLO, I think I remember one of the lefties answering that some culture from the East bought Australia good dentists, as if Greeks and Vikings and their many children never had teeth let alone a toothbrush until multcult. They crack me up every time.

You’re right, its actually tearing Australia and any host country to islam apart.

Looking to Holland and much of Europe the poly marriage and breeding rates, of islamists is why I am unnerved. As you say “Different cultures will not hurt us. Governments enforcing the differences will.” I’m concerned islamists will be voted in by their highly faster growing population and attempt sharia/sharia-style/protective legislation i.e. Canada’s present strife. And worse yet… can you imagine OLO’s delightful budding lawyer Ifran as a Judge.

Good point! Separating enforced and natural multiculturism is vital.

PC and PC-style-multicult is more harmful than islam. It is all islam has supporting it, imagine a PC free society and islam would very “naturally” fall with in 6 to 12 months.

Thanks very much for the compliment, I dig how clearly you nail core points each post. I also enjoy the practicality of BD and Davo’s poetic one-liners.

Kenno,
Islamist… islam… ist/ism.

Islamists cannot/will not integrate into Australian culture due to their Islamism. Secular verses non-sec etc.

See above post to tubly on land ownership.

pluz stop bin “spellist” to .NetNoobie, and address his point on WW2 Japinezzz invasion and aboriginal defence capability.

what are your comments on my birthright, in the light of Australian Law on land ownership and my families contribution to your freedom?

Kaos,
Agreed, from the Aussie point of view, Western civilisation has long separated law and religion. islamists have not yet taken that step. Their hatred of us is religious beliefs/traditions, bikinis verses burka, un-modisty deserving and inviting to rape.
Here’s a link on islamic intolerance/preference in Indonesia.

http://www.infid.be/radical_survey.htm#Intolerance%20Is%20Still%20Hig
Posted by meredith, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:16:07 AM
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Rainier

In diesem Forum werden Ideen geprüft. In den Universirty Seminaren werden die Ideen, die Haß von Australien stützen, automatisch angenommen.

Keith
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 10:59:37 AM
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jkenno and giris

Look I think since you advance ideas and transferences that are very similar to those advanced by Dirk Moses in his article ‘Pogrom Talk’ I think it wise you read my posts to him and his responses to me. I think you will quickly find Dirk has departed substantially from the lines you are pushing.
Posted by keith, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 11:15:34 AM
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hey Keith.. yes, an opportune moment to thank you for your gracious response to my 'nudge' :) I hope JKENNO and GIRIS both learn from such things about 'how to interact' with people

JKENNO you have posted 9 times at last count, not exactly a 'seasoned olo warrior' and hardly the experience here to go denouncing right left and centre those who's views you take issue with. Lets list some names.

-you 'carry on'
-u think the world is against u
-you have small minds
-you disgust me (as do most Australians)
-you should accept a diverse society
-You have no answers.

JK..
Such an approach won't win friends, but it SURE will 'influence' people if u get my drift. Some re-consideration of this 'diatribe' might be in order ?

You will find that quite a lot of interaction and discussion has gone into most 'opinion's here, and many of us know other posters positions quite well.

Just a couple of points on the witholding of the video footage.

1/ Daily telegraph released it, and within 24 hrs had identified a central perpetrator
2/ His family admitted he was present.
3/ Highly unlikely that he does 'not' know the names of many others in the group.
4/ The 'evidence' act was not a problem for jailing the "Jack the Anglo Penrith Branch ripper"

I don't think the evidence act is a problem here. Cooperation might be. Then, the threat of 15 yrs behind bars for riot might lubricate the cooperation cells to a point where some names can be offered.

The police are caught between under-resourcing and political correctness. Have you read Tim Priests expose' ?
http://www.australian-news.com.au/The%20rise%20of%20Middle%20Eastern%20crime%20in%20Australia.pdf

Try not to just 'judge' other posters by their/our emotional posts at the crest of a current wave of social comment. But even more important, perhaps setting ones-self up as a large minded, non carrying on,non disgusting, open minded person who has all the answers is not conducive to healthy interaction either.

But ur welcome to describe me as a 'Bible Basher' :) anytime. I don't mind
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 12:15:10 PM
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BD, you say “we DON’T tar ALL Lebanese with the same brush, nor are we 'superior'”, whilst with your Nazi propagandist buddy Friedrich and saying I need to accept a diverse society! Can we spell contradiction? Perhaps you shouldn’t be judging me?

Thor, I don’t know where to begin & I am reluctant to acknowledge someone who wishes rape on another’s daughter. But let me be clear - because I believe that people should be judged individually on the basis of their merits and not their skin colour or religion, I am a traitor to Australia?

Fredreich: “the brave Lebanese never had the fortitude to face the whites during daylight hours!” – I guess the people at Cronulla in their 100’s bashing those looking remotely ‘wog-ish’ is TOUGH? I thought no Australian condoned gang/mob violence, but it appears as though some are happy with groups of people bashing defenceless victims. This clearly happened on BOTH sides, contrary to your and Thor’s ignorance.

Meredith. I have nothing but respect for both your and my forefathers who fought against the Nazi’s in WW2. I do find it ironic however that you are now siding with some open white supremacists. That aside, relative to Aboriginal ownership, if I came to your land & stole it, separated your children to teach them to be more like me, put you into slave labour & sold the land after 50 years, I would think that you would still feel you had some right to the land no? And to Leigh re Aboriginals not having any concept of ownweship, tell that to the people battling against multi-national mining corporations (and a system designed against them) to stop the mining of their burial grounds in a court of foreign jurisdiction.

Keith – Dirk hasn't departed from any line I can identify. But I do agree with you: “I’m an immigrant. Where from? No-one gives a rats - I’m Australian!” Only when all feel this way can the issues be approached. And ostracising entire communities for the acts of few is certainly not the way to go about it.
Posted by jkenno, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 1:47:19 PM
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jkenno wrote, “I’m an immigrant. Where from? No-one gives a rats"

Thats correct, No-one gives a rats where you come from, you are welcome here, all are welcome here. But what we want it to try and maintain this as a nice and happy place to live.

Racism does suck, but it seems to be a fact of life and or an evolutionary tool for survival of your kind, who ever you are.

As humans we also have the ability to override this fear/emotion, but this is Dependant on what you learn from your schooling, your parents and or religion if you have one?

(I am not religious and think the hard core religious nuts actually need metal help, but thats a another issue, and physics has now really made the need for god obsolete, we don't need god to explain how the universe cam into existence. This is why the pope asked Steven Hawkins to stop going back further and further in time. Because once you go past the creation of the universe our concept of god, as we know it, is obsolete.)

What matters is how people treat each other, you need to respect others whether you agree with them or not. They have as much right to breath the air, think and live as you do.

And i say if people can't live like this, we don't want them as a part of our community. I want a community with strong economy, which gives all Arabs, Aboriginals, Africa's, Mexicans, Asian who ever, the opportunity to make a decent living, a safe place to raise there children and a place where people don't have too live in fear of others.

This is what I want.
Posted by dot net noobie, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 2:47:05 PM
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giris

as I posted above, no other group has held a knife to my throat and threatened to kill me because I am a "f@#Ken Aussie"...

'white' Australians side by side with 'black' pacific Island Australians - it is clearly not about the colour of ones skin - it is therefore about culture, not race...

AND

my question asked what other group can organise such raids against Australians... GIVEN THAT the Middle Easterns stopped and asked a man if he was Australian before he was assaulted, says that the Middle Easterns themselves DO NOT SAY THEY ARE AUSTRALIAN - this is the premise implicit in the question...

