I have great respect for Tanveer Ahmed, especially after reading one of his previous articles "Brand Islam", as he is the first Muslim that has written a true account, however confronting, about the nature of the widespread support for terrorism within the Islamic community.

I agree with most of his article here, although I disagree with his comment that it is a Lebanese problem and not a Muslim one. I see no evidence to support this claim, but overwhelming evidence to the contrary. However, I agree that the Lebanese Muslims brought out here were largely unskilled, as opposed to other Muslims who have come. This is why the USA doesn't have the problems the Europeans, or we, do.

I say this because Lebanese Christians aren't involved in anything like their Muslim bretheren, yet they also came out in large numbers. They are heavily involved in organised crime though, particularly in Kings Cross.

I found it interesting how Tanveer mentioned mental illness in the Islamic community is high. I recently read a report, which was hard to believe at first given the numbers, but was an official British Medical Report, stating that 1 in 3 spastic born children in the U.K are Pakistani's. This, it followed, was because well over 80% of ALL Pakistani marriages are first cousin relationships.

With social practises like these, it is not hard to see why many Australians think many ethnic communities are xenophobic, extremely racist. I mean, imagine Australians of Scottish heritage going back to Aberdeen to find a wife, and even then, only among your own clan! Many people are still uncomfortable with the concept that non-whites can be racist, which is bizarre given all the behaviour Tanveer points out, particularly the gang rapes.

All in all though, a great article Tanveer. You are truly a moderate voice within the Islamic community, of genuine character.

Thank you for such an insightful offering. As opposed to the "inciteful" bigoted and racial commentary I have seen lately.

What we are seeing is a response to social conditions that have marginalised a segemnt of our society. Just as the Macquarie Fields Incident was blown up by a tactical response, so too has Cronulla spawned a 'them and us' mentality.

In 1995 a Trinity Grammar student was stabbed to death. A link to his class position was so strong that some schools told students to remove their ties and blazers outside of their school so as to avoid any possible retaliation.

There is a direct correlation between class and marginalisation in Australia and the social stratum that the recent violence has shown.

Meanwhile the Liberal/National coalition and the ALP have both negleted to provide the basic requirements for social cohesion for ALL Australians yet have been busy providing more tax breaks to the rich.

So it is in the interest of the elite to maintain the anger between the lower classes, while the media continues to show the violence and therefore perpetuates it. Our leaders can then introduce tougher laws and penalties to control the 'rowdy elements'.

It is time for Government to govern and provide effective services for all areas of society. To provide Essential Services (health , child care, public transport) to marginalised suburbs. To provide assistance to business that would enable them to employ more younger people.

We are all Australians, we all deserve to live happily together whether Arab, Westie, Budgie, Anglo, Asian, Indigenous or Islander.
Its up to the Government to arrest the downhill financial slide of the lower classes or suffer the consequences.
Reading and understanding the history of the French revolution and how it came about might be a good start.

I share Benjamins views word for word a well put together post and the first comment is exactly as I think on the issue.
However truth is in very real danger in Australia as we are asked not to include honestly held thoughts in posts if they may be seen by some as unwelcome.
The fact is freedom of speach can suffer at the hands of the very left as often as by Howards dreadfull acts.

Tanveer, thank you for giving us what we so badly need to begin understanding the issue -- factual information without prejudice. Coming from someone of your background makes it doubly forceful.

And it's nice to find this time that Benjamin and I agree to some extent! Let's continue in this vein. It will be even better if we try to avoid using labels like "left" and "right" and "PC academics" etc. These don't help us towards understanding and solving problems.

Tanveer

Your religion and professional position give you specific and balanced insights that are streets ahead of other commentators on this issue.

You are not a petty politician, Arab community advocate, sociologist or generalist.

I agree with your approach to narrow down the Sydney riots issue to something manageable. This allows the police and other social services to handle the root of the problem (the post 1975 Lebanese (Muslim) immigrants. And within that their young male offspring.

All soughts of special interest groups nationally and within OLO have agenda's to blow this issue into an anti Howard or anti Muslim crusade.

There is no hope of persuading OLO's large pack of anti Muslims that their fevered interest in Koranic verses is of little interest to Lebanese youth who want to get out and about around town rather than read the Koran.

So its better to handle this issue from the angle of criminology, policing and ethnic studies rather than comparitive religion.

That said I'm equivicating between wide ranging or particular solutions on this issue. Your article gives me some hope of a manageable solution.

Sorry Tanveer you're wrong here: >>... there is a Lebanese problem. It is not an Arab problem, nor is it really a Muslim one.<<

What do you mean by "not really" a muslim (problem)?

For the first time in the history of Australia we have imported a people with set of values and beliefs completely alien to the common canvas.

Islam does not discriminate between race or mother tongue. When you are born a muslim you are in that system that regulates all things in your life. Right? Intolerance of others is basic tenets in islam.

We had the Italians, the Greeks, the Vietnamese, etc...None imposed their ways on the rest of us. They had the usual integration pains, but are fully blend in our society.

It is only muslims who stand out anywhere they go.

Don't blame the Lebanese - most of them are upright Christian citizens who are contributing much to Australia.

This is not a “racial” BUT a “religious” issue. Like it or not.

Coach, I dont like it.
Fanning the flames of religious intolerence does not solve the problem.
This is a social issue for society as a whole.
Marginalised youth is the problem. Government intervention is the answer.
It is the wellbeing of people and society that matters.
Yes, Australian has had many peolples from around the world settle in Australia, me being one of them, and all people moving to a new place need to be supported by the community. The Government invites people to this country, it is their responsibility to support them.

Lets get away from name calling , lets find out what the underlying problems are, as Tanveer Ahmed has offered, and have our elected representatives create opportunities for marginalised peoples of all backgrounds to live peacefully.

The posts were reading so well till I got to the one posted at 11:01:40 AM

Who won't integrate on this thread?

Glad to see so many posters interested in a balanced viewpoint and keen to solve problems rather than seeking leverage off a problem to help their own special interest.

It was a great article, some things to learn out of it. Some of the issues refered to as being factors in development problems for the kids seem to becoming widespread in general society. I've certainly seen some very undisciplined kids around, the only saving grace is that they may not be being raised with quite the same views about how women should dress.

How do we move on from here and help these youth (even the ones who need to spend some time in jail) start to have some respect for our society, some respect for the choices women make in our society? How do we ensure that they have viable career choices and raise kids who don't carry on the tradition? If we don't do so we may be stuck with a difficult problem for a long time.

R0bert

Tanveer. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou!
Yours is an article that doesn't cloud the issue, tells it exactly how it is and makes no apologies.
The people I feel the worst for are those migrants in our community, whether they be lebanese or not, that have embraced the nation and contributed to building what we have today. They are the individuals and families who will truly suffer from the lefts constant denial of the fact that living in Australia entails responsibilities too.
The deliberate and naive assessment of the problem by some commentators from the left has as per usual clouded the issue with semantics and nonsense about 'John 'the racist' Howard.
The bottom line is that law enforcement angencies must be allowed to enforce the law on ALL segments of the community to facilitate the liberties that MOST Australians love.
Recognising the problem and not being too afraid to raise sollutions is the only way to fix it.

Some helpful insights about Muslim (esp Lebanese) youth identity and the family issues behind it. However, I must disagree with Tanveer's mitigation of a culture of hatred and disrespect toward Western womanhood, as much as he acknowledges it as "worrying".

To say that a home-life of respect toward modestly-dressing females produces the very opposite attitude (ie vulgarity and violence) in public when confronted with less-modest women, is hardly "plausible". More likely it's a home-life of unchecked disrespect to females that then blossoms into more blatant expression when there are no familial ties to restrain.

Either way, to explain such behaviour as a triggered response to some "bad woman" flag in the head of a young male is to excuse aggression that is always wrong, whether the woman is "good" or "bad". It's like the recent statements of young sheik about the immodest dress of some women "inviting" assault. Western dress may well be immodest, but that's never a mitigation for aggression.

Tanveer Ahmed is probably right that a “fevered interest in Koranic verses is of little interest to Lebanese youth…”

The cause of the riots and turmoil involving Muslims that we so often see in the world in general and last week in Sydney in particular is not Islam, per se. Before anybody faints, let me explain: I mean that this violence is not actually done in the name of Islam or by youths reciting Quranic verses. (Of course, on other occasions, we see terrorists yelling “Allah Akbar” as they cut off infidel heads…). In that sense this is not a “Muslim” issue.

However, you must understand that in the recent events in Sydney (as those in Paris) Islam is an enabling agent, or catalyst, that makes these events possible and gives them meaning. The teachings of Islam provide the intellectual and moral basis for the hate found in Muslims, which lead to events of intolerance and violence that are characteristic of Islam.

So we have groups of young people – gangs if you will – that do not act in the name of Islam, but have in their Islamic heritage the roots of their rejection of common values and their isolation from the larger society. They may not be experts in Islam, but they know enough about it to absorb Islamic attitudes toward infidels that manifest themselves in their behavior. So yes, there is a strong (but underlying) religious component at work here.

It is also certain that in the future Islam will play a much bigger role in the lives of these youths, and in their violence. This is natural because as people attack and are attacked they seek support of their own kind. In Islam they find respect and comfort, even if it is the respect given to the dangerous and the comfort of shared anger. This is not good, but it is they way it will be.

There is nothing we can do but be honest. Muslims cannot, or better, will not see the truth about their faith. They are in denial. It will get worse!

kactuzkid

The general problem is that the (mainly) Lebanese groups either can't or don't want to integrate with Australian society. Any real solution will have to be cognisant of the root cause of each particular problem.

That means not all solutions will be pain-free, while others will be.

Where a Lebanese is being utterly pig-headed (growing up in the outer northern suburbs of Melbourne, I've met some who are), there's no amount of rationalising that they're going to listen to. And where some Aussies want to put up the cultural fortress to keep the "Lebs" out, there's no amount of trying to break in that will work for a Lebanese person. Ultimately, the only way to deal with this impasse is for the Lebanese to either: integrate, accept that they can't integrate and keep a low profile, or go back to their home country. On the latter point, who knows, if the Lebanese Government decides to get serious about growing its economy, it may put a call out to its expatriates to come back home. As Lebanese are a nationalistic group, there'd be some that would be off like a shot. This would be at least an element in the solution to the race/cultural problems.

From what I read of the riots it appears that a group of moslem Lebanese, that's how they describe themselves. Outnumbered and cravenly belted, even using their boots, one or two surf lifesavers for what ever reason.
Then I also read where Australian girls dressed in bikinis have been for a while now abused by these same Lebanese - again their term - for wearing bikinis.
Then the riots where angry but also cowardly and stupid Australians took too these Lebanese - their term - blokes.
Then these Lebanese - their term - retaliated by attacking the stupid attackers - er no! They retaliated by savagely and cowardly attacking those who had no part in this riot, just choosing at random and using weapons on their defenceless victims. Then vandalising innocent members of the public's vehicles. Then on to courageously abusing Christians including women and children at a service culminating in torching Church buildings.
Hardly appropiate revenge I should think.
We have moslems who look on all other religions as unbelievers, though perhaps not all these thuggish Lebanese - their term - are believing moslems. Yet they have imbibed this 'we are the only true religion Christians and others are unbelievers' all their lives.
Then we have the drunken cowardly Australians who some may be Christian or nominal Christians. They also have read what the moslem mullahs preach about other religions being unbelievers and worthy of death. At the same time most of them see moslems as arrant pagans, and by Bible definition that's just what they are.
While we have in the main moslem hate preachers telling moslems that their religion is the only one, of course there could be others not preaching hatred. But whilst we have these bigots and whilst we have Lebanese - their term - who refuse to be called Australians we will unfortunately have strife. We will have poisonous neo nazis and their filthy ilk using these events, riots to further their own ends.
In closing I really do think that john howard should take a bow. numbat

Very balanced article Tanveer. Thank you.

Tanveer,
As usual you provide an honest, insightful viewpoint. That you included education, economic and familial issues, more than just religion, shows you to be wise beyond most who ‘dip in’ to the subject.

Given that you are a busy man with your own life to lead, would it be possible to receive some suggested reading material, which others can utilise to educate themselves. It may assist in dousing the inflammatory rhetoric we constantly see on this site.

Once again, thank you…

Thought provoking article,

I do agree that the problem is not moslems per se, but the large groups of thugs, that parade around loudly proclaiming their lebanese heritage, whilst attacking both individuals and property. The families of these thugs (and their community) have made little concerted effort to restrict or prevent these activities, in fact they do not condemn them.

This has lead to the formation of a criminal underclass, however in this instance a criminal underclass that seems to revel in attempting to bring down the social order, and attack the fabric thereof. Those that have no respect whatever for the boundaries inherent upon civilized society in general, and ours in particular seem to not realise the results of infringing upon the rights of too many within it. This is surprising considering that according to Tanveer Ahmed, their parents arrived here as the result of a war that started for the same basic reasons.

Face it people, the majority of Australians this week have been asking how to deal with the problems seen in Sydney. I suggest that all societies have specific responses to revolt, tyranny and oppression, and while it may be unpopular it is accepted by the majority.

PS Plantagent - so you agree with racial profiling? (Yes I know so does Tanveer Ahmed).

I remember my first boss as a 15yr old was of Lebanese origin, he was excellent to work for. Today I cannot say he was Christian, Druze, Muslim or Jewish for that matter, it wasn't relevant years ago and it's still irrelevant.

What was relevant was that he was some Aussie guy who needed someone to work for him. It sounds silly to put it that way but he, I, we, didn’t speak of a God if we had one and it truly never occurred to me to ask him. On the other hand, it was significant that he came from Lebanon. Firstly, it explained the accent, the coffee and the good food I got at lunchtime. Secondly, he told me about somewhere I had once been. He told me of cedars, snow and coffee shops and the Paris that was Beirut. They were interesting conversations and not wasted on me.

It didn't matter later that my two best school friends came from Greek and Lebanese backgrounds. We three felt sorry for the daughter of an extremely conservative Italian migrant who wouldn’t let her out on the weekends in case she met a boy…eek!! We thought it harsh and she was desperately lonely because she didn’t fit in with her peer group.

When I lived in Asia, our Caucasian family learned to ignore remarks about "round-eyes” being inherently unclean, uncivilised. After moving back from the Middle East, I cried because of all the scary-looking "ghosts" in my Australian classroom. I immediately wanted to go back even though when I was over there, people used to pull my hair and touch me constantly because I looked strange to them.

I think most Australians are deeply, irreversibly socially entwined no matter what our backgrounds – that’s partly why it’s a great country. However, some must integrate very consciously and make a real effort to get along with, and understand, Australian culture. Like my own dear NESB dad knows very well, he had to leave behind some of his own foreign behaviour and cultural prejudices where they best belonged - overseas.

I would agree to a point about the Lebanese problem, but I have some Lebanese friends, Egyptian, Iranian, one thing in common, they are hard working Australians- no they are not parasites, nor are they Moslem.
One has a business, Fuel station, which he has owned and ran for 5 months: But has been robed 25 or so odd times , broken into 7 times, credit card fraud 6 times, and drive off 21 odd times, all have been reported to police, only on 10 occasions police attended, other times not interested. And this is defending Private property rights?
One thing in common , CVR footage shows a 100% Middle Eastern strike rate, and also common , Nil closure and nil attendance, so Is this a Democratic Country or are we just headed for the abyss, and Socialist Psychopaths dictate there is not a problem? Well if it was a young Anglo, be sure he will not upset the Propaganda regime, and he is an easy target, ethnics tend to fight back at police and shoot at them and tend to out number Police, so police move on: Yes this sounds familiar. Lets not forget about the Stalking of Women, following them home.
The Liberal PC left can rott in hell and if they need some help!

