I unfortunetely can't tell you where islam originates, because i don't believe it does, just like anything, you have your followers, and you have the people who dont wish to follow.
Can you tell me where Law originates?
I dont think it possibly could originate anywhere because no matter where you go, theres always gonna be people, whether its aussies, lebos, greeks, anyone, there's always gonna be those who will not obide by it, and this is what we are faced with unfortunetely.
You said "Im not at all attributing the racial violence in Sydney to islam but there is certainly anecdotal evidence to the contray."
Where is that evidence, lebenese people aren't all muslim, they are a mixture, it has nothing to do with islam, i thought it was about the way the minority of the lebenese people in Australia were acting towards others.
No matter what, unfortunetely Australia will never grow out of racism, its always gonna be here, where its lebenese, or asians, or Anoriginals.

Dear Zeftstar [PART1]
firstly, welcome to OLO !
I've not seen any post from you before, so your interaction is appreciated.
You need to appreciate though, many of us here speak with considerable passion, and this might be a bit disconcerting for you.

Regarding "Islam is a religion of peace". Many here will agree, and many others will disagree. I think it is more accurate to say as follows:
"Islam, as practiced by most Muslims in Australia, is peaceful" Yes, you do have the ratbag fringe of offspring among your community, as we do in ours. And of course, many of those 'ratbag' element are certainly not what could be called 'practicing Muslims'.

That said, I hope you will appreciate how we percieve and view Islam from an Australian cultural perspective. We can view it through the lenz of 'Those Muslims we have encountered' and/or 'Islam as a doctrine and a history'

On the first way, I'll share with you a story. If your local council came out with a new rule as follows: "All people attending local council functions MUST eat haram food" how would u feel ? Welcome ? I doubt it. So putting this the other way around "No Haram food can be served at local council meetings" when this is a specifically "Islamic(and Jewish)" food law. How do you think Ausses who love their ham sandwiches will react to such a rule ? I can tell you. OUTRAGE.

This happened in Melbourne. The percentage of Muslims in that community was approx 13% but the mayor (a Muslim) was elected in good faith by the residents on his 'policy'. The last thing they expected was for 'Sharia' law to be imposed on their 'meet the council' functions. So, this is an example of 'Muslims' we encounter in daily life. Not "all" are like this, but it is indicative of a mentality which seeks to advantage itself and disadvantage others on the grounds of religion/race.

continued....

Zefstar,

I noted with particular interest your claims that the violent Lebanse youth in Sydney were A: '(non)practising or faithfull muslims, they are simply being committed by careless, thoughtless and stupid people, who have no meaning in life'.
B:'lebenese people aren't all muslim, they are a mixture, it has nothing to do with islam'.

Now the evidence is that the vast majority of violent behaviour committed in Sydney is by mobs of lebanese youth who have some connection with Islam.

Tell me, doesn't claiming these people are not muslims allow you to condemn their behaviour outright. For isn't there a tenet within your religion that demands Muslim Solidarity ahead of solidarity with those who are non-muslim?

Since you claim these lebanese thugs are not muslims then why don't you condemn outright, clearly and unequivocally, the racist rapes, the mob bashings, the torching of christian churches, the bashing of surf-lifesavers, the taunting of women who do not dress in the muslim mode and finally the gathering of these non-Mulism at Lakemba mosque before they set out for non-muslim 'revenge attacks?

Just so you get the picture, the thugs who rioted and set upon innocent people at Cronnulla were more than likely christan in upbringing and their actions were a disgrace. They bought shame upon Australia, their beliefs, their families and themselves and I roundly condemn them. See no apologies, no excuses and no denials that they were probably not christian anglo youth.

Come on follow my lead...you do as I have done.

BD, I appreciated the approach taken in that last post. More of that and this place will be a lot more pleasant.

The example of the local council raises some interesting issues. Personally I'm opposed to religious beliefs being imposed on those that don't share those beliefs and share some of your outrage about that particular action, on the other hand while I enjoy the odd ham sandwich I don't really give a toss if it is on a particular menu or not. It is more an issue of principle that the specific consequences of that action. I'm guessing that the odd free ham sandwich at a "meet the council" function is not a major driving force in your life.

I struggle to see where the mayors actions are really any different to those of anybody else who seeks to limit the freedoms of others because of their own beliefs. Would you be similarly outraged at a mayor who let their own beliefs come into play in the approval process for a sex shop?

My understanding is that you support the idea of people bringing their religious beliefs to public roles they may hold. Part of the very concept of Family First seems to be to bring christian values and beliefs to australian politics. I'm assuming that they (along with every other person) will to some extent act on their own beliefs about right or wrong. Former Sennator Harradine certainly appeared to do so on a regular basis. Are the mayors actions any worse than those of Senator Harradine who I gather was a major player in the RU486 restrictions.

At the core of this issue is wether or not you believe that religious beliefs (and the choices that flow from them) should be imposed on others. Personally I think not but know that is unlikely to ever truly be the case. Maybe we need some reinforcement of the idea of seperation of church and state.

R0bert

Is that application for the Sex shop in David's local council area likely to be received with an open mind? Hardly.
Application for one in a council dominated by practicising Christians is likely to be approved, for it is likely the will of the majority would be acted upon.

Many of the issues Senator Harradine involved his Christian beliefs in were right to life issues. He'd be in alignment with Islamic teaching on those as well. They weren't issues relating to sandwiches.

But Halal sandwiches instead of ham sandwiches is downright silly. Why don't vegetarian Mayors ban Meat sandwiches?

How bloody stupid. If that's the nature of the smallmindedness of the Mayor, then he'll get what he deserves. Voters will give him an environment where he can demand and get all the halal whenever he wants and if he still wants to visit the council then he should be given a choice... Ham and/or halal and/or non halal.

Zefstar, no doubt as a learned and practicing muslim one would know the origins of the Quran and of Islam itself, your ignorance of this proves my argument. One might describe the gathering of 'Lebanese' outside the Lakemba Mosque, the firebombimg of churches and shootings at christian gatherings as anecdotal. Furthermore, you have failed to even contest my argumnts of the underlying hate in Islam, might it be that your knowledge of Islam is dangerously small?