If the Middle Eastern say they are NOT Australian, then why is it that YOU say they are Australian...?
Posted by Thor, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 4:43:14 PM
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Keith, I got a dictionary out to translate what you wrote in German. Have you been to university? If so, you would not write what you did. Given your ignorance, perhaps you should try enrolling in a BA -- if you could get in, that is.
Friedrich: your initial post was a shocker. Why don't you come out and write what you REALLY think of the Jews and Arabs?
Dump Hux!
Posted by Dump Hux, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 6:06:48 PM
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From the beginning this all about the high crime wave in south western Sydney. Or if not in south west Sydney by people who reside there. It was all about the criminals. Only the criminals.

However too many people were so fearful and scared of "what other countries will think" to even complain about criminals, and criminals only, was considered racist. The Cronulla situation has been building for years and a direct plea for police action was called for about 6 years ago.

So a direct plea to police was ignored. Press reports on issues relating to the sexual attacks RACIST RACIST RACIST by left leaning and by muslims themselves. Other incidents ignored by press and police alike. Any mention fo the facts and you were fronted by a hysterical, non-muslim usually, political types like you were the criminal instead of one complaining about crime.

Muslims jumped on board and any mention in the negative and racist, racist racist. Really minor issues were reported to the discrimination baord though they still manage the numbers jews lodge. (who is screaming for their rights btw?)

And so it became all about muslims. Because if people don't feel they have a right to have a small percentage of criminals within a group dealt with effectivley then the whole group will be rejected. Especially seeing a percentage have the potential to be the most lethal of all criminals. If you cannot deal with non terrorist crime how we will ever be able to deal with the tough stuff?

So whoever supported the rights of a minority of ciminals between 5 and 10 years ago have themselves to blame. If we had been able to deal with criminals as harshly as they deserved without all the loooney left support they received then it may well have always just been about the criminals.
Posted by Verdant, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 6:16:54 PM
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You're right Verdant ,it is about crime.Crime has festered because of a weak Labor Party dominated human rights organisations have perverted both our Police Service and Judiciary.The police are too scared to catch them and the Judiciary won't gaol them.

If the Police suspect someone of carrying a knife or gun ,they have to ask the criminal to hand it to them.Recently they held stop work meetings to to counter this stupidity.I haven't heard the outcome.They cannot physically overpower them and take weapons from people they suspect harbouring them.Many Lebanese and other ethnic criminals when arrested simply appeal to the anti-discrimination board and press charges against the police.The crims simply say they will drop their charges if the Police drop theirs.Even if it does get to court we have Labor appointed left wing Judges who simply put them on good behaviour bonds.
So the police feel demoralised and just play the public service game of watching their own backs,while appearing to do something.Who can blame them.

The civil libertarians like Rainer have over the last 25yrs destroyed destroyed our social fabric which has resulted in the Ethnic gangs that rampage our city.They have fostered the very thing that they find most abhorent,racism.They have tried to cover up ethnic crime through PC and shouting down any detractors as racists.

The left have propergated more racism than any Nazi could ever achieved,since the lunatic right are now eminating from the woodwork due to the supression of free speach.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 7:58:09 PM
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Arjay wrote:
"civil libertarians like Rainier"

thanks mate, that’s a wonderful compliment, I reckon me and my comrades would have rallied, protested, petitioned, lobbied, [and lost more than we won] for the rights and interests of people just like you, and importantly people not like you too. It’s what us so called elite, mostly working class, mortgage paying, mum and dads do cos we believe in trying to create a better tomorrow for our kids. We want our kids to understand hate and prejudices and transcend the ideas that incite them. We admire people like Martin Luther King, read a wide range of social theory (from both Left and Right perspectives). And lots of us enjoy music and poetry and other creative articulations. The Lefties are a broad church but we mostly agree on issues that require us to respect and protect the basic rights of our fellow human beings. But we also know when we are being challenged by one-eyed Right wing zealots. We don’t think we are ideologically perfect at all, but as the old saying goes, but we do know that if you don’t believe in something - you’ll fall for anything.

Keeping falling Arjay, you'll hit the bottom soon.

Cheers!
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 8:34:43 PM
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Dear JKENNO
I’d rather be working with you than against you, but ur not giving much room here.
You seem to think I’m “judging” you when all I did was point out a list of derogatory personal attacks you made against a) Most Australians (disgust) and b) Friedrich in particular. (Nazi)

I also take issue with some things Friedrich has said, and if you look back over his and my posts, you will see that its possible to resolve such differences without ‘playing the man’ as you have done here. That is not ‘judgement’ in the sense of opinion, its plain fact for all to see.

You made a couple of points in your last post which could do with some deeper scrutiny.

“I’m an immigrant, who cares where I came from I’m Australian” is one.
and
“I believe people should be judged on their merits not by their skin color or religion”

I have reservations on both of those positions as follows:

“Where I came from” in itself may not matter. But:

“the CULTURE” I bring may matter a lot! Depending on whether it is compatible with the prevailing culture. “British” culture certainly impacted on Aboriginal culture as you have repeatedly observed, and very negatively.

We now have a predominant English/Irish/Celtic/Scottish/Northern European culture. (in that order too) with around 25% of people from other cultural backgrounds. Some of those cultures are NOT compatible with ours. (female genital mutilation for one example)

“Skin color” agreed it does not bother me in the slightest.

“Religion” This is a different kettle of fish. (Politics is the same) if the religion has as a fundamental tenet to create a 'caliphate' for example, or intoduce the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, (neither of which accept a different system than theirs) Then, I have a problem with that culture.

A predominant culture will accept the newcomer, but not his culture in areas of serious conflict and/or competitive difference.

If you can show me errors of reasoning here, and/or if you have workable and constructive alternatives feel free to share them. (no cliche’s though)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 8:56:04 PM
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Rainer

You seem to be a supremist of some sorts. You are not preaching tolerance on here so I doubt very much you are teaching it to your children. Your I am "working class" remark loses all credibility with your truck driver "down the nose" remarks.

Being left wing does not mean you are superiour, just different ideology yet you seem to think from your last post it makes you better. It doesn't. Like Hilter was so far left he ended up far right. The extremes have a way of merging into one.

As with our so called far left, loopy, loony or whatever they may be called. They do not stand for human rights, just the rights of those that will get them political credit.

For example I have just read from 1997 a left wing journal saying the high rate of crime within the Lebanese community was because the police were racist. Totally no concern for the victims of the crimes. Just out to support the criminals. So many years of denial and in the meantime so many victims.

So as a result we have had a steady increase of human rights violations against women. If it was a true left mentality as I grew up, with the female victim would have won support from the left, now they are the scarifical lamb for those who support extreme relgion ideology. Another extreme right trait? As usual when there is human conflict women find themselves at the bottom of the food chain.

So not you are not supporting human rights, you are supporting the denial of human rights. I read a great comment from a newspaper article, cannot credit the source sorry, Tolerance ends when liberty ends. Think about it. you and your ilk are inciting racism because human rights are important to everyone, not just criminals.
Posted by Verdant, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:13:00 PM
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Well, the bottom line is this...

These radical groups can push and push all they want, but sooner or later the majority will become sick of putting up with the rubbish and remove them from the equation... thus problem solved

I find watching the extremists on TV saying they will win the fight, there is no way they can lose cause "ala" (what ever it is?) is on our side (note to mussies, ala is a load of crap, he's not gonna do crap for you mate).