A really good balanced article.

It looks like multiculturalism is here to stay whether we like it or not, and it looks like most immigrants will continue to arrive from muslim countries.

I would like to hear some ideas on what we can do to make this influx as smooth as possible so we don't end up with more scenes like Cronulla.

People think this will never happen in Melbourne. Why? What do they think Melbourne is doing that Sydney has failed to do?

[Deleted because it was primarily abusive and contravened forum rules.]

Friedrich ol' china, you're having a lend of us aren't you? Surely no one would present himself/herself as such an incoherent moron in a forum like this unless they were acting for a laugh. You're trying to satirize the neo-Nazis -- right? If so, you're doing pretty well.

I live and work with a wide variety of people, and all of us agree that types like the one you're depicting for us are as great a threat to Australia as Al Qaeda and other murderers.

Anyway, Fred, you've had your laugh. Stop clowning now and give us some intelligent ideas about how we can make old Oz a happier democracy for all. That's what this democratic forum is aiming to do.

Crabby,

I'm not an imitation.

I assume you mean "intelligent discussion" as in everyone kisses each others backside.

Let me get one thing perfectly clear. I am for white pride. If you don't like that bad luck. Unlike you Crabby I love what Australia used to be. The purity of the white race is at stake. That means jack to you I know. You'll only ever find white men in the trenches boyo.

And Crabby please don't call me china. I will get one of your African mates to throw a spear at you.

FRIEDRICH,
are you Christian?

Dr Tanveer

Thank you for an extremely well balanced paper.

You have called a spade a spade - which is not common (from my reading experience) of high profile Muslim/Islamic leaders who inevitably call a spade a shovel.

If, as a white Australian, I had written a similar paper, I have no doubt that people would have damned me for being racist.

As a mental health nurse, I was very interested in your assertions about the high incidence of mental illness amongst Lebanese young males. I did find the 1:3 figure rather unbelievable, but then I worked in mental health systems in the inner city and outer west where Lebanese people were not prevalent residents whilst I was employed in those areas.

It was really comforting to see so many posters who positively acknowledged your article. Of course there will always be the usual concrete thinkers who respond in stereotypical ways. C'est la vie.

Cheers
Kay

Thank you Tanveer for this background, which is sadly lacking in the commercial media.

No offence, but I wonder on what evidence you are making your claims about the parenting styles of the Lebanese community, and the effects thereof. It's not that I don't believe you, but I am wary of anyone drawing any conclusions of causation based on their own observation alone.

This means I would trust your subjective experience that young men within the lower strata of the Lebanese community appear to have some sort of discipline problem, although I'm not entirely convinced at this point that it is any worse than within Anglo families. However, what is the evidence that this is solely a result of poor parenting, rather than, say, a toxic combination of parenting, absence of a father figure, Islam, feeling isolated in general and particularly after 9/11, and strong negative social mores in a reinforcement loop (possibly feeding from all the former)?

Trying to establish causation is incredibly important, because it influences how a society should try to ameliorate a problem.

Tanveer, I take it back. On re-reading your words, this stood out.

"It is obvious to anyone who has worked in public education, the health sector or the police in south-western Sydney. I have seen it working in hospitals where children as young as five regularly abuse and swear at staff with minimal retribution from parents. In mental health, young Lebanese boys make up a disproportionate number of those who present in a drug induced or chaotic, violent state. Once the possibility of a psychiatric disorder is ruled out, the patients are inevitably referred to the police."

You still can't prove why it is the case, but this is a pretty good indication.

It reminded me of a conversation I had over 10 years ago with a school friend who was teaching at a school in Sydney with a high proportion of Lebanese students. She told me that her male Lebanese students completely ignored her lessons and attempts at discipline. She claimed this was because the students were taught that women were lesser beings, and that when she spoke to the parents, she got the same sort of lack of respect.

I wrote it off at the time as some sort of racism. And this is the danger - this is why we need fearless, objective and unbiased voices in the media.

The problem Muslims (i.e. bigots) have is much like that a severely overweight person might have around the trim and fit.

Whilst none of the fit people ever overtly or intentionally make the obese one uncomfortable, perhaps the wandering mind of the fat person, by virtue of their obvious difference, intuits that the fit people, by virtue of their fitness, would probably occasionally be thinking critically toward them.

Many Muslims WOULD HAVE TO feel uncomfortable in just this way around us non-burkha tolerant types, around a culture who cannot but think critically of the burkha, despite how much it denies it, for it represents NOTHING BUT the view that women are first and foremost "flesh," for what is "modest" about it?

Furthermore, in light of already existing tensions between feminists or human rights activists and the more conservative Australians, Muslims then come to be thought of as an example of hypocrasy in the wider debate re, say, the middle-class feminist's conception of the so-called plight of working-class housewives. Moreover, since this in turn manifests the inconsistencies inherent in multiculturalism, Muslims will have difficulty in the Western world so long as they have no Luther.

And these difficulties or tensions Muslims experience as a result of this, i.e their alienation, is, as for the fat person, largely the result of a xenophobic disposition to conspiracy and paranoia. Hence the mass hysteria spread by a Trad or Hizbuttputdickhere

Coyote will you please move a bit towards reality? and truth too you appear to want to blame this whole thing on the Australian goverment?
On other than actions that are both out of step and unwanted.
The thread started well and continues to reveal a very real problem in atitude of a few not a neglect by the world just bad behaivior.
Not all ills have money as a cause .

Dear Friedrich
may I take a moment to put to you a hopefully better approach than 'white pride/racial purity' approach, which is so often linked to some of the more violent and unmentionable debate killing aspects of history ?

I identify with what you are saying, but any concept of 'racial purity' is frought with terrible dangers, and is unlikely to be accepted by the majority of the community. We may be 'white' by and large, but culturally and racially we are very diverse. (Scots, Irish, Celtic,AngloSaxon, German, Scandinavian, plus many southern European and Eastern Euro's as well)

I propose for your consideration, a more achievable and less potentially violent direction. (being married to an Asian and having mixed children gives me a rather strong vested interest in this of course)

CULTURAL SOLIDARITY, where we seek to define Aussie Identity in terms of the following: (within a framework recognition of the dispossession of the indigenous, and an effort to reconcile with them)

-Judao Christian values which is the most identifiable link of all the races I mentioned above.
-Early Australian history (pioneers, art, poetry etc) which all have a very distinct Anglo flavor.

The issue then becomes "How" to integrate migrants into this overall framework ? I suggest mainly through education and friendship, but more critically, back at the first base, of 'immigration' procedures.
I would insist on the outlining and study of and committment to (with citizenship dependant on loyalty to) the values of the Judao Christian heritage and ethno-cultural background/flavor of this nation.

Numbers of migrants from anywhere would be strictly controlled such that none could ever become a political or cultural threat. We are enriched by other cultures, this is undeniable. But this must never be at the expense of our own.

For REASON's sake.. there is nothing 'Christian' about a 'racial purity' approach to society so please don't try that hateful ploy again ! Attempting to 'damage' the rest of us by that is despicable. You should ask this "Can you demonstrate your view is Biblical" ? A far less offensive approach !

I tend to agree with Tanveer about the Lebanese boys not being well disciplined by families. This is what happens when families are caught up in conflict and issues. All of their time is spent dealing with problems and the children tend to run amok.

These kids are growing up in hostile, angry environments and where they are exposed to anguish, despair, hate, aggression, violence, racism and war. These children are being created.

The law doesn't look at prevention nor does it provide an avenue to discipline children in any way that would produce a positive outcome so people get frustrated so they become biased against certain groups and that bias becomes overt towards these groups. They have to show their disapproval some way!

Then comes the Terrorists attacks and so what you end of getting is a lot of Lebanese kids and people being treated with disdain and being treated unfairly as punishment for what the Terrorists are doing. So we get this vicious cycle and everybody looses.

My children are Australians, of part Lebanese background, and they have been the victims of bias and victimization. You can read what has happened to my children here http://www.jolandachallita.typepad.com/ . I can’t say for sure whether it is just because they are of Lebanese background or whether it was because they are of Lebanese background, intellectually gifted and because I complained. No organisation will help my children or family because everybody says that they don’t get involved in “individual cases” or that it is outside their jurisdiction, or they don’t have enough funding.

We are seen as a group, treated as a group, disciplined as a group and punished as a group. That makes a lot of people angry because we are not a group, we are individuals and nobody likes to be blamed for what somebody else has done. That’s victimisation and from what I understand it’s against the law. We should be enforcing the law

What 'is' the "Lebanese Problem" ?

For Lebanese Maronite Christians it is THIS

http://www.geocities.com/damour1976/photo.html

If your heart does not go out to these people for what they had to flee from, then you have a heart of stone and are devoid of humanity.

Who were the PERPETRATORS of this genocide ? Why did they swarm down in their thousands crying "Allahu Akhbar" as they salivated at the thought of slaughtering Christians ?

Is it any wonder, that in the interests of their survival, attacks were made some years later, on the PLO military camps of Sabra and Shatila. Never..NEVER believe that they were 'refugee camps'.

I hope and pray, that NO-ONE will unfairly (i.e. without evidence) lump the Christian lebanese in with the particular group who appear (based on the evidence thus far) to be predominantly involved in the gang attacks in Sydney. Any nominally Christian Lebanese who IS with these gangs should get out NOW. ( I can't quite imagine that it is the Christian lebs who are burning the Churches and shooting up carols by candlelight)

Now I hear of busses and car loads of even ITALIANS going to Sydney.... but why ? what do the Italians have to do with burning of Churches ? Or perhaps they don't understand that it is not THEM who have been causing the problem in Sydney, and that any caught up in it are being mistaken for 'another' race ?

This problem is centered on just one group. They should be isolated and dealt with by the Law. The only reason the problem now exists is because they FAILED to do this in the past. Cowering and backing off from large numbers of extended families and associates when they should have called out the TROOPS! after declaring a state of Emergency.

I have not heard any 'community leaders' apology from the 'group' largely responsible for the gang attacks. But, i HAVE heard apologies from the 'Anglo' side for the outbreak of violence on ONE day, where it was clear that the crowd was HIJACKED by idiots

Tanveer,

Why is everybody analysing the problems in the Lebanese community? Has anyone thought about the fact that the gang problems in Sydney's South West is more of socio-economic issue and a pathetic failure of law and enforcement? It just happens to be that South West has a large Lebanese community.

Why didn't we have the same kind of cultural analysis about "White Australia" community when the Macquarie field riots broke out? Or analysis of the xenophobic attitudes in the 'White Australian" society displayed by Cronulla boofheads?

There are more decent Lebanese background citizens in this country than bad ones. Every city has its gang and crime problems. By marginalising communities on racial lines is adding fuel to the fire.

I am not shocked by the gang problems in Cronulla. This is a law and enforcement issue. I'm, however, gob smacked by:

1. pathetic Police response in Sydney
2. xenophobic people that reside as our neighbours
3. lack of grasp of what is racism by John Howard. If this is not racist, then what is?

I say all these in the utmost disappointment. And yes! I'm not from Lebanese background, nor a Muslim and I support the Liberals in general

Interesting quotes/points on SBS last night:

-(Member from Aus-Islamic forum): "We need to CREATE a new all-inclusive Australian identity."
-(Young Muslim man): "You need to take a step towards us… then, if we don’t take a step towards you, you can come to us with open arms."
-(Young Lebanese woman): Alienation and marginalisation furthered by “us vs. them” words in media, politicians saying criminals should "go back to their home country" when they were born in Australia, etc.
-It was argued "everybody's scared of us, think we’re all terrorists because of John Howard" [increased terror alerts, etc].
-White guy: “I’m sorry, but that wasn’t created by John Howard, but by Sep 11 and the Bali Bombings”.
-Superintendent: "In 36 years of cop work I've never seen anything like this... lets stop all this nonsense, my son-in-law is Lebanese, my wife Maltese, my grandfather was Jamaican for goodness sake. Lets all get along."

Sorry I can't remember who the white guy, young Muslim man or young Lebanese women represented (please forgive me for the un-PC way I represented them by refering solely to their sex and ethnicity/religion). What struck me though is that whereas the Caucasian people on the show were more than willing to decry the acts of Anglo Aussie zealots from last weekend, members of the Lebanese community instead said "you need to come to us, embrace us."

As an Australian with Italian heritage, who spent about half of her upbringing in the "multicultural" Melbourne and the other half in the somewhat more homogenous Newcastle, I have observed "Australian culture" from a lot of angles and have concluded that for the most part Australia is an open, diverse society which respects people of all colours [neo-nazi idiots excluded]. I believe if the Lebanese community would stop seeing itself as the Lebanese community, and start seeing itself as Australian (with Lebanese heritage), the other Aussies would welcome them with open arms. This doesn't mean Lebanese Muslim women need to suddenly start wearing bikinis to appease Australian cultural values or anything like that, it simply means that Anglos and Mediterraneans together need to stop judging people by their ethnicity, but instead primarily see all people who were born in/have chosen to move to Australia as Australian.

Also, I believe that celebrating early Australian works of art, music, culture, etc. and exploring Australian history, politics, cultural values, etc. at schools is important for ALL of our Aussie kids to foster an Australian identity from an early age.

One salient issue that has been mostly overlooked is that the perpetrators of violence on either side have been mostly men. Much as don't like saying it but let's look at the bleeding obvious. Muslim women weren't in the fray. Women on the other side, the few of them, were vastly outnumbered by their male counterparts. Indeed, some women have objected to their male would-be protectors who keep referring to "our women" all the time. It's this sense of male entitlement to women, public space and alcohol which is a major cause of violence. Add religious extremism (which favours males) into the mix and violence is inevitable.

Now I know not all men are rioters and there were men such as cops and ambos trying to do something about the violence. But have you seen whole suburbs live in fear of female violence? This issue can't be ignored because it will re-emerged so long as it is not addressed.

lots of young Lebs need a good kick in the bum. So do plenty of Aussies.

I think we are looking into it too much. if it were crips vs bloods, we would be trying to break the issue down also.

the end of the day, young men have themos, they have a natural aggressive urge especially prevalent in adolescance that dates back to when we were living in caves.

We have warring groups of youths who are confused and try to develop an identity from these groups or gangs, and are very defensive and protective of them.

The problem is themos. all the do gooders and feminists who discourage the appropriate releases of this anger and agression are the reason many of these boys are so needy to respond in an agressive manner.

Why are people like Hasim El Masri & Nasser Hussein so controlled and such respected members of their community? they have had an avenue to release this themos.

Young Lebs have a particular amount of issues for many reasons, and without an avenue to release themos, the frustrations they experience often results in negative social experiences and violence.

Read father daves articles for further info, but not releasing themos is like building a dam wall inside a young man, and when it bursts they do not know self control, they do not know their physical abilities and they make life changing snap reactions.

The tools are their to fix this, but will they be used?

I really believe that we need to take away the power that the word “racist” and "racism" gives to certain ethnic groups.

Discrimination based on malice and spite should be against the law regardless of who you are or where you are from. We shouldnt' discriminate.

White Australians don’t have the power of using the race card to get their way and that makes them feel frustrated and as though they don’t have equal rights and protection.

Did you know that it is against the Law to discriminate because of race, but it’s NOT against the law to discriminate against someone if they are seen as gifted or superior?

How is that fair

sfx

I agree with you on most points. It seems that police practices over some years have been completely inadequate, and the Cronulla episode is largely a result of that. Yes, the mob was openly trying to ostracise and hurt people specifically from Lebanon and their offspring, portraying them as everything undesirable in humans. I try to avoid the word “racist” whenever I can, but in this case I must apply it.

The behaviour, words and motives of that mob -- and the many others who have jumped on the bandwagon since the riot -- must be analysed carefully and publicly analysed. What is a “white” person? What is “white purity”? What is “race” as applied to humans? What does “un-Australian” mean? Is there such a thing as “the Australian way”, or “Australian identity”?

I also agree that John Howard’s response was wrong. In fact I think he’s just continuing the sort of stance he has taken since the 1970s on these matters. His public utterances are so often equivocal, and often his silence tells more than his utterances. The same applies to his government in general, in my opinion.

But I disagree with you about analysing the problems in the Lebanese community. We must do this to deal with the causes of the thuggish behaviour of some of their young men, which is every bit as unacceptable as the behaviour of the rioting thousands at Cronulla. Tanveer’s article should go a long way to starting that process of investigation.

There was another dimension to the violence. The provocation and prior events to incite and antagonize the community at the beach were leading factors. But you can't ignore the racist element. It is there and ever-present.

Oil and water will not mix !!
What we older Australians allowed to happen some 30yrs.ago is a national disgrace. At the time the then Governments pandered to the thinking of "do-gooders" that Australia should welcome all comers to our shores. That is fine,but,what some older people thought at the time was that it was dangerous to allow ethnics to bring with them their 'cultures'and to congregate in groups, mainly in our larger cities, and make no attempt to assimilate into the broader Australian population. The result of that was we then proudly trumpeted that we were a multi-cultural nation. What a mistake!! We should be a mono-cultural nation with,if you like,a multi-lingual minority population, all being born in Australia should embrace our national language,which is English,apart from that their foreign 'cultures'should be left behind them. If they do not wish to do that then let them return to the lands of birth. Consider,if you wil,the situation where some of the ethnic's homelands attack us. Could you rely on those in our midst,who reject our Australian way of life, and expect them to fight on our side. How you solve the problem is beyond me,but, I hope that common sense will prevail and that the violence we are now seeing in Sydney will not manifest itself in other areas. Alas,I fear that this is only the beginning !! God help us if we become a nation where law and order are enforced only by the presence of armed police in our streets!
Maybe that is the price that we must pay for allowing the problem to start in the first place. I would be surprised if our grandchildren laude us for being so bloody stupid.

I said it before I say it again. This is not a “racial” BUT a “religious” issue. Like it or not.

The majority of Australians are racist. Let's not downplay that fact. Anything different to 'our ways' is foreign therefore un-Australian and odd at best.

But when it comes to this visible foreign phenomenon called islam, it goes beyond racism. Why?

Let me attempt to explain. I urge you to research it and prove me wrong.

1. For starters the religon is based on the Arabic language. The koran cannot be read satisfactorily in another language. Prayers can only be recited in Arabic (or allah won't understand).

2. The attitude of this group towards 'skips' is not simple racism but ‘denigration’. To them anything and anyone not-islamic is scum and worthless.

3. The religion of islam is about the restoration of humanity's debauchery back to allah's way; using any deception known to man in the process.

4. Australia, Europe, Asia, the Americas – actually the whole earth belongs to them by religious right. Everything belongs to allah therefore no government or people outside islam can claim ownership of any country.

5. It is a only a matter of time when all the earth will be their’s (allah willing)under one centralised islamic goverment.

So back to my initial quote: ‘religion not racism’ – please re-consider, I am begging you.

Why will they bother learning our ways, our language, when our entire system is worthless to them and will become obsolete anyway?

This is what is being taught to them and instilled deep into there subconscious. Is it any wonder we see the display of arrogance and lack of respect towards us?

Coach

You can “say it again” as often as you like: mere assertion, however loud, doesn’t make it so. If you’ve picked up your ideas about Muslim beliefs and attitudes from talking with Muslim people, all I can say is you’ve not found the mainstream of their community. Many Muslim live around me, and some are my good friends. They certainly accept the right of other religious groups and people with other ways of life to co-exist with them. I find none of the denigration and drive for power you keep talking about. On an inter-faith level, my church has had a number of very friendly open seminars with representatives of the Muslim community and other religions; this helped all towards easier relationships and deeper understanding of the similarities and differences between us.

And I also take issue with your generalisation that the “majority of Australians are racist”. The word “racist” is ambiguous and carries too much baggage to be very useful in a meaningful discussion. But here again I think you must get around in unrepresentative sectors of the population to form that opinion.

All those who choose to display pro-Nazi slogans, emblems, for example swastikas (hindus excepted, of course) should be arrested and charged on the spot, like they are here in Germany. It's a total insult to every digger who lost their lives fighting against them over England and the channel, France, North Africa (Tobruk), Middle East, Indian Ocean and anywhere else Australians fought against the Nazis. It is a total insult to the millions of people of every race who were tortured and killed by the Nazi party. It was a totally evil organisation, 'evil' in the sense that most people understand the word regardless of their religion or non-religion.

Here in Germany, in the country where the Nazi Party was born, it is banned. It's banned. Why is not banned in Australia or the US? How DARE anyone wear a Nazi Party emblem and call themselves Australian at the same time. Down at 'Nulla they did just that. Total bastards. Plus they rooted up an important peaceful protest. Arrest them. And I have just the right punishment for them: 24 hours in the township of Wilcannia in western New South Wales, with nothing but their swastika fancy dress costumes.

"They quickly had large families. The fathers were often absent while they worked multiple, unskilled jobs trying to provide. The mothers lacked the extended family support they may have had at home. Parenting was often focused on the daughters, for in the world the mothers knew women needed more discipline and attention if opportunity and marriage was to beckon. A relatively absent father in many families compounded the problems."

This is not true, I grew up around lots of these families, both the mother and the father were on the pension in most cases, as were all the adult children. They also do listen to their parents, as it is their parents who tell them that Aussies are trash and should be disrespected, it is their parents who should feel sick that their own selfish racism got in the way of their children having a decent life. Due to their instilled hatred, sadly now all their kids are in jail, but more sadly, the rest of Australia has to bear the real brunt of it and get called "racist" at the same time. What a disaster.

"But there are other Muslim youth from many different countries living in Sydney. Other Arab Australians from Egypt, Jordan, Iran or Syria do not have the same problem. If you meet them, they will be quick to point that their community’s migration was from a more skilled base. They had smaller families, focused on their children’s education and integrated more easily."

This is only true in that they are not here in the same numbers and from the same classes. Saying it is particularly a Lebanese problem is rediculous since they have the exact problem all over Europe, where in Germany they have Turks, in England they have Pakis, in France they have Algerians. So, while I think it is adult of Tanveer Ahmed to acknowledge a problem, he is one in a million for that, he is wrong to say that it is a Lebanese problem; it is a middle-eastern muslim problem. Quite simple.

Excuse me Crabby,

on behalf of Benjamin I must make an observation: you probably only agree with Ben because this time you can't call Tanveer a racist, since he is muslim himself. All this shows is that you yourself are racist, since you can't see an issue for what it is, you get trapped by colour and race. How sad.

Remember what Pauline Hanson and Graham Campbell said about ATSIC and being too lenient on drunkard indiginous parents? Well I bet anything you were one of those bigots who could care less about actual indiginous people or their health, all you care about is appearing as though you don't insult anyone, even if it is for the greater good, like is now obvious with the likes of Noel Pearson, finally saying the same things as what P.H. said nine years ago.

I notice too that a lot of media and the left support Noel, why ? Because he is Aboriginal, and if he is saying it it's OK so you don't have to get that "funny gut feeling". What cowards.
I wonder, what do you think? Is Noel a racist like P.H. was?

Mathew, you had forgotten the Massive Insurance fraud, they participated in the: well they still are since the first one arrived.
How they set them selves up for vehicle accidents and injuries, and Police –Governments and Insurance companies became complicit: although they were old tactics-non the less some choose to forget about it, another contributing factor in societies decline. So much for the White mans sophistication of civilization, simple psychological tactics and subliminal language and conditioning of guilt, and threats and reprisals- where in fact the perpetrators of such crimes are writing the statutes and Laws; Funny I said that: I recall reading that familiar line in some Cult documentation of 1400 years ago, can you help me remember what that Looters Cult was? What better way to exonerate oneself from barbaric crimes and an open warrant for the perpetrators by justifying it as Gods will? You can Loot everything and do what your ego commands. What a familiar coincidence that is.

Please read the open letter to all Ministers of the NSW Parliament by following this link:

http://cracker.com.au/viewthread.aspx?categoryid=11121&threadid=94369

If you agree with this letter, forward a copy to all of your friends family and any or all Ministers in the State and Federal Parliament.

Thanks.

I know why the guilty get away with wrong-doing - People are worried about being accused of "VICTIMISATION"…..

Let me give you an example. One morning last year a radio van was parked outside a High School giving away free drinks etc. There was a Primary School on the other side of this main road. Some kids from the Primary school ran across this major road in order to receive freebies. Lucky no child was killed.

At the assembly that morning the Principal was furious. He yelled at the all the kids about having gone across the road and told them how disappointed he was. It was really unfair to those that had made the right choice and didn’t go across.

My children complained to me and I spoke to the Principal and enquired as to whether a fairer method would have been to publicly identify those individuals that did the wrong thing, make an example of them, and punish them for their actions instead of blaming the whole school. I was told by the Principal that they couldn’t’ do that because they could then be accused of victimization. I was in shock. There didn't seem to be any concern about the victimization of the innocent children, who were blamed and discredited for something that they didn’t do. Why don’t they have rights?

The message was clear- it didn’t pay to have been good

Jolanda, kind of agree with you but am uncertain which direction your are coming from.

If for example 20 of the 100 kids from grade three crossed the road then some here would have us believe all grade 3 kids were bad and others would have us believe the issue was the fault of everybody except those grade 3 kids.

Some might suggest that the other kids who spent every spare moment calling any grade 3 kid they could find "stinky pants" and "scaredy cat" (etc) had something to do with the behaviour of the kids who crossed the road and a few might suggest that the parents who did not teach their kids to follow the rules played a part.

I'd strongly prefer society to work out what specific issues are leading to the problems, there are plenty though who continually seek to use any attempts to do so to further their own agenda's
- relentless muslim bashing - mostly by christians
- a small group who want a move to good old fashioned white racial purity. I've been told I'll be deported for opposing that, not sure what will happen to BD for marrying an asian and the "lefties" are in real big trouble.
- a group who seek to use all of this against the federal government.
- some migrant groups, spokespersons who are much more interested in the welfare of their group than in the welfare of this country.
- some political extremist's who believe that anglo capitalist right wingers are the cause of all the worlds problems and that minority groups are always the victim.
- some political extremist's who believe that socialist homo PC left wingers are the cause of all the worlds problems etc.

Our mission is to try and tread our way through that maze and come up with solutions that work.

R0bert

What a load of poncy, snobbish tosh this man talks.

Populations everywhere have their underclass, not just the Lebanese. Populations everywhere also have their upper-class snobs and Ahmed is clearly one of those, taking advantage of the latest moral panic to push his silver spoon barrow

ROB
well observed.

"Finding our way" is a very simple task.

Even handed and robust policing !

It all starts with upholding the rule of Law... for ALL segments of the community.

Its not rocket science.

To calm the anger of many Australians, they need to take to heart the sense of frustration over the longstatnding and well documented 'cowering' of the police to a number of ethnic related gang activities. (the Police have not 'cowered' to my knowledge to any other gang activity, perhaps Cabramatta until it was sorted out after it was exposed)

At first it was 'softly softly' on Cabramatta drug crime, then, and now, it is 'softly softly' on 23 car loads of baseball wielding ethnics at a Parramatta fast food outlet intimidating patrons.

I've just rang Parramatta police about this, and they are 'blaming the media' and 'We cannot disclose any information about who or why people are arrested'

and for those who say "The race is NEVER reported if the perpetrator is 'white' or anglo, here is a rebuttal

"The offender is described as being of white appearance, aged in his early 20s, 165-175cm tall with medium build, short light brown hair and clean-shaven. He was last seen wearing long dark pants and a shirt." http://www.slr.net.au/id17.htm

And... an apology is long overdue from the Lebanese Community leaders for the 'invasion' of Cronulla and the vicious racist attack on property and people last weekend.

A generally insightful article, however, comparing the words "nigger" and "paki" with "leb" is a bit hard to swallow. Neither of the former strutted around in gangs preying on races or religious groupings outside their mileau. As a former resident of SW Sydney, I saw many examples of poor behaviour amongst Lebanese- including, before the great masses of Muslims arrived, a casual sexual and verbal assault on a former partner- by a Maronite Christian. So the bad behaviour isn't all "Islamic"- there's an element of it amongst the Christians. Or is it a cultural thing amongst Arabs? Or have Islamic attitudes to women rubbed off on Middle Eastern non-Muslims?

Whatever the origins of the "leb's" bad behaviour, a lot of work is needed to curb the gangs' activities. No other immigrant group has caused the problems these people have. No other immigrant group comes close, in fact, and that comes from a former resident who grew up in poor immigrant suburbs. The rowdy backlash to years of Lebanese misbehaviour was deplorable, but understandable. The thing about Lebanese which has struck me has been their cowardliness- large groups of well-built young men preying on old people, young men walking (or even driving) alone, 'normally" clad women, and even small girls! (the latter apparently having to "cover up" at beaches for fear of being called "little whores").

This has gone way too far, and massive efforts are need to curb the activities of these young men- and we have to think to the future, too. What sort of children are these misfits going to produce?

These have been some results of the "race riots".
Beaches being policed and declared out of bounds.
Christmas Carols cancelled.
The Australian flag taken down from a police station.
Christian churches fire bombed and shots fired.

Who ever is winning this disgusting war, it is not Australians.

Robert here is the problem. The actual blame should have been put on the school because a playground of children should have been properly supervised! The children responsible should also have been identified and punished as they made a bad choice, they should have known better.

The school didn’t want to deal with the issue of “responsibility” so they blamed all the kids as a group so as to take the attention away from their failures!. This is what is happening in Society!

The playground scenario is played out in society every day. Discipline and Law and Order is failing the people, bullies are in control. The State Labor Government doesn’t want to blame itself for the failures so they blame lack of funding, and they blame Racism. They turn it on the people and certain groups in particular are targeted as a result.

The system doesn’t want to be seen as blaming or targeting the Muslim community as they fear being accused of victimization/racism and they worry that it will inflame the situation (and votes) so they tend to go easy on the Muslims. The Aussies feel that the Muslims have more protection and more rights than they do as a result.

Many Australians fear a take over, they worry because Muslims tend to have a lot of children regardless of whether they can afford them or not, and many of them are being brought up on people’s taxes. They worry because there does appear to be alot of aggression and violence and a attitude problem present in our youth and in particular those of Middle eastern background.

The total lack of Law and Order has created Racism and created justifiable reasons for Australians to be concerned for the future of Australia as a safe place to live and bring up children.