Well NEWS FLASH, they keep it up, the west will remove them from the face of the planet, we have the Bombs, Plains and ships etc. we/the west have the hardware to do the job, we can remove/wipe/destroy one of the Extremist nations from almost anywhere on earth at almost anytime the west desires, pretty much at our own leisure, this is fact.

this is a little more effective than blowing up 25 people down at the local mall.

Another example of this is the Jews and the Palestinians, the Jews could remove them tomorrow if they felt like it, they have the hardware, they can do it when and if they feel like it.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee i think for some people...
Posted by dot net noobie, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:19:27 PM
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Arjay,

I couldn't have said it any better myself!
Posted by minuet, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:33:13 PM
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Verdant you are right. The thing is that if the system had of dealt with these criminals earlier when they were budding bullies, there wouldn't be so much crime! Prevention is something that the system seems to not know how to administer.

Morris Iemma said that the system was now going to formerly outlaw bad behaviour and bullying. Question would have to be asked: "Why didn't anybody tell us that it wasn't outlawed before?" If the people had of known that the Police and system were not required by Law to do anything about bad behaviour and bullying then the People wouldn't have let it get to the point that it is at today where the people have had to resort to violence in order to be heard and to protect themselves.

The Police and system have not been dealing with thugs and criminals and bullies are ruling........Some of them are Lebanese, some are Australian, most are mixed.

Its a process and culture that needs to be changed.
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 10:07:33 PM
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I agree with Meredith that Islam as it is now and for the next 20 years will not be modernizing and adapting to more western values in any hurry. In fact, the opposite is true. Fundamentalist Islam is growing. Moderate muslims who want reform are struggling against the force of fundamentalism. It's crazy to see young muslims (especially women) demanding more restrictions and gender inequality than less. I personally find it extremely threatening and incomprehensible. Lets face it, women are not seen to be equal and anything less than a headscarf means the girl is basically a slut. Boys hang out in gangs of cousins everywhere in the middle east because that is the culture of Islam. I think our education system needs to attend to gender issues and women's rights issues more urgently than aussie patriotism as the numbers of muslim students rise in our schools. We need to do that not just for all Australians and Australian women, but for moderate muslims who genuinely want Islam to move forward.
Posted by minuet, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 10:19:16 PM
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Look people, a forum is a Forum and we need to address the topic issue.

Everyone is going off track. (Well Not Everyone) but the issue is the Cronulla incident. (We are speaking of the Cause) and It DIDN’T have anything to do with religion. It DIDN’T have anything to do with the Muslim race and It DIDN’T have anything to do with Jews / Nazis / White Supremacist and any other crap racism issues that have been brought up here. The fact of the matter is that the Bra Boys, and other beach loving locals to Cronulla had put up with fights, antagonistic directions and the fact that the streets were not safe to walk at night for many years now. I have seen, running with different clicks first hand actions against the white Australian (No white supremacist crap intended). We did’nt pick the fights, they did. This issue cannot be solved with big words and disillusioned opinions from people that have never lived first hand in the thick of it. When it all comes down to it, these riots were STARTED with men hating OPPRESSION in their own local area. It is happening all on the east Australian coast. I have literally been in the heat of battle against Lebanese men from all over Sydney, based on issues started by them. We have only targeted them by what they have done to us. We have never teamed up together to take them on without a good reason. Many reasons of course being of female rape. The riot that happened initially was not an attempt to crush a religion or race but individual people that have intentially tried to make our lives hell. We were not singling out race but face. If it was the Asians were on those beaches doing this we would be having a totally different discussion so that authenticates that it was not directed at race. Just remember that I do believe that it did get out of hand and the latter part of the riot had initially nothing to do with the beginning.
Posted by Kaos, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 11:09:13 PM
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Keith,
Your German comment to rainer rang way truer than Dirks German note to rainer!

Yes minuet,
I thought feminism had finished its job well enough ages ago but yes, its truly needing to go back beyond even where the Suffragettes from. There used to be a very informative site called stopstoning.com from the Organization for Women's Liberation – Iran… but it seems to be down now except for this related article.
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:fTw8Ux2YwVQJ:www.azadizan.com/english/pdf/biweekly19.pdf+%22stopstoning.com%22&hl=en

Also Europe being 20 or so years ahead of us with islamic colonisation and PC-style-multicult this link
http://www.secularislam.org/women/bulletin31.htm is important as it includes a report of a woman stoned to death in Marseilles France! We can’t let it get to that stage here.

Ali Hirsali now lives under 24-hour protection due to serious death threats from islamists. Heres an interview with her, broadcast just today, she’s also done a lot on islamic women’s issues.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4640606.stm
it’s very worth downloading the podcast of the whole interview.
Posted by meredith, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 2:44:49 AM
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BD, I never seek to engage in personal attack, but when I am attacked, I feel the need to respond (I have been called a traitor to Australia and had rape wished on my family in this thread – although I think this post has now been removed). I also understand your want to discuss issues rather than simply respond to others posts, which is basically what I understand a site like OLO to be predominantly about.

Freidrich is openly a white supremacist. This is plainly obvious from his posts and his failure to deny it. Therefore I think it is hardly “derogatory” to label someone what they label themselves.

My post regarding judging people focused on assessing people on an individual basis, as they come. Just because someone is a Muslim, does not mean I automatically think they are a radical one, just like just because you are Christian, doesn’t mean I think you are a radical one. Of course someone’s culture matters to their person, but I am simply saying I am not going to judge someone if all I know is they belong to a particular culture. I instead believe in the sanctity of the individual and their ability to transcend stereotypes.

I just think if you are going to side with others in an argument, you need to distinguish yourself from areas you do not agree with.

Net-noobie, I disagree. You can’t bomb extremists off the face of the planet. I think the Iraqi and Palestinian conflicts, as well as basically any other conflict in history, is indicative of this. The more you bomb a people and persecute them, the more kids you will have whose mum, dad, sister or brother dies in their arms, and who will grow up wanting to take revenge for this.

That said, BD, obviously I don’t think that conflict can solve any problem adequately, just like the Cronulla riot failed to achieve anything, and the subsequent revenge attacks. The only way to achieve solution is to work together at a grass-roots level, be prepared to compromise, and move forward.
Posted by jkenno, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 8:22:57 AM
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Verdant, Where in my posts have I supported criminal activity?
Please don't confuse your own dopey blindness and construction of the word Lebanese or ethnic or multicultural as meaning 'all criminal activity'. Your racist pathologising of all ethnic people as criminals is of your own making, not mine. I've consistently questioned peoples racist constructions and projections, stereotypes about all Muslims and Lebanese people. This is not supporting criminal activity, but perhaps in your little world it is?

As for class, I am working class and proud of it. And you should go and listen to a lecture at your local uni sometime, I'm sure they'd welcome someone with your worldly knowledge in the discipline of laundry mat/public bar sociology/anthropology. Perhaps you could take pictures of all the 'nasty 'coloured 'people' you don't like along - and do a show and tell?

Boaz David, I thought you had training in anthropology? Did verdant tutor you?

Surely you would know the difference between trying to accord culture as belonging exclusively to a group of people is very different from attempting to classify all claims of association to a cultural or ethnic group? Many people do not relate to a single cultural or ethnic group and will often give a multiple response to a question on ancestry, ethnicity or cultural identity. I wonder if this has something to do with why you couldn’t answer that ‘question’. Perhaps you just did but didn’t know you did.
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 8:30:12 AM
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jkenno. I actually think that the Cronulla riots did achieve something. At least now the Government has had to accept and acknowledge some of the issues and look like they are doing something, even though true to form they are only just pretending and presenting a picture whilst waiting for time to pass and the next drama to come along to take the attention and focus off the issue.