Forget our beachs to find the start of this problem Get to Lakemba.
The thread started with truth and most follow it ,some have zero idea of the problem but throw useless thoughts at it.
Once while eating at a country truck stop I saw a car loaded with young thugs reduce the female staff to crying with threats of rape and worse.
None came from our beachs, none failed to use the word Australian as an insult.
How do we blame me and you for that?
The problem can be fixed without bloodshed but it can never be done without truth.

Great post Jolanda. What the "school" failed to do was address the fact that the "school "population was changing as a whole bunch of Lebanese muslims enrolled. A school has to prepare and adapt its policies for that kind of a drastic change in its clientele.

Drunken, tribal violence in Sydney is as old as the city itself. A hundred years ago, it was the "push" gangs of "larrikins", such as the Glebe Push, the Bantry Bay Devils, the Stars, the Golden Dragons, the Rocks Push, the Livers, the Forty Thieves, and so on. There were also many "razor gangs". In the 1960s there were frequent violent confrontations between the "bodgies" (equivalent to "rockers" in the UK) and "surfies". I believe that Cronulla was a venue for such riots ... Can't fit it all in so the rest of my post is here http://wilsonsalmanac.blogspot.com/2005/12/cronulla-some-random-thoughts.html

GREATER PUBLIC AWARENESS + ZERO TOLERANCE FOR SEX OFFENDERS

http://www.mako.org.au/list.html

The majority of sex offenders in Australia have been of Anglo-Saxon descent. Some of these people have murdered and raped children and have served there sentences. They are now at large in our fair city and all we can do is point the finger at the Lebanese community

f_a_r

that may be because Anglos make up around 90 % of population?

Jolanda, I agree with most of what you've said in the recent post. I think though that it is worth considering the impact those those who try and "play" issues to suit their own purposes have on honesty. If a small percentage of the lebanese population has significant issues and some use it as an excuse to villify all people of middle eastern origins or all muslims that is a strong motivator for some to try and brush the issues under the carpet. I disagree with that choice but I can understand it. Parts of PC are spurred on by the sheer unwillingness of others to deal fairly with the realities of life.

I certainly am opposed to the high level of taxpayer funded child raising (as a single dad I find it very offensive that my ex gets more money if she grabs more residency). I'm not convinced that those unable to support themselves and their dependants are the ones we should be providing the largest motivation to have kids to.

I'd agree with the view that a playground of children should have been properly supervised. That is maybe a place for the metaphore to get strained, most adults don't want to be supervised as strongly as we expect children at school to be supervised. From what I have read on the issue the gangs should have been dealth with a long time ago but beyond that! Many of the posters most outraged at the gangs are ones who also were very upset when christian pastors were prosecuted for saying things deemed harmfull - they didn't want that level of supervision in their lives. Our society only functions reasonably when most of us operate within the law most of the time without close supervision, these gangs have failed to respect that as have those who incite violence, hatred and misplaced suspicion.

R0bert

Here are the current Acts and Regulations (Legislation) in force (official NSW Parliamentary Counsel's Office website):

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/scanact/inforce/NONE/0

David, you may find the Crimes Act you are looking for under 'C', in the first section 'Acts in force'.

Also for the benefit of users of this forum, in addition to the Legislation index above, here is the official and comprehensive list of links to the Attorney Gerneral's Department:

http://www.australia.gov.au/portfolios#attorneygenerals

It has the following title:

'The Attorney-General's Department serves the people of Australia by providing essential expert support to the Government in the maintenance and improvement of Australia's system of law and justice.'

I would encourage everyone to familiarise themselves with the laws that they feel are relevant to them. The more people that know about the laws that govern them, the more stable and progressive our society will be. I believe that to be absolutely true.

I wish everyone who is interested in the laws that govern them good luck with their research.

In addition, below is a link to the 'Media Alliance Code of Ethics' (official website). Most media journalists in Australia are bound to this code, via their membership of the Australian Journalists Association.

http://www.alliance.org.au/content/view/17/60/

Also of interest, an extract from the Canterbury City Council's Community Protection Committee minutes from Febuary 2005:

'Canterbury Drug Action Team

Ms Field advised the Premier's Department annual funding contribution will be $1,500. With such limited funding not many options exist for new projects and past projects cannot be re-run. Current projects that will be continued include youth drug prevention project (gym/nutrition workshops at Riverwood Community Centre), Fatiha 2005 (drug prevention forum for Arabic speaking/background residents) and the methadone program research project's report is currently being finalised. The Premier's Department resource of taking minutes of Team meetings may also be discontinued. Correspondence on behalf of the Committee will be forwarded to the Premier's Department expressing disappointment at the level of funding provided to the Team.'

(original source: http://www.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/council/comm_prot/2005/comp0702.htm)

And finally, the NSW Premier's Department:

http://www.premiers.nsw.gov.au/premiers/contactus.asp

Almanac

It's true what you say about tribal violence in Sydney but I believe that the recent violence is somewhat different. I grew up in Cronulla and was fully aware of the gangs in the area, the westies and surfies.

I was hassled about three times in 25 years to 1990, no violence, it seemed the gangs kept it among themselves and largely left others alone. Left for Europe in `90 returned in `96 to a much different story. Mid East gangs harrassing all and sundry.

A few years back some local women were setting up for the RSL xmas party in Gunnamatta Park. A group of mossies, twenty and thirtysomethings, men with families arrived and said 'this is our place, get out' They refused and were physically assaulted, that's 'mature' mid-east men beating up fifty and sixty year old women in front of their own kids, great role models boys!

It was reported in the local paper, the Leader but no where else I could find.

There was also a shooting, a carload of mid-east youths opened fire on a group of locals hanging out in Munro Park, also only reported in the local paper.

It's been going on for years, I don't condone what the mob did that Sunday but the locals are sick of it. If the law doesn't do anything about then it then the mob takes the initiative.

Thanks for acknowledging the problem Tanveer, you're not completely right, young mossie men of diffent origins do much the same all over Europe and their parents are often shocking role models.

Tanveer Ahmed is a great spin doctor. His motive is to downplay the self evident cultural divide between Australians and “Muslims”.

Notice how he subtly points the finger of blame for the Cronulla riot at Australians by calling us “drunken louts”? No direct mention is made of “Muslim” behaviour at Cronulla at all, other than to say that there a “Lebanese” problem, which is not related to Arabs in general, or Muslims in particular.

He then goes on to find excuses for this “Lebanese problem.”

But it is funny how other ethnic groups within Australian society have experienced exactly the same conditions that “Lebanese” people have experienced, but those ethnic groups are not known for their disgusting behaviour. People born in Japan are so law abiding that they do not even rate on the Australian Bureau of Statistics “Prisoners in Australia.”

Mr Tanveer pretends that the serious problems of violent criminal behaviour in Sydney is primarily a “Lebanese” problem. But most people in Sydney would dispute that. While “Lebanese” appear to be the worst of the lot, “Arab” and “Muslim” behaviour has been less than exemplary. An example of how crime prone Muslims in general are is the situation in France. According to ex Sgt. Tim Priest, 75,000 of the 150,000 inmates of French jails are Muslims. Most of these Muslims are Algerians and Moroccans who make up only 7% of the French population.

If 7% are responsible for 50% of the crime, then Muslims are seven times more prone to serious criminal behaviour than the rest of the people who make up the population of France. The Frogs had better thank God that they did not import many Lebanese.

The question then begs. Why should Australia continue to import such crime prone people who are notorious for their behaviour and who are now causing serious social unrest?

Redneck ,I think you are being a little harsh on Tanveer.If Tanveer is indeed Muslim,then this is a monumental step,since they finally are admitting that there is a problem.Basically we just brought out too many people of low intelligence and poor education that came together in enclaves,that now want to resume their tribal and religious battles here.We can't send them back because most were born here.

Don't forget there are many successful people of Lebanese origin who are good citizens, feel equally repulsed and aren't religious fanatics.

When the Muslim community as a whole admit they have a problem,perhaps we can make some headway.The religious bit is the real worry,since common sense and logic seems to have little bearing on their actions.

I don't know what the solutions are,but have it on good authority that our gaols are going to be full and a lot more will be built.

It means you and I will be paying far more tax.If we can keep the hand wringers and the PC brigade out of negiotations,perhaps real headway can be made.

Apparently the French leaders are still in denial and are waiting to see how it all pans out.Probably a gradual process of devolution through more compromises.They are probably better off confronting the problem head on now,while it can be managed with present numbers,rather than their poor grandchildren suffer invasion by chaos and stealth.

All we can do is to encourage the positive signs coming from the Muslim community and be honest about what goes against our values, standards and implement the law.The struggle has just begun.

Robert. It’s true that people don’t like being supervised, but it’s a well known fact that if you don’t get it right when children are young, then it is very difficult to change when they grow up, especially teenagers when all the attitude and testosterone is abundant.

Our youth are not learning about respect. How can our young people learn to respect themselves or others when they are exposed to so much bullying, violence, terrorism, hatred, war, alcohol, drugs and sex and worse still when nobody cares enough to take action to change things and to protect the children? Where is the respect in that?

Parents play a major role here but many parents are caught up in the problems and issues and for many it consumes them so they don’t have time or the energy to watch their children and many feel bad for their children so they tend to spoil them and not discipline them so the children just take it all in and they learn.

Schools also do not discipline children, they have the same softly softly no blame approach to problems that our Government uses and that many parents now use. This gives power and protection to those that do the wrong thing.

Our Leaders are not good role models for our children and our system is not providing a safe, supportive and caring learning environment and the result is what we are seeing today.

Our children learn by example. Look at our current Labor Government, it appears that those that do the wrong thing – GET PROMOTED!. Adults in power take no responsibility for their actions or lack of action. Children are not stupid, they can see what you need to do to get ahead and many of them have learned that “It doesn’t pay to be good”.

The Justice system wraps itself around the guilty to protect them – the victims are usually ostrasized and discredited! We have to change the balance of power. It shouldn’t matter where you come from or who you are we should all have equal PROTECTION from the law.

Tanveer is Muslim and quite right in his views, redneck you must understand no need exists for extremist action or thoughts.
Truth will in time highlight the simple truth, some, far too many, from this group use the word Australian as an insult.
I will wait till the outcry dies down and the simple truth is exposed some are clearly never going to change and Australia has no need of them, racist? come for the most part raceism is now a tool of minoritys as are lies,we however should continue to say sorry for a few and listen to the silence from the other side.

Let me start by introducing myself. I am a Lebanese christian from Lebanon I've been studying in Sydney for 2 years now...to be honest I love it...city-living is great and the multicultural atmosphere is exciting. However recently I can help but wonder how people like Tanveer can outright accuse so specifically a group of people for certain crimes or anti-social behaviour. My friend for you to say that it is not a muslim thing you are 100% wrong. The issue is mainly a muslim thing, because it is a lot harder for a muslim to assimilate into western culture than a christian middle-easternIn regards to you sayign that australia does not encounter problems with other arabs: the reasons for that are far and in between.
1. None of those countries endured what Lebanon endured in its 15 year civil war (between muslims and christians) which was ignited by palestinians and other arabs and then pro-longed by Syria.
2. Most them assimilate into the Lebanese-australian community and integrate themselves among other muslims.
3. They do not endure the same profiling as lebanese because they are not in the same numbers as lebanese.

Another post said that no other migrant group had anywhere near this much problems. Well i don't think you've heard of the MAFIA in melbourne or the Triads in sydney I think they are a lot more worrying than the 16 year olds roaming around darling harbor. If only one of you would go to lebanon and have a look how we live even aftero ur cities were destroyed, you will know what Lebanese truly are. The problems of the lebanese-australian communities are local problems, caused by the local society, not lebanon or our culture. Stand up and take responsibility for your ignorance, for allowing the media to control how u live and how u think ( the media is posting those text messages, and then they condemn them) , I used to think about settling here, now I worry that none of us enjoy the freedom we thought existed in Australia.

I lived in Sydney most of my life, and never saw carloads of Triads or Italians out looking for trouble, and never had known contact with either group despite living in what was then an Italian suburb. Lebanese are an entirely different kettle of fish- one doesn't have to go far to find a group of them- there are groups of 12-20 of them roaming most western suburbs shopping centres. A group of Chinese that big would most likely be a bespectacled group of students. A group of Italians that big, in picnic area, would shout out greetings and offer one a glass of wine. Family groups of Lebanese will take over picnic areas and if not force out others, at least make it unpleasant for them.

The problem is largely, but not entirely, a Muslim one. Arab men frankly seem to have a bad attitude towards women.

Dear Complexity

We need your help to clarify some important issues in this matter.

I feel sad because what I noticed last weekend, was that the centre of activity and 'revenge' revolved around the Lakemba Mosque, then car loads of 'Lebs' went to attack. I am only guessing here, but I can't imagine hundres of Leb Christians gathering to protect the Mosque, nor can I imagine them then going to trash Cronulla. I would truly appreciate any feedback you might have about this observation.
If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

Could you fill us in, on that event ? (Many Christian lebs present?)
and is there a feeling among your group which sees 'ethnic' solidarity as more important than religious difference ?

I would also love to know, if your group are 'culturally predisposed' to feeling uncomfortable when at the beach surrounded by bikini clad girls etc.. as I know the Muslims are. Do Leb Christian women bathe fully clothed ? and do you have segregated bathing ?

We are quite ignorant of 'in community' feedback on these issues, so please help us.

For your re-assurance, speaking as an Anglo/Scot myself, all we ask is for our culture to be respected, not to be bullied and not to be 'gang attacked'. Our resentment of these things would apply to any group, be they Leb or Asian or whoever. It would equally apply to sub groups among ourselves "Irish" "Scottish" etc. The connection at the moment between Lebanese ethnicity and gang crime is purely coincidental.

Its as simple as understanding that if a group of Aussies went to Beruit and claimed a chunk of beach, locals would be as outraged as us.

But the evidence weighs heavily towards the predominant gang activity being on the Muslim end of the Lebanese community and spiralled up since 94 (I'm happy to be shown reports which will show otherwise, but I've not seen any)

I know what you suffered at Damour and our hearts go out to you.

Thank you Dr Ahmed for your information - food for thought.

Years ago , Australia was a peaceful country / communities were cohesive, but sadly due to the politicians and their never - ending short term measures, in this case the “solution” of migration have upset that and shall continue to do so, no matter how many police are employed .

Why such ignorance on a matter that has been shown time and time again in many other countries over many, many years to be a never-ending problem, a matter that is ignored by bureaucrats and politicians who blame anything but the root cause and do little until forced to do so and then ineffectively.

The Australian intelligence is insulted when we are told by pathetic radio and television advertising that we are multicultural and its all such a wonderful success.

See Andrew Bartletts blog where I have placed a 3776 word comment on this problem in our community. In 350 words one cannot begin to elucidate knowledge, experience or my thoughts and others on this most divisive problem.

Part of the problem is the culture of Islam where men and women do not socialise outside of the immediate family. This results in boys hanging out with boys only. All that testosterone running about in intimidating groups of young men. (The harassment of western female tourists travelling in countries like Egypt is well known). Multiply those macho boy gangs by a hundred in a concentrated geographical area trying to find their identity in a Western christian based culture.

Every migrant group will struggle to fit into a new culture but nothing can ever be as jarring as fundamentalist Islam alongside Western beach style hedonism. The muslims demand to be able to practice their Islamic values in public (ie. a place at the beach for their women to bathe in their burkas), while the anglo aussies refuse to compromise and demand that they stop harassing bikini clad women and assimilate with the dominant culture. One solution would be to officially mark out a muslim only area on Cronulla beach or perhaps ban the bikinis.