I was once pretty much told by a Minister that he was just a spokesperson for the Government and had no power to do anything. So I would have to ask "What or who is the Government, who has the power, and what is the point of having Ministers if they have no power and they are doing such a bad job?". Who needs puppets?

I will answer my own question. THe people have the power and that is why Cronulla happened and that is why terrorism happens. When there are no avenues to have grievances and issues properly and fairly acknowledged, addressed and dealt with, people feel that they have no other choice other than to resort to violence or go mad.

Cronulla needed to happen to show the Government that they either do the right thing by the people or the people will take matters into their own hands.
Posted by Jolanda, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 8:49:10 AM
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jkenno

Dirk hasn’t departed from any line?

His position became indefensible. He cut and ran. That’s a departure.

Dump Hux.

Here’s what Dirk said to Rainier about this forum in the ‘Pogrom Talk’ thread

‘ich stimme mit Ihnen überein aber den Abstraktionsgrad Ihrer Interventionen ist zu hoch für dieses Forum. Wir sitzen ja nicht im Uni-Seminar.

Translated:
I agree with you however the degree of abstraction of your interventions are too high for this forum. We do not sit in the university seminar.

Look at Rainier’s interventions in that thread.

Rainer in this thread said:

‘yes universities are hot beds for dissenting view, its what they do but there are rules of engagment (sic) and professional protocols that ensure quality of dissent and opinion are of a high standard.’

‘Thanks girls* for inserting some common sense(sic)observations here in this discussion. Racism is argued as a justified patriotic right and virtue by many here. I feel sorry for them.’

Kaos, I agree with you(sic analysis of crowd metality(sic) and unlike others you have at least identified this as a racial issue, not a Muslim issue’

His views on racist Australia are ‘entrenched positions, staked out and clung to with dogmatic tenacity.’ and ‘Little critical self-reflection …’ are contained in those views. I scoffed at his arrogance by saying

’In diesem Forum werden Ideen geprüft. In den Universirty Seminaren werden die Ideen, die Haß von Australien stützen, automatisch angenommen.’
Translated: `In this forum ideas are examined. In the University seminars the ideas, which support hate of Australia, are accepted automatically.'

I attended Uni studying English Literature, Psychology and Journalism. I dropped out over a dispute about the inclusion of a piece of pornography in a literature course. I had attained very high grades in Literature and Psychology but C’s in Journalism. I was ending my second year.
That was to my great benefit given the obvious lack of comprehension skills shown by so many, including you, who seem to revere the inability of our University’s of today to produce many graduates with a great degree of ‘critical self-reflection’. That result’s from…..?
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 11:11:27 AM
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JKENNO...
I see your point about not condemning someone on the basis of their culture or religion on the grounds that while the religion or culture itself might be 'radical' at its core, the adherants themselves may not be. Fair point.

Let me bounce something else off you.

Part A) The German Immigration dept has just brought out a 'citizenship questionaire' where 'would be citizens' are asked their views on a number of important social issues, including
-Domestic Violence
-Suicide Bombings
-Womens rights etc

The Islamic community is 'up in arms' saying it is directed at them alone. The more important question is "Why are they worried" ?

Part B) Social Theory. -most people would accept that in any given community, there will be a 'radical' end of the values spectrum where some will be extremely passionate about 'their' ways.

Based on Part B) above, I feel it is justified to deliberately limit the numbers of particular religions (which have a conflicting view of how society should run politically), from an immigration standpoint, and preventing numbers reaching a point of threat. The bigger the community, the larger the numbers of the radical fringe.

-Ankor Wat as an example where the Thais migrated, grew in number and finally sacked the city and drove out the Kmers.

-Ivory Coast where migrants from neighbouring tribes/countries became strong, and gained control of the diamond areas, and attempted to grab the presidency.

-The radical PLO .. with a mother of TEN children who blessed one of her sons to be a suicide bomber, standing for election in HAMAS now.

-Lebanese Muslim association branch stacking the seat of Fowler NSW to get a 'pro PLO' candidate up to influence foreign policy of Australia.

Key words "managable numbers" under the framework of the Anglo/Celt cultural umbrella. Accept lots of migrants, yes, but not from one source or culture.
Romantic Idealism about human behavior won't cut it I'm afraid.

RANIER 'you' are complaining about 'white power structures' etc.. so in all fairness, it is up to YOU to say what they are ! please don't play games.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 1:14:34 PM
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Dear old Rainer is feeling a little bit beseiged.Losing yet another debate.

Rainer feels no compunction to address the truth when things seem to be running against his perverted logic.When the argument runs against his tide of prejudice, we have comments like,"But there are rules of engagement and professional protocols that ensure the quality of dissent and opinion are of a high standard."Rainer takes the high moral ground when it suits him. If Rainer is the perceived victor then it is also alright to lower standards and get into the gutter[ A word of his own choice].He uses all manner of innuendo and distortions of the truth to manifest a lie.Rainer I don't consider myself to be all that intelligent,yet time and time again Rainer you lose against my honesty and many on this forum find you wanting in both intergety,logic and sincerity.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 7:04:29 PM
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Arjay, I'm glad you found enough words in the dictionary to express how wonderful you think you are. Congratulations!

Keith, I'm glad you found something funny in my posts. That you did sez something. You really should seriously reconsider uni again. Its not as fickle as some make it out to be.
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 8:41:20 PM
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Rainer

You say you do not support criminal activity, however as I stated, the loopy left as far back as the mid to late nineties?, were saying the only reason that Lebanese were over represented in prisons was because of police racism. There was never any basis in fact.

The big spark was the Lee murder, a chinese Aussie CHILD killed on account of his race and because he was on Telopea Street. The police investigation was met with a wall of silence from an area where they knew there would be plenty of witnesses. This silence was sanctioned by the green left at every chance and police distrust entrenched (with no real basis in fact) for the decade to come.

What followed was the police station shot at, arresting police being accused of racism, even one case I know of where the offender didn't even raise it as being an issue, a lefty did?

So we move on to the home invasions, sexual harrassment on railway stations, whole train carriages off limits to any using the train by smoking, rampaging gangs, gang rapes, drugs and guns, murders etc etc.

Gang rapes, racially motivated were explained away by the left as a crime any man committs. Now do we say the white supremists that murders a black person is just a murder the same as what happens everyday. No!

Fast forward to today and yet again we hear that in response to the reprisal attacks, video footage released for the community to identify criminals has been met AGAIN with a wall of silence.

If a group will protect their criminals then the whole group gets rejected.

What are you defending exactly? And who? And why? Do you think this protection of criminals should continue? Do you think we should all move away like so many already have been forced to.

I think you should learn about paternalistic racism, very damaging, the aborigines a good example of the damage it can accuse.
Posted by Verdant, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 9:04:50 PM
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Rainier

I think we'd both have a solid sense of fun. For the criticism we both receive, and our insistence on returning here, we'd have to have some balance somewhere.

Way to old and well read to return now. I do appreciate your sentiment. Thanks. The only time not having a degree seems to affect me is when some pinhead graduates try to show their superiority by putting me down. That is annoying. But then I chance across people like yourself and even though we think quite differently...there is a genuine attempt at respect. That really makes my day.

Regards
Posted by keith, Thursday, 26 January 2006 4:31:48 AM
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Dump Hux,

My initial post was written from personal experience. You won't find out the truth by reading the New York Post.

What do I really think about arabs and jews? I like arabs and jews as much as I like asians.

Dump Hux, the problem with this country and other similar countries around the world is that lefties have sold them out, and people like you love it.

My initial post was a "shocker." The truth is the truth is the truth. A doctor tells someone they have cancer and their immediate response is "you're wrong." Today we have multicultural cancer.

I tell the truth and I'm "hateful", I'm a "neo-nazi", I align myself with the "Third Reich".

Do you know what the word patriot means dump hux? You won't find out reading Karl Marx( who came from a long line of Rabbis).
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Thursday, 26 January 2006 7:43:13 AM
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Dear Ranier

Please make an effort to respond meaningfully to the issue of 'White Power Structures' which you have complained about.

Having said that, I heard something yesterday which was very memorable in terms of Indigenous self image and attitude, expressed by a Torres Straight Islander

"You want us to DANCE as 'warriors' but you don't want us to ACT like them"

That pretty much sums up the fundamental problem of many Aboriginal males in regard to alchohol, domestic violence and employment. In anthropological terms, it is the same thing spread over a longer time scale as faced by the Yir Yuront of Cape York. It is in fact the same thing being experience NOW by WHITE males as a result of some feminazi driven cultural changes over recent decades.

He or she who messes with a mans ability to be a 'warrior', who just wants him to 'dance' but not 'be' is one who wants to destroy society.
To be a Warrior does not mean you have to go out and make war, its meaning is much deeper than that. A man can be a warrior in sport, around the home, in business, but take that from him... and you take his life.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 26 January 2006 7:43:51 AM
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Thanks Meredith. The stoning of a French woman is shocking and doesn't that just ring alarm bells for us! Sorry I'm off the topic here, but the Cronulla riots were partly sparked by abuse and harassment against women coming from a culture that has some catching up to do in regards to women's equality. Our government needs to address these issues as much as better law enforcement. No use in singing the national anthem in school everyday unless we are also singing anthems about womens rights, equality and respect. That includes on the beach, in the shopping mall, on the street, wherever.
Posted by minuet, Thursday, 26 January 2006 10:58:42 AM
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Rainier,

Have you ever considered the possibilty that you are always wrong? I believe you have set new standards in mediocrity.

Someone's son is assaulted and you think that is great.

It really is time to pack the bags and return to congoid land.

Do not pass go.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Thursday, 26 January 2006 11:19:03 AM
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Minuet,
Yes rape is revolting enough, but stoning in a Western Country, (not to detract from stoning and burnings in the East) shows a terrifying loss of Western standards.
Incase you haven’t seen the woman’s rights film Theo (Vincent’s grandson and Dutch national Icon) Van Gogh was brutally slaughtered by islamists for and Ayaan Hirsi’s comments on their reasons for make it.

Here it is:
Submission film
http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/log/2292608
Even after Thos brutal slaughter this film was banned from a lot of Euro Art festivals incase it offended islamists.

Ayaan’s opinion
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/2005_50_fri_02.shtml

Kaos,
I’m interested to hear more of your thoughts, and thanks for putting us straight, basically you wanted your beach back right? I lived in Sydney for years and was always at the eastern beach’s as I’m right into snorkelling. I want them back to!

What really freaked me the most was seeing the man from The Bra Boys in the supposed peace pact with the leb bikie gang the Comancheros, I didn’t believe it for one minute. I believe he was threatened into passivity.

Also The Bra Boys Man being in talks with Keysar Trad, please read this to see who he’s dealing with,
http://www.islam.org.au/articles/16/RACISM.HTM

Also the training of 200 lebs as lifeguards after their retaliation rampage, I think it’s very wrong.

As Jolanda said it’s raised the multicult oppression issue for all True Blue Aussies.

Tubley,
USA baseball caps, neither Ozzy Army or US Army wear baseball caps, yet Leyton (No.1 seed and Aussie champ) Hewit does, are u sure its not just u exercising your prejudice to something you dislike, as I do to islam?

I have some very good American friends and feel a kinship to them after their help in the pacific with the Japs and I don’t like your opinion there, I hate the standard response of the left that the USA is naturally evil cuz its done okay for itself. Do you have a better “New Rome” in mind?
Posted by meredith, Thursday, 26 January 2006 11:36:35 AM
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Fredreich,

I'll make a deal with you, when you grow a brain I'll take whatever you say seriously.

What say you?

Davo, good point, but look back fitty years and the trends don't comply with your hypothesis. Let’s agree that the use of historical precedent can’t be selectively used whenever huh?

Keith Thanks, but I think you'll find compliments go no where with our master of verbosity Col - a poke with a sharp stick keeps him awake. He set his rules of war long ago. I'm just complying.
Posted by Rainier, Thursday, 26 January 2006 2:03:13 PM
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Then it's time to change the rules and let's all heed Dirk's advice.

You know Davo asked you a reasonable question. It is one that is easily answered with, what you would find, a little effort. Many others wouldn't be capable of that. It would also raise the level of discussion.

It's me who is verbose. :-) I have too much to say, too often.
Posted by keith, Thursday, 26 January 2006 4:06:57 PM
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Ranier,

Over the past few days I've noticed a few comments on blogs saying they've abandoned OLO because it's been swamped by hard right neo-Nazi types. I wondered how many people are like me - read the article, anticipate the hatred and vitriol, scan a few comments from the usual crowd foaming at the mouth then find something more constructive to do. It's just too depressing to think about how cruel some Australians have become, or perhaps have always been. Whatever.

Then about a million comments ago you said your friends ask why you keep bothering and it made me feel bad for not supporting my own beliefs and leaving fellow humanitarians stranded in the toxic gunge here. Oddly, I also felt bad about the perception that OLO is being swamped by Pol Pot wannabees, which I don't believe. It's quite likely that it just looks that way because the white worriers are the first to respond to anything they disagree with, whether they read it or not. Then people like me switch off in disgust and leave people like you to fight it out on our behalf.

I'm not sure I'm as thick skinned as you so I can't promise to help even up the numbers, but thought you'd be pleased to know you're admired for your guts.

Just one observation on Friedrich (sorry if the spelling's wrong)I suspect he's less of a racist as such and more of a conspiracy theorist generally. If you look at the variety of referents he draws together to explain why we're all going to hell in a handbasket it's not simple racism. Very interesting character.
Posted by chainsmoker, Thursday, 26 January 2006 7:07:11 PM
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Regarding employment for 200 Lebanese men at beaches I will say that to be of blind justice and an example of the cowardly problem solving of government officials. Why is America such a world power? Well it’s not from being nice. It’s for fighting for what They believe in and not bowing before fellow nations and puckering up for a good ass kiss like John Howard and his lips that are permanently stapled to bushes ass [But that’s another story]). We should not reward the guilty. I know they were revenge attacks, But we did NOT smash hundreds of cars and bash people after asking their heritage. That to me says they aren’t proud or happy to be an Australian. In one breath it was “We are Australian and want to be treated no differently”, and in the next they are smashing our people and property. Truth Must Hurt, sad.

Morris Iemma, HA You dream of hard justice prevailing AFTER wars have begun and paddy wagons roll in is just that, dreams. There is no victory in those actions. Just issue’s that are pushed aside until the media have their next Expose Scoop and everyone’s attention shifts away. Rules have to be hardened regarding immigration. My biggest hate is the un-patrolled Australian Ocean Borders. I do not know exact stats but I know we patrol much less then we should. It’s is our security after all.