If we accept muslims into our country in the first place, we have to make some compromises especially in places where they make up a large part of the local population. If we don't, they'll simply take matters into their own hands. The non muslim/anglo aussies of Cronulla who don't want to compromise are backed into a corner. As the muslim population of Lakemba and Cronulla grows, one day it will be impossible to go to the beach without wearing a burka. That is the reality of multiculturalism and even if it is hard, we have to swallow it whether we like it or not.

Maybe not, Pachelbel, but I'm going to try right now because my patience has worn paper-thin.

In every single major paper in Australia and the world today the eastern suburbs lock down has been reported. Cars searched. Businesses suffering. WHY aren't those 2000 police locking down the suburbs in the vicinty of Lakemba and Punchbowl? WHY isn't every car being searched going in and out of that area? WHY are there poxy protests all over the place with whiny squeals of 'No Rascism', while there is not a single protest calling for 'NO GANGS'. Or 'NO ORGANISED CRIME'?. While the beaches are locked down these gangs are simply marauding the rest of Sydney. Most people just seem to lap up all the bull crap that the media feeds them. TELL me which road is safer to walk down usually - Telopea Street or the main drag down at Cronulla?. And I address that question to people of all races.

Sydney is an awesome place for people from different races. On any given day of the week the city teems and babbles with the sound of hundreds of different languages, without any race-related incidents. The vastly overwhelming proportion of violence in the city of Sydney, indeed in all of Australia, is related to gangs and drugs. In Sydney the most lethal and dangerous gangs at this time are of Lebanese descent. FACT. The people focusing on racism at this time are absolutely taking the piss. I can say to anyone any day of the week 'Don't be a racist'. But that doesn't stop so-called 'Telopea Street Boys' and 5T from filling our city to brim with heroin and cocaine, and stabbing and bashing people every single weekend. Yes every weekend.

At the same time, I would say to anyone wanting to exact revenge on the gangs - DON'T - or you might find yourself lying in Bankstown Hospital getting stitched up by a Muslim doctor like Ahmed here. (And by that I mean there's a lot of Muslim people holding up our society).

What is the problem with the Lebanese?

Let me first introduce myself, my name is Muhammed and I born in Lebanon in 1965. I left Lebanon in 1984 and have lived in Europe for the last 20 years. My father is Palestinian and my mother is Lebanese.

Let us start with a historical background. Lebanon is created by the French colony in 1921. The name “Lebanon” is a name for a mountain and actually that area of land had always been under Syrian or Palestine. It is a collection of different groups, clans and sects. It contains all kinds of religions and nationalities, Moslems (Sunni, Shiite,.), Christians(Maronite, Catholic, ..), Druze, Arabs and non-Arabs( Armenian, Kurds, ..).

Lebanese like very much to immigrate in order to improve their standard of life and they rarely return back. There is no problem about that, but the problem is by the way and criteria that they measure their success. If a Lebanese returns back, he/she will be evaluated by the amount of money that he/she collected regardless for the source of the money. A man with one million $ from selling drugs is 10 times better than a hard worker one with hundred thousands $.

Lebanese always accuse others for their internal problems and conflicts. They hate Syrians, Palestinians, other Arabs and each other. They demand their rights in the countries they immigrate to. However, they deprive 300,000 Palestinian refugees from their basic civil rights. Palestinians in Lebanon have no right to work or even to buy an apartment and they treated with no respect. You can refer to the thousands of reports from human rights organization about the discrimination of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

I am confident that the root cause of the Lebanese problem in Australia, Canada or Switzerland has nothing to do with religion or race rather than a mentality problem. Lebanese have to respect and treat others well before they ask others to be treated well. Lebanese should have the courage to recognize their problems and try to solve them before it getting really bad.

muhummad

It's not about "dialogue between communities", our "communities" understand each other perfectly well. That's the problem.
http://romeomikes.blogspot.com/

Thanks muhammed,

For that insight into what is most probably one of the main roots of the problem. All immigrants, regardless of origin, need to consider the culture of the country to which they choose to immigrate.

I believe that the major difference too, between immigrants after WWII and more recent arrivals is that the prior had to 'pay their dues' and as such, felt some send of ownership. The latter have arrived and been hand fed all sorts of welfare and subsequently, never had to contribute anything, therefore feeling no sense of belonging or ownership to this great country.

Maybe we should bring back public works enterprises (such as the Snowy Mountain Scheme) for non-skilled immigrants whereby they can contribute and earn a wage and a sense of belonging, as opposed to simply handing them all a welfare cheque.

BOAZ_DAVID,

Its good you choose to widen your knowledge on the cultural background, the beaches of Lebanon have long been known to be filled with gorgeous bikini wearing babes!! It is definitely a Muslim thing to wear the Hijab because it is part of their religion and ultimately the choice of the girl that is wearing it.

I don’t know what was the nature of the lakemba gathering since I live in the city so I wont comment on that. I agree you will find groups of Lebanese Australian youths intimidating others and being obnoxious and rude, the problem? Leniency!! Need stricter laws!

To Viking, that’s because the triads and MAFIA are not 16 yr old mis-fits, they're fat old men smuggling heroin into Australia...I think I prefer the 16 yr olds and their "fully sick" sound systems.

Muhammed! Whatever you do, don’t compare the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon to any immigrants in any country especially Lebanese, Palestinians are the reason Lebanese had to emigrate! The 300,000 refugees you forgot to mention are more armed than our legitimate army, they regularly steal cars from the city and take them back to their camps which lack any laws! The war in Lebanon started because we were nice enough to let the Palestinians in, then having them pulls guns on us, setting up military checkpoints and slaughtering women and children.

I am sorry for having to say this, since it is not relevant to the underlying discussion. If u left Lebanon in 1984 what do you know about Lebanon?? Do u know what it took to rebuild our country while others were bludging off western countries?

To all Australians please don’t generalize about Lebanese, a lot of us just want a fair chance and nothing for free, in Lebanon people earn respect and I think it’s the same here. Lets all count to 20 before we react to those that are harmful.

Good article

Complexity: Man, we've been counting to twenty for years, turning a blind eye to the loutish behaviour of some elements of Lebanese youth.
What good has that done us? It only continues and worsens. The thugs see us as chickens.

I agree with BOAZ, that it is primarily a law and order issue. If the police and the judiciary had been doing there jobs over the years, the thugs would be behind bars considering what they had done and the mainly good citizens of Cronulla would not have felt the need to protest about the bad behaviour and degradation that had been imposed on them for the last 10 years.

The police have simply no idea as to how to handle these menaces and even if they did, the judiciary has been going soft on them, letting them off with warnings, soft weekend detention or community service type sentences which most of them fail to attend - without punishment.

The govt, the police and the judiciary ALL need to get tough on anti social behaviour from all quarters.

Law and Order is a nice cliché especially around election time (or in case of NSW new leadership)

How can anyone legislate against ATTITUDE or THOUGHTS?

The anti-social behaviour we have been witnessing for years and years is the outward manifestation of deep rooted vile mentalities.

The problem is compounded when dealing with “islam” which comes packaged in its own set of uncompromisable values and beliefs.

That special "package" cannot integrate into any un-islamic society.

As long as we keep looking at the symptoms not the source of the problem - we can't expect long lasting solutions.

As mohammed's post warned: you ain't seen nothing yet.

Thanks Meredith,

I visited that blog and came across this very confronting photo and article from Sweden.
More muslims in Sweden means that if these Swedish girls don't start wearing burkas they'll have to leave the country.

http://majorityrights.com/index.php/weblog/comments/muslim_rape_wave_in_sweden/

What racist people should consider is that when the rest of us read their comments about how badly they have been treated by "Lebs" and "mossies", the automatic assumption is that the racist ones bring it on themselves by using insulting epithets. It's not rocket science. They should also put two and two together and work out that the reason the rest of us aren't having all these problems with people they seem to hate, is because we don't come to them with racist fear and loathing, we treat them as fellow human beings, and it's generally reciprocated. I'm sure this is why I and many of my friends have great relationships with people from many cultures. It just never occurred to us to sling off at them.

I have no problem asserting here that it's only "Aussies" (whatever racists mean by that term) who have ever caused violence on me or my friends, and I'm a blue-eyed Sydneysider born and bred -- been bashed many times just walking down streets in different towns, and always by my own "tribe". We guys are are far more afraid of "Aussie" footballers in and around pubs than any ethnic bogeymen you guys want to scare us with, and women have long told me about their fear of Australian males (who, let's face it, have earned an appalling reputation). Long live refugee resettlement in this country, and may the narrow-minded soon wake up to the seeds of fear and hatred in their hearts. There's room for diversity in this world, and national borders are an obsolete fiction. And as I have a son with dark skin colour, my resentment and sadness because of Australian racists is immense. Until you started spouting off he didn't know what this was about, now I fear for his safety -- I hope the white "Aussies" don't get him. Still, season's greetings and goodwill to all.

Almanac, you just said: 'We guys are are far more afraid of "Aussie" footballers in and around pubs than any ethnic bogeymen you guys want to scare us with,..'

Today, in the Sydney Morning Herald:
'One week ago, Sydney had the appalling spectre of a large group of street brawlers assembling in Punchbowl, forming a 40-car convoy, proceeding like a military flying squad, hazard lights blazing as a display of force and confidence, and causing havoc on the streets in the eastern suburbs, with the police nowhere to be found. Responding to any threat from the police with both numbers and belligerence has been standard and effective operating procedure in this subculture for years.'
(Original source: http://smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/little-punishment-for-the-real-thugs/2005/12/18/1134840739922.html)

The full article, entitled 'Little punishment for the real thugs' is a rare example of clarity.

And in case you missed it Almanac, a more detailed article about your 'ethnic bogeymen':
http://www.quadrant.org.au/php/article_view.php?article_id=581

Pissed footy players are often aggressive, but they've never fired rounds from assault rifles into a police station.

One poster tells of 2 years in Australia and tells us about our problems?
And a good paying job is the answer?, my job takes me to construction sites all over this state ,and workers from all over the world.
NONE ever dislike me because I am Aussie, none however are Lebanese Muslim.
We can fix this problem only if truth and honesty are our tools not blind stupity.
Lets understand raceism is just evil, even when its minority raceism against majority.

A Prison official informed yesterday [19/12/05] that the recent Lebanese thugs who have been imprisoned are placed in the general prison population and given much freedoms, able to mix with other prisoners and access to libary etc: while those who are identified as Australian thugs have been placed in protective custody, given single cells and have only two hours of exercise a day, and no access to general prison vacilities.

I ask are the Lebanese guests in this country or citizens of Australia? If they are guests then it is time for these criminals to leave. If they want to despise the host and break the houshold fittings then they are not welcome. We have enough thuggish children in this houshold to cope with!

Todays most Naive Statement..thanx Almanac.

<"the rest of us aren't having all these problems with people they seem to hate, is because we don't come to them with racist fear and loathing,>

The only 'loathing and hate' here is yours for your own country.
We just want to have public beaches PUBLIC for all, not for an exclusive minority to threaten us away from.

I'm wondering Almanac, how you react to a section of the public beach being 'cordoned off' by a specific ethnic/Religious group and all others 'excluded' from it ? Would you call this 'racist' ? I surely would.

Such behavior is 'intolerant', and marginalizes all non 'them' in an illegal and offensive manner.

I sure hope you don't shoot yourself in the foot by saying we should be 'tolerant' of intolerance because you will be laughed out of OLO.

I'm sure that the majority of us, would have a problem with a convoy of 60 odd cars all with emergency lights blinking, heading from Lakemba to maraud in Maroubra or Cronulla, without a hint of police intelligence aware of this, or trying to stop it. Yes we are informed by an OLO contributor that it was planned DAYS AHEAD of the riot and was NOT a 'reaction' to it.

If you are suggesting that the odd racial slurr perpetrated by 'Aussies' against darker skinned people is the justification for all of this, then I guess we should expect gang violence of a similar nature from Italians, Greeks, Asians... attacking our beaches, but gee.. I haven't yet seen that.

But, strange, I haven't also seen car loads of 'Aussies' rampaging through Lakemba. Perhaps Lakembas Muslim residents should learn "sticks and stones...etc"

Mentioning previous gang violence is not valid. We had sharpies, mods, rockers in Melb, but all faded. This, I assure you will not fade, because it is linked with 'world Islamic victimhood'. If they feel 'threatened' in Iraq, they hate us here. No sharpies or mods in Iraq mate.

I find your patronizing analysis shabby and even worse than racist.

Almanac

Sharpies, Mods, Bodgies, Surfies and Footballers never beat up old ladies or emptied pistols into groups of strangers.

Minuet, good post. I think all of us should be aware of the problems Islam is causing in Europe and the many crimes there targeting women. The issue of the burka is worse than you imagine. It is not even a matter of modest dress. I call your attention to an interview by Mona Eltahawy with a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. They were talking about women women's rights and dress, and the Muslim leader said that his group respected women, even so much that he was talking to her even although Mona was "naked." He meant, of course, she wasn't wearing a burka or two and maybe a blanket over it all.

http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=2941

See, folks, there can be no tolerance for this evil ideology. There is nothing we can do to make Muslims happy except let them rape us, cut our throats or become like them. As I have said (and demonstrated) Muslims will not face the facts about their religion, their torturing prophet, their evil customs and the intolerance and oppression that is the essence of Islam. There can be no compromise, we must be honest and tell them the things they don't want to hear.

Tanveer also is in denial, even if I believe there is hope for him. It is not just a segment of a community, it is not a Lebanese problem, it is Islam. Period. Please read what Muslims who live in the West are supposed to teach their children about their host countries:

http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=70256&dgn=4

"You should instill a hatred for this culture (the West) and its ways in the hearts of your children" (Question 70256, item 8)

How pathetic, how evil, how Islamic.

John aka Kactuz
Telling it like it is for 7 decades...

PS: I once posted a question at islam_qa but for some reason they chose to not answer it. Why?

Regarding the tension between Muslims and Australians (of all backgrounds), I would like to actually see the Muslim community make some public changes to their attitude and ways to show that they are prepared to change and to adapt in order to have peace in Australia and to blend better with the Australian culture, climate and ways.

Australians have been expected to bend over backwards to accommodate Muslims, yet Muslims haven’t agreed to change anything, that is a concern. They expect Australia to make special rules for them, to have a different attitude towards them and to adapt our ways to better suit their ways. In return they will what, not attack us? I don’t understand why our Government is so scared, are they afraid of losing votes. Are they afraid of retaliation.

It’s not surprising that people get upset, it seems like Australians are the only ones that are required to make sacrifices. Can’t have too many Christmas decorations, might upset the Muslims. Can’t have Ham in hospitals, might upset the Muslims. Need to have Halal meat, can’t upset the Muslims, etc. There seems to be a separate set of rules for Muslims in this Country and it seems that this Country in its attempt to not appear racist is changing things for the average Australians in order to better suit the Muslim community and as a result it is upsetting the Australians.

What I would like to know is why is our Government so afraid of upsetting the Muslims and why do they not seem to care whether they upset the non Muslims?

Australia is not a Muslim country and if we keep changing our ways and our laws so as to not upset the Muslims, you can rest assured that you are going to upset the Australians and its not only Muslims who can resort to violence when they feel threatened, as seen by the riots in Cronulla etc,. Australians are not going to sit back and do nothing whilst they feel that they are being taken over. To many that is how it feels!