(The Commenchero’s aren’t a Lebanese M.C but do have Lebanese Members
Posted by Kaos, Thursday, 26 January 2006 7:51:28 PM
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Thanks heaps for your post chainsmoker, it’s reinvigorated me to keep going. That this site is sponsored by reputable education and public comment institutes is a puzzle to me. Many of the posters here are openly inciting racism.

You would think it was in the interest of these institutions public reputation to take some interest in the quality of discussion taking place here. Providing proof that Right wing lunatics and political parties infest this site would be difficult- the evidence is plain to see.

If this forum is to prove to be a useful educational tool then it certainly needs some quality control mechanisms in place ASAP.

Until it does have some quality control it won’t attract people who are actively engaged at a grassroots level, professional vocation or other to bring new knowledge and perspectives.

Perhaps it’s used by Howard’s spin doctors to develop more dog whistles? What ever its use, it’s certainly appears quite acceptable for posters to proclaim racist opinions / unfounded claims without any fear at all.

I know I’m totally over trying to explain to their psychological hang-ups back to them or indulge in what they consider to be insightful intellectual comment –when by any legal and civilised standard - its racial vilification writ large. They don’t seem to know the difference and if they do it simply confirms that its politically organised which raises serious questions about the whole show.

I can also understand that for many of the flat-earthers and conspiracy theorists here, this is representative of their own virtual Australia and it’s their chance to feel important by safely attacking someone who is Muslim or not white such as Salam who in return is racially, sexually and religiously vilified. But apparently this is free speech in Australia, OLO style - where computer posting is the new Klan white hood and sheet.

But I remind myself that this isn’t representative of the mass consciousness of the nation, it’s only a forum on a website. But it does raise important questions about how prevalent and widespread these racist and uninformed ideas are.
Cheers bro.
Posted by Rainier, Thursday, 26 January 2006 10:45:28 PM
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Meredith,

Leyton wears it backwards to keep the sun off the back of his neck and to keep his long hair out of the way. Now that he has no hair, and the Australian Open is indoor, and he's grown up a little, he wears it the correct way around.

Actually, our Aussie 'champ' and 'Australian of the year' sets up his finances through an overseas fund to avoid 'Ausralian' tax. Funny that, 'Australian' of the year is not contributing tax (like the rest of us) that, like it or not, pay for 'Australian' roads, schools hospitals etc etc.

Back to the topic. People, no matter what religion they subscribe to, will twist it to suit themselves. Seems the only line in the Bible the yanks like to play on is 'eye for an eye'. They forget in the New Testament that Jesus quoted 'Turn the other cheek'.
Posted by tubley, Friday, 27 January 2006 12:59:53 AM
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Continued…

The twisting of religion is no different for certain Islamic groups. Male religious leaders have twisted the historical origins of their religion to serve their twisted vision. In the process they commit a considerable degree of evil. Your reference to women's rights and stoning is a highly relevant one in this case. It is barbaric beyond words what some of these people think they can do to women. One of the more horrifying cases was the public hanging of 16 year old Ateqeh Rajabi in Iran, whose only crime was adultery. The male offender only got 100 lashes.

During this hanging most people stood around, watched and did nothing. As for my former reference to the lifestyles of Aussies and Yanks... I could find a lovely comparison between Islams and Yanks too - out of the most prominent nations to strongly support and retain the death penalty, there are Islamic states and... the USA. The latter executes men and women alike, and only outlawed the execution of child criminals on the 1st of March 2005. The USA has the highest death row inmate population in the world, highest rate of gun-related deaths and injuries, highest rate of violent crimes, highest overall prison population per capita, highest rate of violent sexual assault, theft, etc etc which I think says it all. Violence, it seems is the very fabric of this 'great nation' of which we are allies.

And we point the finger solely at Islam? Funny how G.W. Bush can criticise the regimes of so many other nations while there are scores of people dying in the streets of his own country.

I have good American friends, too. Most of which are the first to admit the violence of which their nation has come to stand for. Have a look at this site for endless entertainment on American violence.

www.crimelibrary.com
Posted by tubley, Friday, 27 January 2006 5:24:05 AM
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I think that the main word in Religion and Law is Justification.

If you can justify it, then that appears to be enough.
Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 27 January 2006 8:46:35 AM
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Rainier

I'd dispute your claims of vilification and racism. While there are some who hold such views they are not overly prevelant. I do see a good deal of angry posturing on some issues that pertain to some groups and I see adeal of criticism of religion, I also see a good deal of those things Dirk spoke about. However that has been far from onesided.

I don't think you should play the traditional leftist card of criticising people's views as racist etc just because they are different to yours. I think you'd be much better off debating their views and answering their questions. That sort of thing raises debate ...name calling and labelling only antagonises people, even me.

You see your criticism was a blanket criticism. I don't know whether you think my views racist. On another thread you certainly suggested I was racist but you didn't come out and say so directly. If you are going to chant racist then let's see the specific's rather than the cant and then let us debate your claim.

What you did in this post is generalise and criticise. No detail. No logical presentation. No rigour.
You cannot claim that as 'insightful intellectual comment'.
You've just done what you criticise others as doing.
Chainsmoker has done exactly the same thing and you both dog whistle each other.
Posted by keith, Friday, 27 January 2006 8:58:08 AM
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Perhaps we should have the ABC,the Democrats and the universities to act as monitors here. They are all sooooo impartial. Aren't they ?
Posted by mickijo, Friday, 27 January 2006 3:46:01 PM
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Keith, and this post from you [full of gratuitous advice and criticism of me] is something else?

Or have you deemed yourself to be my mentor here on OLO? how sweet.

That post was in response to someone who I did not feel I needed to give a basic tutorial on racism or humanitarianism.

Want do you want, a blow by blow textual analysis of the blantantly bloody obvious?

Like Dirk suggested, why not get out that book he recommended - then analyse my post again. Knowledge is power.

*The Ethnic Origin of Nations_ by Anthony Smith

let me know if you want others references, I've got plenty.
Posted by Rainier, Friday, 27 January 2006 6:34:08 PM
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Ranier..... if it doesn't begin at Genesis 10 (Table of the Nations) its probably just wild speculation :)

You still have not been forthcoming with the 'white power structures' of which you so bitterly complain...

It was nice to see Australia day include the Ingidenous dancing etc...
very inclusive. Also good to see an Aboriginal from Sydney swans highlighted there.

So sad to see the bitterness of those who burnt the Australian flag.. how amazing that they have the FREEDOM to do this.. just imagine doing that with the Japanese flag if 'they' were the 'invaders'.. I guess such things would never happen under them, because the first time any one tried it they would have lost their heads.

So, those who spat on, and burnt the flag, might do well to reflect on such realities before doing it again.

Personally I didn't feel 'offended' or outraged by that, well a little, but I felt sorry for those who have allowed bitterness to so totally consume them, that they cannot see past that which every other race and tribe has had to face at some time in their history.."dispossession by others"

Read the background to the Battle of Hastings... Celts dominated by Romans, displaced by Angles, by Saxons... by Vikings..and finally by Normans.. life goes on. The 'English' in my own family tree is a combination of all those events.. such is life mate, get over it... or it will drag you under.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 27 January 2006 7:45:55 PM
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'Want do you want, a blow by blow textual analysis of the blantantly bloody obvious?'
That would be a good starting point. At least I'd then know who you think is racist, your definition of racism and I'd also come understand a little better your anger at us not accepting your definition.