Jolanda,
Fellow Posters,

You are on the right track - asking questions is a good start - but don't expect answers from our politicians or from the islamics - they both lie. Find out for yourself. Get the facts. Read the manuals (Qur’an, Hadiths, …)

I and many other posters have been trying to elucidate the problem as it is. Our greatest fear is the casual, apathetic and sometime pathetic way it is being received by the larger majority.

Australians are naive, very tolerant but mostly ignorant of anything foreign.

Islam is in a group of its own. It has no regards for colour of skin, language, place of birth, customs, culture, etc... It is an aggressive propagational force that will stop at nothing until the job is done.

As long as we treat "it" on our democratic terms and on our good western way of thinking we will continue to lose the war. Our laws and demeanour means absolutely nothing to "them".

“They” will tolerate and chuckle at us – after all we are the inferior race which Allah wants them to destroy.

Well said Jolanda! Why are they bending over to accommodate Muslims to the extent they do? Tax payer money has built many a mosque in this country and by the way, a very Merry Christmas to all of you!

And why are the only people being rounded up by police seem to be White Supremicists? Not that they shouldn't be rounded up, they definitely should - but what about the car loads of Lebanese youths that went to Maroubra and vandalised all those cars? When are they going to be rounded up? Seems they'll get away scot free - again.

Don't tell me the police have no idea who they are, they would have every number plate in that convoy from previous episodes of bad behaviour that they have executed across Sydney. Maybe we should propose that we all become more vigilant about taking number plates of cars full of occupants demonstrating anti-social behaviour? Maybe then the police would have the eveidence they need to prosecute these criminals as they obviously have a problem getting it on their own. (see Tim Priest's article to understand why)

When are the police going to start doing their job? And when are they going to address the very serious issue of illegal guns in Southern Sydney? The police know the guns are there and despite the fact that the National Gun Laws prohibit them, they allow these people to have them without any legal consequence at all. They should be seizing firearms out of that area because Allah knows, there are enough of them in there.

Who is up for some more proactive lobbying on this matter? Talking on a forum is all well and good but it doesn't get things done. Active lobbying on the issue of illegal gun ownership by Lebanese criminals in Southern Sydney would be a good thing to go public with. Is anyone else prepared to do something about it with me?

Let's call a spade a spade. The plain reason why the aggressors keep on getting away with it is because our politicians don't want to get their lily-white hands dirty. They don't want to get out of their taxpayer-funded comfort zones. They conveniently hide behind the blanket mantra of multiculturalism, but don't discriminate according to the actual level of threat. For years they have been turning a blind eye to on-ground intelligence that has been accurately identifying the racial/etc problems.

Much of the problem lies with ideology, political correctness and managerialism in the upper reaches of the political/bureaucratic/ elite establishment, lack of societal standards, and a culture of individualism and permissiveness. This has resulted in the weakening of our institutions as well as the police force. The worst of all the elites in my opinion was Bob Carr - the man with the deep voice who would run a mile at the slightest sign of danger. All he ever did was talk up law & order issues but do the exact opposite in terms of supporting front-line activity, including policing.

The police should be resourced and tasked to round up the bad eggs in society regardless of whether they're Caucasian or Arabic. They should be given full powers to do so. As well, they should be put under media scrutiny to ensure they don't misuse their power. And the rest of apathetic society should start getting off its rear end and clamour for a righting of the sinking ship of state. Don't forget people, that this is the only action that will change things, because all that politicians worry about is getting re-elected.

The arrant nonsense that tries to pass itself off as cogent debate is awe-inspiring in its dearth of reason.

1. Muslims comprise many millions of diverse cultures and countries.

2. Like any large congregation of human beings, not all Muslims agree with each other.

Therefore, if (as the Muslim phobic among us) maintain Islamic followers have a unified purpose in world domination, then they sure have taken their time about it - appears to be a couple of centuries late in fact. And given the diversity of opinion among them are not a homogenous group. Duh!

3. Some Muslims are really, really bad.

4. Some Christians are really, really bad.

5. The secular among us on this forum are really fed up with all the bickering and wish all religious people would make a really big effort to get along with each other.

6. Stating that all Muslims are bent on taking over Australia is the same as Hitler saying the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany.

Yes, the Lebanese youth behaved very badly, so did thousands of Anglo yobs - and they all will be processed in due course by the law of our land.

The previous posts would have to amount to nothing short of sedition - that is vilification of a group of people for their religious beliefs.

What disturbs me is just how much enjoyment certain posters are clearly getting out of promulgating this unjustified hatred.

I am sure that away from the PC, these keyboard bullies would never dare to speak to people the way they do to others on this forum. They know that they have to pull their respective heads in to get along be it in the workplace, the roads or in their own homes.

Tanveer pointed out, quite succinctly and fairly that there is a bad element among Lebanese youth.

And that is all - just an element. Not all Lebanese and certainly not all Muslims.

"Yes, the Lebanese youth behaved very badly, so did thousands of Anglo yobs"

Scout, by most accounts your "thousands" figure is rubbish. The reports I've read had the total crowd at between 2000 - 5000, of that a fraction, a few hundred, were reportedly engaged in violent/unruly behaviour.

Scout,

>>6. Stating that all Muslims are bent on taking over Australia is the same as Hitler saying the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany.<<

In the same way, in the 1930s, some were content to dismiss and mock Hitler, to see him as a clown incapable of doing real damage.

How could Germany conceivably think it might be able to defeat the Great Powers -- France, Great Britain, the Soviet Union -- along with other formidable smaller powers, including Poland, Holland, Belgium, and so on? Why, it simply wasn't possible.

It was a fantastic idea. They would never try it...

And that is why for so long so many simply regarded Hitler as a big joke, a figure of fun.

Charlie Chaplin, for example, in "The Great Dictator" in depicting Hitler as a clown, he helped lull those who saw the film, for a while longer, into complacency.

Thank God Churchill, who had spent a lifetime studying history had a better understanding. He did not take Hitler and the Nazis lightly. He did not think they were a joke. He did not dismiss them as fantasists.

Wake up scout

Let me tell you what I think part of the problem is!

Australia has Government run systems that are set up to cover up - all the way to the top. And even especially at the top. The process and procedures used in the name of the administration system are designed to cover up issues and protect those in power from having to answer.

The Laws are made by those in power for those in power. The result is what we are seeing today!

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

—Sir Winston Churchill, from The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899).

It's difficult to improve on the erudite and observant Churchill, no?

In my usual larconic way. I'd drawl with a wry smile... 'Then Churchill was a racist'... All the leftie and multi culturalist Aussies would cheer and applaud... all the seriously deficient Aussies would agree ... all true Aussies would ... laugh.

BOAZ-David,

16 December.."despicable". The last time I heard that word it came out of the mouth of Daffy Duck.

You started your post in a rational manner however by the end of it you were I think quite emotional.

I'll stop being offensive if you stop using words like "despicable".

I am being serious.

CHEERS..FRIEDRICH

I was just thinking and thought that maybe it really isn't racism that we are seeing, maybe it is really just malice, spite and hate!

Racism is a feeling of superiority, it doesn't necessarily include violence.

Did you know that you are permitted by law to discriminate against someone out of malice, spite and hate?

Maybe thats why those in Power appear unwilling and/or unable to do anything about the problems in the behaviour that we are seeing.

Maybe we need to take a good look at our Laws!

Freidrich,
I think you misunderstood my post where u referred to 'despicable'... I was actually addressing the post put by 'REASON' the contributor...not saying 'for reasons sake' in regard to your post.

I was saying that 'his' approach is despicable, not urs. Yours, I think is a bit misguided if you hold a 'racial purity/supremacy' position, but you will need to clarify that if u don't mind.

I feel sad that so much passion in the 'white surpemacist' camp is being wasted because it lacks moral authority and biological basis.
It's also likely to totally alienate the vast majority of the community from their cause.

If they can get rid of any notion of 'racial supremacy' and focus more on 'prevailing anglo culture' and emphasise our being able to 'control and manage' our immigration, settler location, and numbers from particular races/places/tribes/religions such that our social cohesian, cultural solidarity and political stability are protected, they would probably have a much bigger support base.

Take care.

Scout: You are right when you say that "The arrant nonsense that tries to pass itself off as cogent debate is awe-inspiring in its dearth of reason".

It echoes a school playground rejection of people who are different -- and no doubt it is also manifest in the mindsets of some of the non-Anglo-Celtic hoons who, if one is to believe the likes of BOAZ_David (Heaven forfend if I'm elevating him by acknowledgement), might well have been behaving badly in parts of Sydney. I am quite prepared to accept that pathetic racist actions have come from both sides. I was not at Cronulla last week (BOAZ_David sounds like he might have been, was he?) so I don't know what happened.

However, I do wish that these people who are so fired up and sure of their superiority would prove their mettle. I challenge them to exchange home visits with their antagonists. Do they have the courage to break bread with the "mossies" and "lebs" they so despise? Or is this all piss and wind, the carping of cowards and bullies? It takes courage to break out of the mould, to find solutions other than screaming and boyish vilification. I have in common with the purported anti-violence brigade here a dislike of brutality, but unlike them, it seems, I propose peaceful pursuits on both sides. Like many, I'm sure, I've waited in vain for them to offer such intelligent responses. Piss, wind, and no concept of compassion or the power of imagination. What do you want, more war in this poor world? God help us.

Let the ones who don't wish to be called racists and aggro's prove their stuff and discard this antagonism for something truly brave -- reconciliation. Now, that would take guts. Aussie guts, ye sons of Anzac. We want to see brave people breaking the chain of hatred, not armchair keyboardists and windbags trying to perpetuate it so their own wee-wees seem greater than their ability to construct sentences.

CARNIFEX: With enemies like you, who needs friends?

Almanac

Thanks for your post - nice to see a bit of (un)common sense in place of cowardly mossie bashing.

And they are cowards - reconciliation just sounds like hard work to people who love to cast blame and avoid responsibility.

I have literally 'broken bread' on many occasions with Muslim people as a result of working with them. I also used to live in Coburg/Brunswick area of Melbourne for many years. Strange how I never encountered the hostility the 'mossie bashers' claim they have experienced. After all, I am obviously white, in fact most people think I have German or Scandinavian origin so you'd think I'd be a target for 'middle eastern in appearance thugs'.

While I despair of the hatred that manifests in many of the posts, I continue to post from time to time in an effort to bring some form of balance to the discussion.

I agree there is a problem in Cronulla and that there has been appalling behaviour by Lebanese youth. However, to paint all Muslims as 'bad' is indeed arrant nonsense. As I stated this type of talk is the same as that used by nazis and others to dehumanise a group of people in order to subjugate and, worse, eliminate them.

BTW, Boaz lives in a mostly white eastern suburb of Melbourne - very much doubt he has first hand experience of Cronulla youth.

Perhaps "RECONCILIATION" has too many syllables for the 'mossie bashers'.

Cheers everyone

Almanac, could you please quote what I said and and explain how that relates to your last comment?

I wrote something regarding your post on Sydney gangs is that the best you can come up with?

I see now that the "peace and love" brigade are out we are supposed to reconcile with the irreconcilable. Amusing tha these type have met a Muslim or two and found them to be just wonderful (and there's no reason why Muslims shouldn't be "nice" people) or they're walked down Lakemba's main street, emerged alive and said "what's all the fuss about"? Then those who have fought back against the "Lebbos" are accused of cowardice... strange, when it's Leb gangs which make sure the odds are 5-6 to one, and that's when they attack old ladies.

A close relative of mine had to change high schools because of disruptive, out-of-control Leb males. Otherwise they'd not have gotten through year 12. The high school in question still has hordes of males who feel they don't need an education and who are disrespectful towards teaching staff, especially females. There are many other schools like it.

Anyone who thinks it's a matter of few hugs and kisses thrown the way of the thugs is living in lah-lah land. Go and spend a few weeks living near Lakemba while you're on your missions to save the poor Lebs from vicious racist Australians. Don't shoot your mouth off at those who on the front line, from far off Melbourne or Adelaide. It's you who are the cowards, to scared to face reality.

BD, a racial purity approach is "is a bit misguided" where as asking if someone is a christain is "despicable". That tells quite a stroy in itself. As I mentioned elsewhere you are so out of balance on this issue it defies description. Can't tolerate the muslims who just want to get on with their lives because some muslims do bad things. Assume that any christian who does bad things is not really a christain, but won't allow muslims the same excuse.

You regard someone singing the same kind of tune as the folks that built the gas chambers as "Dear" and "a bit misguided", someone who's love for democracy is such that he wants to see "lefties" dead and wants to deport skippy's to Beruit if they disagree with him and yet you get stuck into Irfan, Fellow_Human etc at every possible opportunity. I feel a bit ill.

Almanac, Scout, reason and others trying to maintain some balance in this debate, thanks for the pools of sanity in cesspit.

R0bert

Almanac used terms such as

“sure of their superiority”

“hate and loathing”

so, it appears that I and some others regard ourselves as “Superior beings who loathe and hate all lesser beings” good one Almanac :)

on the ‘loathing’ thing, should I paste the dictionary full of expletives and loathing that you emailed to me after our previous ‘issue’ ? They would see where ‘loathing’ gained its definition from that mouthful, but blessings on you anyway.

On ‘Reconciliation’... and ‘reaching out’ to those we disagree with, it would have been very easy to just ‘point out’ and correct my previous misreading of your web site, and I would have happily acknowledged that.

Scout is correct, I live in the predominantly Eastern ‘white’ suburbs (except of course for Springvale mostly asian, and Box Hill mostly asian) but you seem to neglect that I’m married to an Asian and my daughter used to get ‘You were born in a peanut butter jar’ hurled at her in primary school. She had such social dysfunction from ‘white’ bitches and their racist attacks at high school that she never finished secondary. Added to this, most of our friends are from cross cultural marriages and or are Asian or Colored south africans.. yep..sounds like I’m a loyal ‘white supremacist’ :)

Muslims from my wifes work have sought out her friendship... specially coming to visit us, yep..sounds like we can’t stand em :)

BUT WAIT... that does not accord with Almanacs script.. I’m supposed to ‘hate and loathe’ these inferior people.....*. looks sideways with eyes rolling *

ROBERT... I would rather reach out to Friedrich, I don’t know much about his ideas yet.
we can tackle specific issues one at a time. Isn’t it better to start in a position of friendliness ?
He has made ONE comment out of 23 “I’m for white pride” which concerns me, he is yet to elaborate on his meaning.

Please show me ONE place where I have “condemned ” Fellow Human or Irfan personally.. just one :)

(attacks on Islam are not admissable, as this is robust debate about issues)

BOAZ-david,

Sorry about the mix-up.

You made a lot of good points. Thanks.

Cheers,

Friedrich

Extract From:
Gerard Jackson BrookesNews.Com Monday 19 December 2005
"Leftwing journalists are writing sob stories about how badly Australians are allegedly treating Muslims. Yet Lebanese Muslim goons have been terrorizing locals for years without a peep from these leftwing bigots who call themselves journalists.

'Report' after 'report' on the Cronulla riots stressed Australian racists as being the problem. When it came to fingering Lebanese Muslim thugs the same journalists omitted the thuggery and described this scum as "being of Middle Eastern appearance. This lie was a shabby attempt to reinforce their despicable view that Australians are basically racist.