I think my son has Smith's book or at least read it. He spoke of it sometime ago. I don't have it in my collection.

What if I find his views unacceptable? Were do we go then?
Posted by keith, Saturday, 28 January 2006 12:56:29 AM
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Boaz D, I'm not sure how to respond to you post because it seems you are projecting your own anxieties/deep psyhosis about a few issues onto to me and calling them my problems. I know this is a standard indoctrination tactic used by god-botherers when they go door knocking for god but I thought you'd be different. Alas it is not meant to be. You keep asking me for evidence of structural or institutional racism - not because you're interested - but because you don't believe it exists and want to cross examine whatever I present. Much of the attention here has focused on individual racist behavior and projections. Has it ever occured to you that just as individuals can act in racist ways, so can institutions? Doh!

Kieth,
Ok, I'll give you some examples. I'm short on posting opportunities so you may have to wait until they let me back on.
On Smith book - fine with disagreeing, but don't let it hold you back from reading other works.

On racist discourse: Many of the posts that I would use to demonstrate to you reveal a backlash mentality - many of these posters would consider themselves as "liberal," "open-minded," "objective," and "neutral." For me there is a clear connection between how white Australians are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege and therefor have difficulty recognising racism, both their own and others, institutional, historical and textual
Posted by Rainier, Saturday, 28 January 2006 9:52:14 AM
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Dear Ranier... I've just watched a Bruce Lee doco, and I thought I'd seen the best ducking and weaving around..but nope :) YOU take the cake.
Instead of responding to my question with even ONE example of 'white structural racism', you accuse me of having a psychosis and that I am only interested in cross examining u for the purposes of denying what you present ? now that.. deserves a 'duh' with about 50 exclamation marks.
After all my posts which openly admit and condemn the ill treatement of less powerful and Indigenous people, you have the gaul to suggest the above ? "come now..let us reason together".....

Instead of looking for 'big words' with which to impress Keith and others.. why not just come to where the rubber meets the road and SAY something about that which concerns you.... after all, it was YOU who began this little direction, and all I'm asking you to do is DEFEND it or EXPLAIN it...but no.. duck...weave..sidestep, accuse.. blah blah :) ur a classic... If you point to valid issues, I'm the LAST who will deny it.

I'm going to be stubborn on this. So get used to the recurring theme until you put some substance to your broad generalized and 'racist' condemnation of 'white' Australians :)

It seems your version of interaction about issues is 'You state your view, u fail to justify or defend it, and then when questioned on it you make hysterical accusations :) No No Noooo..it won't do.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 28 January 2006 10:17:28 AM
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Rainier,

You fella. Me fella.

Cheers bro
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Saturday, 28 January 2006 10:29:44 AM
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Rainer, I agree that institutions are quite capable of many of the same flaws as individuals, racism, sexism etc. I to would be interested in examples of current institutional racism in Australia - I think I am willing to see it if it is carefully pointed out to me.

In regard to your comment "For me there is a clear connection between how white Australians are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege and therefor have difficulty recognising racism, both their own and others, institutional, historical and textual."

Could it be that some indiginous Australians are carefully taught to regognise racism whenever they feel that things do not favour them? Perhaps many issues which are a result of other factors are attributed to racism (with a smattering of real racism tossed in to flavor the mix).

An example I saw a some years ago was test by one of the current affairs shows to see if property agents were racist towards aboriginals.

Two individuals were sent out looking for property to rent. One a young whitish businessman type in a suit, the other an older aboriginal artist groomed somewhat differently, some might say quite scruffily. The whitish guy was much more successful in locating properties he might rent whilst the aboriginal did poorly, he was told that no properties were available and a variety of other excuses which were not given to the whitish guy. The conclussion - property agents were racist against aboriginals, it apparently never occured to those doing the segment that grooming and presentation might be factors a property agent might consider when evaluating a potential tenant.

What was billed as racism might well have been something quite different, I would have been much more concerned about the "racism" if the only obvious difference in the test was the racial appearance of the individuals.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 28 January 2006 10:36:28 AM
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Rainier,

A good starting point, even if lacking specifics. I tend to ramble. That’s my nature. If you object I’d not label you ramblephobic. I’d look askance and wonder about your manners/customs. :-)

‘…For me there is a clear connection between how white Australians are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege and therefore have difficulty recognising racism, both their own and others, institutional, historical and textual’

I agree. We’re all susceptible to this learning. Such things are learnt mostly in the home and are a part of every culture or race. That leads to that great generalisation that every culture is inherently racist. I think you’d generally agree?

In Aboriginal culture are the lessons similar? The content may be different. I don’t know.

Australians of various ethnic backgrounds learn the lessons of their heritage. Even though I consciously am Australian I still see the lessons of my heritage in my behaviours.

Whites may well be taught not to recognise their privilege although I’d hold that may not be a conscious teaching. Many white Australians I know just like being, their interpretation of, Australian and that often leads to them accepting that their social networks and structures eg schools are for their benefit as well as thinking they are there for the benefit of everyone. I think the racism you allude to is that many non white Australians feel alienated by those networks and structures because they do not take into account the particular culturalisms or the alternate ways of thinking of the non whites. In fact they probably do often exclude or denigrate them, greatly. Because whites are oblivious, you see this as racism. Though we’d differ significantly on whether the teaching and learning is deliberate or osmotic, I think I’ve interpreted your view on the institutional and textual racism correctly? The historical is another matter and probably much more straightforward. It would be to do with the historical literature, arts, legal system, government etc from the time of European settlement/invasion.
I’d like to know if I’m on the right tract generally even though we’d acknowledge significant differences?
Posted by keith, Sunday, 29 January 2006 1:28:32 PM
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Jkenno,

Today was the first time I have ever read your posts. Your posts are "high camp bordering on fluff intersecting piffle."

I've never quoted "the great man". You know that. You want to align "the great man" with me because the Third Reich pinched his "Superman".

Before you post one would hope you would at least think first. I don't have to due to the fact that I am superior. Superior to you at least.

By now you are probably running around the house using crude language.
Calm down.

What really concerns me is that you think you know "the great man". You don't have the mental capacity to even understand the introduction
let alone the philosophy.

If you want to come the intellectual raw prawn I suggest you study up. You're on my "turf" and you ain't makin' it.

I repeat I have never quoted the "great man". Jkenno wants to quote the "great man" but hasn't got a clue what "the great man" is saying.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Sunday, 29 January 2006 4:59:11 PM
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"I'm for white pride"

Who said that a few forums ago? That's the sort of statement that could lead people to the conclusion that one was perhaps, dare one say it, less than likely to have an open mind? Not judging here, just suggesting there might be some reason for the opposition to play the infamous "race card" against someone down the track.

Boaz_David,

I"m in awe of you but also find you really confusing. We tend to box one another into little compartments we think will fit all occasions and I plead guilty to having done that with you, which is why I find you confusing. I have come to two (probably temporary in your case) conclusions: You don't stick to the same line on every debate because you consider issues in isolation and weigh up arguments on their merit, which is admirable. The second conclusion: You and Ranier probably have a lot more in common than you realise.

Please forgive me for the assumptions here, since I don't know either of you outside of these forums (or fora if you like to show off) but it seems to me that both of you are primarily concerned with the welfare of humanity first but from different perspectives.