A list of articles follows.... then he describes the prior events....
"Let us take a quick look at what this despicable bunch of ideologically motivated hacks deliberately ignored. Three lifesavers objected to Lebanese Muslims bullying a group of women because of their bathing costumes These Muslim thugs attacked the greatly outnumbered lifesavers and badly beat them, rendering one of them unconscious.

It was this vicious incident of Lebanese Muslim thuggery that sparked the riots that these mendacious journalists are blaming real Australians for. For more than ten years these misogynistic thugs have been getting bolder in their demands and their violence in the face of the ALP Government's contemptible cowardice and its refusal to order the police to enforce the rule of law against these self-appointed religious police.
[cont]

If the riots were racially inspired, as our journalists claim, how come only Lebanese Muslim thugs were targeted? Why were there no Indians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Ceylonese, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jews, etc., involved? Also ignored by our media guardians is the interesting fact that the Lebanese have been immigrating to Australia for more than 100 years without any kind of reaction from native Australians. Additionally, how do they explain Lebanese Catholic churches being targeted by Muslims?

So what happened? Nearly all of the former immigrants were Maronites while the Lebanese scum that started the riots are Muslims who came here in the 1970s. So what is that telling us? New South Wales Police Commissioner Ken Moroney inadvertently let the cat out of the bag when he admitted on Channel 7 that he ...sensed within some elements of this (Middle Eastern) community a hate. It's a hate that I don't understand, I don't understand it as a man

"Middle Eastern" is the multiculturalist's code phrase for Muslim. So what we have here is Muslim hatred of Australia. Nevertheless, despite massive evidence to the contrary our leftwing media still insists on lying to the public. It's true that some racists attached themselves to the mob. But to use their opportunism to smear fellow Australians as "neo-Nazis" is, unfortunately, par for the course for our agitprop journos.

The truth, something these leftwing hacks cannot tolerate, is that the Labor Government encouraged the situation to fester until uncontrolled vigilantism broke out. Intolerable as mob rule is, let us not lose sight of who is really responsible for it. As Tim Priest, a former Sydney police detective, put it: ....."
See http://www.brookesnews.com/051912muslim.html

Boaz, Philo and other 'Mosque-teers',

Christmas is a time when Muslims usually read and study Virgin Mary & Jesus story in our Holy book. It is time to think and reflect on the great wisdom of jesus PBUH.

My last posting on this thread.
Merry Christmas to you all,

Peace,

BD - yet again you remind us that you are married to an Asian woman.

"Scout is correct, I live in the predominantly Eastern ‘white’ suburbs ...... but you seem to neglect that I’m married to an Asian."

I believe that the astute poster to this forum is aware that your bigotry is only for a single group of people:

THE NON-CHRISTIAN

I am probably safe in assuming that your wife is a christian who, no doubt, is guided by your all-knowing christian husbandliness. As such she should be given a medal.

To Irfan, R0bert, Fellow-Human, Enaj, Kay, Bronwyn, Reason, Almanac and many others who try to bring a little reason, honesty and balance to these pages I wish you the very best this season has to offer.

And to those who hold nothing but malice in your hearts may the blue-bird of happiness fly up your left nostril and lay many eggs.

Love to all.

Peace to all.

And to all a good day.

Dianne

Scout,

Your assumptions about BOAZ, his wife and his faith sound just as prejudiced as the claims you're making about his own alleged prejudices against others.

Your broadbrushed criticisms show me that you are no better than anyone else when it comes to creating divisiveness in our community.
Was it your intention to alientate him with your comments or did you just not think before you started typing? If you really want to see unity in our community, consider your own actions first and foremost.

I wish you and all the members a Merry Christmas and ask that we all take a few minutes to reflect on why we celebrate this special time; the birth of Jesus the Saviour.

Perhaps, with his Spirit in mind, we can all begin to see how we should treat one another in the future and begin to mend the rifts that have opened up in our society. It takes both sides to admit their wrong doings and forgive so that we can move on.

Give 'em enough rope

If you have been reading BD's posts as long as I, you would know that he believes that a wife's place is being guided by her hubby, who in turn is guided by god.
The reason I made this claim is because BD always mentions how he is married to an Asian whenever he is accused of bias. And, again, if you had been following BD's posts you would know that he isn't racist just bigoted against non-christians.

Therefore I was not assuming much apart from that of BD's wife's religion. Now can you imagine BD being married to a non-christian? I can't. However, I am sure that the inimitable Boaz will clarify this assumption for us.

I have never claimed to be better than anyone else. If you have been following my posts you would know that I have only ever asked for balanced discussions rather than constant vilification against Muslims and other non-christians.

Unfortunately I detect some malice in your heart - hope you like scrambled eggs.

;-D

Excuses, excuses.

You ask for balance on the one hand and then continue to make assumptions about my agenda while accusing me of malice on the other. Well, I'm calling you out.

You have shown your self to be intolerant and prejudice against those that you do not understand (myself for starters) which really gives you no credibility when it comes to commenting on the supposed prejudices of others. Put a little love in your heart brother, it's the season to be jolly, remember?

Read my last post and you decide whether I sound malicious or not.

Try not accusing people of biggotry and malice everytime they express a difference of opinion to your own.

Merry Christmas one and all.

...

Dear Scout :)

aah..BALANCE.. what a lovely word.

Here is a beautiful example of it from a Muslim Journalist from Pakistan, who I thanked personally for his insights.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2005\12\22\story_22-12-2005_pg3_2

You seem to have considerable sympathy for my wife. She has been the victim of racism from Vietnamese in her workplace, but not once from 'White' folks, they love her.

I 'guide' her mostly in matters where her overly generous personality would otherwise result in some very happy recipients, and us unable to pay our mortgage. I don't think thats a huge problem. You put far too much weight on my 'man is the head of the house' thingy, and far too little on the 'men are to love their wives AS Christ loved the Church' but then.. to mention that would require 'balance'.

Give-em.. thanx for your kind words.

BIGOTED towards Non Christians. If by that you mean I actually believe the Gospel, which differentiates between believers and unbelievers (Just like Islam) and Buddhism with its 'enlightened and unenlightened' well.. guilty as charged. There are other words which are a bit more generous u could have used "Passionate, Committed, has conviction to his principles", but hey.. bigoted will do for now. It goes with the territory.

To all non Christians,

A blessed Christmas season to all. My prayer is that Christ may be seen and known during this time.

Scout:

The simmering aggression is worrisome. The healing power circles and aromatherapy mud baths appear not to be working any more, perhaps it is time to wheel out the big guns, the Big Blue Bird of Happiness. Failing that, Largactyl may be of some help, at least with that nagging egg laying in the nostril thing.

You seem particularly concerned with BD, can we assume you are rabidly anti Christian by any chance, or merely racist towards Asian women. And by comparison you remind all of your own supremely enlightened insights that come from having worked with a Muslim once. Again. You breaker of bread, world weary traveller you. No doubt an opening in the foreign office for one of such broad experience.

Your manifesto:

"The secular among us on this forum are really fed up with all the bickering and wish all religious people would make a really big effort to get along with each other."

I am secular and I wish you would stop spewing this constant stream of hatred towards Christians. Beyond which "a weally big effort to get along with each other" is pure vacuity. It is surprising that an adult would write this in a public forum.

"Stating that all Muslims are bent on taking over Australia is the same as Hitler saying the same thing about the Jews in Nazi Germany."

It is interesting that you keep returning to the idea of Hitler and Nazis (here and elsewhere) when referring to insults suffered by Islam. A moments reflection on your behalf should make it fairly clear that this is an insensitive choice of comparison. You know, Israel, PLO, Islam, Jews, all that stuff... In your own words:

"Duh!"

And finally, some more of your words:

"The arrant nonsense that tries to pass itself off as cogent debate is awe-inspiring in its dearth of reason"

How wooden, how constipated, and given the context, how perfectly devoid of any serious meaning. How long did you work on that one for, it looks suspiciously laboured.

"Love to all."

I can feel it, you pompous twit.

Boaz…. Sorry for the delay.

I laughed when I read your comment decrying my question of religion as despicable. A find it’s a little like a comment from the kettle to the pot.

I need say no more than agree with R0bert. I would say you have applied at the least dubious logic and at the worst double standards to the way you treat situations – depending on their religious bent.

I don’t need nor want your prayers Boaz. They are given I would suspect in the hope that your god will find a way to ‘bring me over’. Something I would not want – nor believe exists – in a thousand lifetimes.

Wouldn’t it be better to simply pray we can find peace in our differences?

Scout,
Things I have wanted to say for some time… cheers. It is easy for some to twist the written words for another’s pain. Much harder to view those words from a new perspective and understand the intended meaning. Keep at it.

Pig,
Pompous twit indeed…

Do the true left ever think about reality?my lifes work is to remove Howard by winning an election.
But the real enemy of non conservatives is the real left, who use ratbag marjinalised ideas that less than 10% agree with.
It is not raceist to understand many who are Muslim will never mix with us.
Nore to be ofended by the use of the word Australian as an insult, roll on new Labor, Australias only future.

David Boaz....

On a personal note, about so-called racism. Of course, everybody has prejudices - some more than others. And we all stereotype - some more than others. This is called "experience" and this is part of the "human condition."

I, too, have been called a racist, not by just anybody but by my own children. Yep. There were times when they unloaded the R word on me, like when I said that Europe would explode in 5 years for certain resons, or when I say things about certain groups. I say provocative things about certain un-pc groups, but that is acceptable.

For reasons that I don't understand, 2 of my kids are very liberal, and have used words like "racist" and "crazy" about me. Does it bother me? A little, but they are not stupid and there is hope. They must live their lives and make their decisions.

Anyway, the funny part is that on any week of any month, in or out of work, I have more contact with 'colored' people than both of them together in a year. I talk to non-whites, work with them, eat with them, joke with them and argue with them. My daughter lives in Switzerland. I have seen her friends, and they need a little sun I think. My other son has pretty much the same type of pale associates.

It gets worse. Perhaps they haven't noticed it but their mother, my poor suffering wife, it not exactly white. She is not even hardy brown - and we have been married for longer than most people here on OLO have lived, I am sure. We where married decades before inter-racial marriages were accepted or common.

And I am the racist in the family.

The fact is that people who use the "racist" arguement just don't have any really good facts or ideas. I am sure that there are people here who consider me a racist even though I have only written about religious and ideological issues. I really don't care what they think about me.

You have a nice Christmas.

John

Oh dear, I seem to have caught the ire of Mr P.P.

Mr P.P. as you are so easily threatened by anything that even remotely appears complex, I shall endeavour to keep my response succinct.

Had you been following this thread you would be aware that yet again BD brought his wife’s Asian origins to the discussion to prove that he is not racist. I concurred he is not.
How you managed to deduce racism from my assumption that BD’s wife is Christian defies logic and brings into doubt your ability to think rationally.

Furthermore, I am not hostile towards any particular religion. However, I have been subjected to considerable and continual abuse by a couple of our resident zealots and also to BD’s continual biblical quotes and admonishments. Due to the antics of these misguided Christians I am never likely to consider Christianity as a path to be followed. Other Christians such as Shonga and Crabby are a credit to their religion and make positive contributions to OLO.

I hope this has been edifying for you.

Boaz; passion is light years removed from obsession, my friend.

I am passionate about life, literature, music; in fact many things. However, I have sufficient respect for my fellow posters to refrain from banging on incessantly about my beliefs. It is an insult to the sensibilities of others that, rather than make valid points, (and you do occasionally make them) you feel the need to admonish the non-christian posters to this forum. This is obsession, more commonly referred to as Bible Bashing. You do not win converts from this behaviour.

Therefore, I can only conclude you do not respect others.

For example:

“…………… you have gone totally astray and are heading for a Christless eternity. I encourage you to turn to Him now, and leave forever the hate,violence and darkness which is Islam.

Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 7:57:37 AM”

From the ‘Some will not Integrate’ thread in admonishment to Muslim poster.

I leave you condemned by your own bigoted words.

Merry Christmas.

In observation where an accumulation of people are, there is an accumulation of communications and donation.

Wealth is power to the current "Consumer ideology" which is driven by an accumulation of people.

Religion has proven to be of influence as history as read in Literature and Biography.

Australia is still a young country who needs to think and consider its future by current and past models of our visionaries.

We need to maintain the "Freedom of democracy" so that as custodians we can change these visions for our future and its environment, if do not wish it harm.

We are merely borrowing what is theirs.

Religion in Australia has never had the intense burden and pressure that is being highlighted.

Australia has been guided on a humanity toward common interest and a patriotism toward providing opportunity to our future generations.

And nice stories of hope and aspiration

On the record I am an ALP voter always, yet my and my partys enemy is more often the leftists.
They small in numbers drag us down at poll times, most recently the Crean/Latham team turned us into the Titanic.
Here in this thread the left displays its self, we most of us are so far from raceist you can not get further.
Aware of the growing world wide problems and Sydneys crime ,hate, and ongoing problems based on hatred of skippys, Australians, and its home within the Lebanese Muslim comunity we are constantly abused by the left.
Please go Green stand away from the only party that can remove Howard while Labor must move to the middle ground .
And pray you never be a victim of true hatred shown to us by a few.

Cronulla and Maroubra was not about white supremacy, so we must be careful not to identify the problem merely as a "White's" problem. It was not intrinsically a colour problem it was sparked by what most Australians consider a criminal cultural problem founded in Lebanese Muslim attitudes that has been ignored by the will of Government for years. We do not have problems with black African refugees or Indian settlers or even Lebanese practising Christians in Australia. The attitude is isolated to a cultural gang of Lebanese Muslims who despise our culture as inferior and they consider Aussie women degrade themselves as sluts by their undress.

The Cronulla protesters were typical Australians, other than a few White supremasists who hijacked the protest with violence. The real attitudes of supremacy was previously present in the cultural minds of Lebanese Muslim youth, who despised our Australian beach culture; culminating in the assult of surf life savers who in the minds of these Muslim youth had trespassed into an area they identified as their beach area.

"Get off our beach" was the retort to the life savers before the Muslim youth assult. So this is how they identified and saw the problem. Surf Life Savers are there for the protection of the whole beach area. This is the culminating point of the conflict!

It is this attitude that Australians consider as selfish criminal behaviour that has been condoned and not actively condemned by the Government and activist Muslim leaders. This attitude might be foreign to our values, but any action even if considered criminal to the West is acceptable if ultimately fulfills the rule of Allah's laws. This is a commonly used strategy in the Muslim arsenal to gain territory, and they have now conned the Government to give hundreds of thousands of Dollars to train Muslim life guards, while the Government has given little to the training of existing Surf Life Saving Clubs. Yet these Clubs are open and welcomed all who will comitt to its disciplined training and service

Thank you, Nicola, for your understanding. Here is why I believe bullying has reached the stage that it has.

My children have been overtly systemically targeted and bullied by the system for many years. When fellow parents saw what was happening to my children they didn’t offer support or help they got together and picked a representative to come to my home to tell me not to mention them, their kids or the school in my formal complaints as they were scared it would have an adverse affect on their children and that their children would also be victimized and targeted. They turned their back on my children and left them to be destroyed. The lack of public support made my children easy targets for the system.

Children learn by example. There are adults that are setting terrible examples for our children in relation to how to respond and deal with these issues.

I couldn’t believe that fellow parents could turn their backs on innocent children so I spoke to one mother about it and I asked her if she saw her daughters best friend being victimized and treated unfairly, whether she would stand up on her behalf and I was told NO!. I was told that if it didn’t concern her child that she would not get involved.