Look back at debates you've had over the last few months and you might see what I mean. Ranier tends to approach things from a race perspective (understandable)and you tend to approach from a cultural perspective (also understandable. But at the end of the day your shared concerns are the same.

I don't mean to pry or anthing, since you seem to be more familiar with one another than I am with either of you.

If I'm being excessively polite it's because I think that the excessive rudeness that turns up over these issues tends to prevent people from objectively considering one another's points of view. How can that help solve our problems?

United we stand, divided we fall. What is more important there, the unity/division or who we're talking about when we say "we"?
Posted by chainsmoker, Sunday, 29 January 2006 5:53:26 PM
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chainsmoker,

"I'm for white pride". Why not.

Some Afro-American Bob Marley lookalike says "black is beautiful" and everyone agrees(not me).

If there are no people proud of being white well then eventually there are no whites. The eradication of the white race is not going to happen. Sorry to all non-whites.

This is not an exercise in hate. It's about the truth.

Nick Griffin spoke the truth and he ends up in court.

I'm not subtle but the enemy is.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Sunday, 29 January 2006 6:29:23 PM
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Friedrich,

I didn't mean to insult you, just to point out how some others might interpret everything you say on any subject from that point of view. I don't, and can't, know whether that does colour every comment you make. I daresay you have opinions about all sorts of things that don't involve race. I just meant to point out that some may not listen to anything you have to say because that part of your views is how they interpret what you have to say about anything. If you said something about the best way to grow tomatoes some people would ignore you because of the white pride comment. That's all.

As far as the white/black pride thing goes, I can understand both sides wanting to protect themselves when they feel threatened. I'm more interested in why some feel threatened and I don't. Personally, I think that industrial stuff like Vegemite production going overseas is more of a threat to the Australian way of life than the number or type of people we import. The bottom line is that money matters more than people whatever colour they are, and that's what I find most offensive.

Kind regards
Posted by chainsmoker, Sunday, 29 January 2006 7:02:45 PM
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Hmmm... this was a very depressing set of comments to read read for a "non-white Australian"... which is less contradiction of terms than "white australian" to be honest.
Posted by savoir68, Sunday, 29 January 2006 8:56:49 PM
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CHAINSMOKER....
I appreciate your kind words.. let me fill you in a bit more on some aspects of my posting and re Ranier.

Firstly, I tend to post on 2 levels. The 'Citizen' level which is the expression of my viewpoint simply as a citizen in democracy, and those posts might include references to organized self defence, immigration issues, racial issues and Industrial relations type issues.

Secondly, I post as a Christian (conservative evangelical) on topics where that is appropriate.

Then, I sometimes mix both, because I can see in glaring obviousness where it fits. Example.. Andrew Bartlett came out with this beauty

[Personally, I'm not a big fan of any religion. Many of them have great ethical frameworks, but I don't see the value of the supernatural stuff]

I immediately broke into a smile bigger than that of a cheshire cat, when I recalled Andrews little tryst with Alchohol fueled anger and molestation in parliament :) Well... he might not be able to see the value of the supernatural, but I sure can ! "Dont be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit" "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy peace patience kindness and self control" etc.....

RANIER and ME.. I think you are quite right.. we are probably skinning the same cat from different directions. But he is very hard to tie down, I've emailed with him a couple of times but its 'his' turn :) so.. The weird thing is... I totally support Indigneous rights and culture and am desperate to see more Stephen Hagans and Raniers get up and fulfill their potential. But Ranier seems to be stuck in this 'race' loop... and constantly falls back into this 'structural racism' cesspool. He thinks I want to attack him.. when I don't. He he does love 'big' words :)

I wrote an email to Stephen Hagan today, expressing my openness for him to have a meal with us anytime, and to ask about this 'nigger' sign he is trying to get removed in Towoomba.. all power to him.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 29 January 2006 9:11:17 PM
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Post one:

BD,
First, I think Stephen and I are fulfilling our potential. I’m puzzled (well not really) why you think we would we want your mentorship or blessing? We abandoned missionary counsel and sanctioning long ago.

Secondly, The ‘race loop’ you refer to is a result of my critique on those posts (including yours) which bastardised and trivialised any real cogent approach to intercultural critique. Perhaps the reason you think it’s a loop is that you haven’t resolved your own whiteness with your own non-white family? You certainly use them as evidence of your ‘cultural and anthropological credentials’ often enough.

But let’s get down to business. What I witness here is not cultural critique any real competence. What I do see are pithy epithets, random and stereotypical observances, lots of unfounded claims and heaps of blatantly racist claims about Muslim culture non white people - including my people.

Overall, while many (not all) attempt to deliberately avoid those old notions of bio-racial inferiority, the appropriation and use of the concept of 'culture and religious difference' is used to justify what I believe is of neoracism. Cultural differences are put up as unbridgable divides between white Australians and Muslim Australians. In my broad brush approach I call it racism and often because of the brevity one must use here.

i.e., I'm not racist but blah blah.

The outcome of this approach is no different to the classical racist theories that divided humanity into different and hierarchical 'breeds' of humans. While this has been scientifically disproved, it still is a strong informer of the ways in which people here have written and attacked who they know as non-white people.

Pastor Boaz, how could you possibly support Indigenous rights but question the existence of the institutional racism that informed and justified the removal of children and State sanctioned appropriation (theft) of Aboriginal wages, land and self determination? But to you this wasn’t structural or institutional was it. These were simply cross cultural difference or the work of the devil or both. Yeah sure.

* Post number 2 tomorrow. ><((((º>`
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 29 January 2006 10:58:10 PM
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"The eradication of the white race is not going to happen".

I hope not. You havn't paid the rent yet.
Posted by Rainier, Sunday, 29 January 2006 11:22:43 PM
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Dear Ranier
sorry it took this long to respond.. specially as you have finally made an attempt to articulate the actual issues which are at the heart of your on-going gripe about ‘white (racist) power structures’. Truth is, I became swamped in all the other issues, not realizing u had responded to me.

Ok.. thanx.

On aboriginal wages withheld. I have advocated that this ‘sin’ be repented of with the utmost urgency in other posts, and I totally agree with you that such an act WAS/IS institutional racism and is evil !.

Taking children.

I would guess (correct me if I’m wrong) that you yourself might be one of them?

That issue is more difficult for me to wade through. My position is as follows:
a) If it was a policy of ‘forced assimilation of full blood Aborigines. I believe it was WRONG.
b) If it was aimed at protecting mixed children from being ostracized by the indigenous community, it was ‘RIGHT’.
c) If it was simply to ‘save/protect’ the ‘white’ part of the mixed child, it was WRONG.

Such a policy does not exist today to my knowledge.

Expropriation of Land.
Guess what.. we ALSO experience that, as do people in just about every country. Its called ‘might is right’ even though its blatantly wrong to you and me. i.e. when a government has determined that such land is needed for ‘public good’ they take it.
In the case of Aboriginal land, we have to face up to history here, and recognize that the settling of Australia by whites/Brits was without question an invasion. It was ‘theft’ in the moral sense. Why do you think I’ going to argue with you about that ?
Bear in mind, those ‘Brits’ who came here were ‘Anglo/Saxon/Celt/Danish/Norwegian/French in genetic makup, and each one eflecting an INVASION of England. Today you would not know it. Perhaps the policy of assimilation was based on the idea that racial conflict can result in ‘new’ people living in harmony ?
What solution (realistically) do you see for the ‘land’ issue today ? (define it also pls)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 7:17:46 AM
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