It seems like people like to wait until a child is either dying or dead or does something that threatens their child before they feel any moral obligation to intervene.

If the silent majority do not stand up and support each other against the bullies then we will not be able to overcome the problem. We live in fear or retaliation.

You are right about many wanting to set their own curriculum. I am not one of those as I find it really difficult, probably because my children are very highly intellectually gifted and I have no higher education or support and I stress. I actually don’t enjoy presenting the school work part of home-schooling. I do however enjoy being with my children, they are great kids.

Oops, last post was supposed to be on the bullying thread. Sorry.

We have the Greens and Left wing of the Labor Party in Waverley Council voting to remove the Australian Flag from Beach Front Iconic buildings because they believe it is flying the flag in the face of Lebanese racist thugs, and its dispay is innapropiate. They believe it would cause racist conflict. Is Bondi regarded as under the Australian Flag as part of Australia, or is it part of the Lebanese territory?

The morons that are underming Australia are the Greens and Left wing Labor PC brigade on local Councils. We have more to fear from these people than any new Political Party. These councilers are lilly livered cowards that have no pride in our heritage and history. They appear good on green issues but have a hidden agenda on social policy.

Oh, BOAZ_David, you're being a naughty boy again, aren't you! It's not as bad as when you defamed me on the discussion board http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3876 (when you were barred from the forum for a week for using defamation instead of debate, do you remember that? When you posted a libel against me AFTER I said I had left the forum? You scamp! If you don't remember, see my post there of Monday, 28 November 2005 4:14:50 PM). But it's pretty bad, isn't it, David. You know it is, don't you? Yes, it's naughty. I bet Santa didn't come, did he? Because that wasn't nice, was it, BOZA?

Now you write on this forum: "so, it appears that I and some others regard ourselves as 'Superior beings who loathe and hate all lesser beings'" -- Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 22 December 2005 12:31:03 PM. You use quotation marks to pretend that I wrote something that I did not. Oh, dear, BOZA, that's naughty again. What are we going to do with you, you scallywag? To be fair, we should tell you that some of the people here can read fairly well, and can scroll up to read what I wrote. In fact, if they scroll up on this page to 'Posted by Almanac, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 11:19:14 PM' they will see that I don't even mention you, let alone use the words and allegations you attribute to me. Oh, David, David, what on earth are we to do with you?!

BOZA, there are some great books around about how to form and project arguments. That would be great, wouldn't it! I can recommend 'Straight and Crooked Thinking', by Robert Thouless. It's not very long and the concepts are presented so almost anybody can understand them. I sincerely believe you could follow it, probably, so my New Year wish to you is that you give it your best shot. Happy New Year, Davey. Big kiss!

You know what I mean. Naughty ... and nice. Like Muslims are naughty, and Christians are nice. It's a Santa Claus thing, Dave.

Philo,

You have been taken in by the propaganda of the right.

The Bondi Pavillion is a heritage building, any changes, including the erection of any flagpoles, requires an extensive enquiry and reports that will cost the ratepayers of Waverley thousands of dollars.

Meanwhile, on flagpoles on the Waverley Council Chambers, which you will pass on the way to Bondi Beach on Bondi Road, you will see the Australian flag proudly flying.

Waverley Council maintains, in a wonderful state, the small war memorial with its marble 'Digger', and its surrounds, located within 60 metres of the Council Chambers. These small war memorials are the very essense of Australian culture, and most of the morons who have issues with Australian culture have at least had the brains to leave those alone, becuase they know what will happen when one is desecrated.

On Bondi Beach the Bondi Lifesaving Club flys the Australian flag.

So Philo, can you at least get your facts right before going to print?

Dear Almanac...
I've recovered from your "kisses"..but you have to imagine Jim Carrey in 'Pet Detective' after he found out the chief of police was in fact a man....... in the shower with his toothbrush, scraping his tongue :)

My quotes in fact encompassed TWO of your posts, not one.
In the first you 'implied' me but didn't name, in the 2nd, you named me repeatedly. So, in the good spirit of your new found friendliness and affection 'ner'. You did mention loathing, superiority and hate between those posts. It's wrong, don't just 'assert'.. qualify and back up.

I don't hate a person because he/she is a Muslim. I have GRAVE concerns over where 'being Muslim' can lead in a multi racial/religious context, where there are large concentrations of them, with Sulawesi this last week and Cronulla being a prime example since we last interacted. My contention is that the 'radicals' drive agenda's. The rest just follow or acquiesce. So, my 'campaign' is one of awareness. Have you heard of any death threats toward specific Muslims like Trendy Trad, or Happy Hilali ? Nope..neither have I. But I've head of one against that Anglo surfer guy with the hairy chest. We have a BIG problem there.

I see fear now in the face of Scippione, (police) and Meredith posted that her friend heard the panic in the police radio chanels...

I've indicated on other threads, my life is constantly intertwined with other races and cultures. My Christmas dinner had me, AngloScot, my wife (Bornean) my kids (mixed) my daughters boyfriend (Mixed maori/Anglo). Most of my business contacts are Asian, and I relate well with Muslim or Buddhist or free thinkers.

I'm Victorian by the way... was not in Sydney scurrying around with my swastika white supremacist handouts. But I will be sending out ONE 'nazi' poster soon. It will have a pic of Steve (Adolph) Bracks (with a photoshop addition of a moustache) prior to our 2006 ELection.
(I'll get legal advice first :)
P.S. u know u can't stop reading my posts :) God bless. (but no kiss !)

philos posts are well put , and that post about Bondi? come come what sad rubbish!
About 6 months before the last federal election it became clear to me the left had already killed any chance the ALP ever had.
If the thinking behind Bondi flag sham is taken into the next election a further landslide victory to Howard would wipe out non conservative partys, Waverly council is a shambles.
And has lost touch with Australian voters.

Hamlet,

Your claim I have been taken in by the propaganda of the right is nonsence. I listened to the reasoning of the Mayor of Waverley herself and I became convinced the 6 to 5 vote in favour of not flying the flag on Bondi Pavillion was nothing more than cowardise and surrender.

Most heritage buildings can well fly the symbol of Australian heritage - the Australian Flag. You see the Greens hate the links with our English St George Cross, St Patricks Cross and St Andrews Cross in the corner of the Southern Cross. However it represents a former coming together of three countries in one union with high ideals to build a better and unified society under the Southern Cross. The flag represents our cultural heritage that preceeds the recent add'ons to the Bondi Pavillion.

In fact Malcom Turnbull the local Member has offered to pay for the flagpole to be erected and flags to fly. There is no cost to the local taxpayer - cost being the reason is a furfey. An expensive inquiry - how much money does it take to make a decidion? Typical of indecisive councillors they must be removed from office and replaced with decision makers that represent the views of the community.

I had nothing to say about other flags flying in Waverley Council. But one of the reasons being put to not fly the Australian flag was; to fly the flag on a Council icon on the beach front could arouse racial tensions.

Quote, "You have been taken in by the The Bondi Pavillion is a heritage building, any changes, including the erection of any flagpoles, requires an extensive enquiry and reports that will cost the ratepayers of Waverley thousands of dollars."

David

With regard to election material it is very unlikely you will be sued for anything you say as most political material published at election time is usually regarded as 'fair comment' and isn't regarded as likely to be found defamatory or libelous. Anyway that has been my experience in Queensland...but check.

Mr David, BOAZ: The definition of a split second is the interval between posting or emailing an error, and one's realisation of it. I did indeed mention you in the post, I'm sorry, and the silly OLO software didn't allow post-publication editing. Your criticism of my post was not only correct but, under the circumstances, restrained. "Nice", in fact. I can only assume you're taking the tablets again. Remember, two yellow, one pink, and never the other way around.

I find it ironic that the SMH on line, in its article about the Australian flag at Bondi, uses a photo of a flagpole, without flag, on the top of a Bondi pub, yes, hotel, watering hole etc, to illustrate its point. Not the Pavillion, of course.

There is no flagpole on the Bondi Pavillion for a flag to be flown from, so how can Waverley Council be accused of banning the flying of a flag from a non-existing pole?

And now the premier has come out and said that he, will in effect, override planning and heritage regulations to get a flagpole up.

Talk about the flag being hi-jacked!

And Philo, the ratepayers of Bondi are getting heartily sick and tired of paying for other's appreciation of Bondi, from the City to Surf to the Festival of the Winds and Sculptures by the Sea, and all the other weekend invasions.

Why the hell should we pay for a flagpole so that you can gaze at in in appreciation?

I was conceived and raised in Bondi, my father was BORN in Bondi. I have lived 95% of my life in the Waverley Council area. People like you, telling the long term residents and ratepayers of Waverley about whether we should fly a flag or not are just like the Islamics that you despise telling the rest of Australia to accept them and their behaviour.

You don't like multiculturalism telling you what to think or do? Well the residents of Bondi will welcome visitors and the like, just don't go telling us how to run our lives, and how to spend our council's finances.

Almanac..well done... ur learnin :)

All we need to do now is knock off a bit of that intellectual arrogance (grin) and chanel it into some positive well balanced views about
-immigration and Assimilaton
-a peoples bank,
-protection against outsourcing hi as well as low tech jobs to Asia,
-selective tarrifs against countries which exploit labor with dictatorial harshness and artificially low wages,
-and burn your John Pilger idol :)

...and the universe will be restored !

..now, is this too much to ask ? I'm sure your web site could be quite beneficial to such a cause..

Oh.. have you looked at the 'Save Australia Alliance' ? I'm still working through its material and am going to make some phone calls tomorrow. I'm always wary of such things, and it 'seems' a bit 'worker' oriented rather than 'nation' oriented at present.. but I could be lacking information there.

Happy blogging.

Hamlet,
your slip is showing.
The Waverley Council actually had a motion before it to fly the flag on Bondi Pavillon. I did not suggest the motion.

This was rejected by the Green's counsellor because he felt it would raise racist tensions. There is photographic evidence from 1939 that the Australian flag actually flew on Bondi Pavillon, so flying the flage would represent its former heritage.

Donn't accuse me of hijacking our flag for political purposes, it is evident the Labor left and Greens want to hide our flag because they have politicised it as representing racism. Next we will have them flying the Lebanese flag or the crescent moon there as a form of appeasment and their PC reconciliation.

Please lets stop ignoreing the reason the Mayor of Waverly council gave for not flying OUR NATIONAL FLAG.
Cleary truth is better than politicaly corect junk! she said the flag had been used by both sides in the recent out break of lawlessness and council did not want to promote that.
In time the left will understand time and again voters Labor and conservative have rejected political corectness and will continue to understand truth has far more value.

Good to see that my posts that were on the wrong thread were deleted. I have fixed the problem that causes me to keep posting on the wrong thread.

Won't happen again Sorry. With regard to the Flag issue I would say that there are people out there who like to stir the pot - that happens on all sides.

Hopefully the community will be smart enough to see through it.

Everyone

Write to the Waverly Council, (they have had offers by others to pay the $200 aprox for the flag)

http://www.waverley.nsw.gov.au/talktous/email.asp

btw this is interesting as well.
http://www.waverley.nsw.gov.au/area/census/

Thanks for those links Meredith. I sent a letter of complaint to Waverley Council.

Cheers
Kay

To all the posters who have a problem with Waverley Council:

It is important that you didn't let the truth get in the way of a good story:

From today's SMH. Letters Page:

http://www.smh.com.au/letters/?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Waverley Council is very proud to fly the Australian flag and the Aboriginal flag on its chambers in Bondi Road. It is proud to fly Australian flags on Bondi's beachfront, where there are at least four Australian flags. Two of these flags are on council-owned surf club buildings.

How many flags do we need at Bondi Beach? Are four not enough?
The council does not agree with Malcolm Turnbull's flag-flying obsession and is not obliged to fly the flag on every building he decides should have one.

Personally, and as a member of the Greens, I support the republican debate hitherto championed by Mr Turnbull. Is he attempting to bury his republican past by flagging every building in his Wentworth electorate?

Mora Main Mayor, Waverley Council, Bondi Junction

And for all those who feel the need to tell Waverley Council what to do, how would you feel if outsiders told your council how to act?

Thanks for the link I think my point got across, we are however drifting from the thread.
I went back to the start and still agree with its author and still hold the view ignoreing any racist act is a crime.
Includeing the racist and sometimes criminal acts of SOME Lebanese Muslims.
Some from the left only find racism ofensive if it can be used to prove leftist lies.
From within the ALP its my truely held view our true left are more the enemy than Howard, they defeat us before the polls far too often.

more sick stuff from moses child david boaz,what a yawn!

I am a 19 year old male, my mother is austrailian both her parents were born in Holland, my father is australian both his parents were born in lebanon. Me, I am Australian. I have been thrown out of a girlfriends house after he found out I was part lebanese, he said F&^% off back to your own country were you can kill each other off. I have been called wog, lebo, dirty leb, i cant count how many times terrorist, and muslim. My fathers family is Christian Lebanese not that, that should matter muslim or Christian. I have had girls tell me they can't see me anymore after they hear I am Lebanese! Someone told me once "I have the lebanese disease." My best friends mother asked me if I am still proud of my Lebanese heritage after all that has happened in Australia and middle east, then told me I shouldn't be. When a "white australian"<i hate saying sterio types like that but Im making an exception. If a white Australian commits a crime its just a crime, if a australian, i repeat australian... lebanese person commits a crime it is a lebanese problem, it is a don't sleep at night the lebanese disease is coming to get you! I mean what i have gone through just because my fathers background is Lebanese has changed my life, I struggle to feel Australian when I am called a disease. I can't help but want to hit someone who shouts racist comments or looks at me and my lebanese family members on the street like they want us dead.

I feel for the Lebanese muslims because I think if i was Muslim as well I would feel totaly distant from australia and its culture. I agree that lebanese fathers don't have much to do with there children, my father has inherited this trait and finds it hard to talk or sit down with me for more than 5 mins without wanting to call someone about work, he is a workoholic. And to the person who made the comment that lebanese christians only prolem in australia is organized crime, russians, italians, australians, indonesians, vietnamese mafia, mafia are from everywhere not just lebanese in kings cross. Look at the website Stormfront on google otherwise known as white pride world wide, they have posts calling for another cronella beach riot, there is a stormfront australia, and they were part of organizing the first riot. I really feel for the muslims of australia because they must feel so judged, how can they consider themselves australian if there constantly being bashed by the media and just genrally hated by large groups of people. I find it amazing the threats i get from fathers for being part lebanese, "you better treat my daughter properly, not like a lebanese house wife you hear or I'll be after you" < the father who made this remark thought he was saying nothing wrong what so ever..... I understand anyones concern for a daughter or sister but he didnt see why I got offended and reacted badly indeed, which probley confirmed his theory that im just a filthy lebo. lol Its funny never been seen as dutch, my other half, just lebanese. Even my parents have told me not to tell people I am part lebanese..... My father says "Tell them your just australian because that is what i brought you up as, and stop getting into fights with pll who call you a wog or lebo because you not your australian."

KRPAGE. I am sorry to hear that you have to go through so much. I was born in Spain came to Australia age 2 and married a Lebanese Catholic man 18 years ago. I must say that at the time, even back then, I was worried about how my parents would react because he was Lebanese but they were fine with it. It was actually his parents were against it at the time. Things have worked out fine, he is a very good man.

However now we have children and they are part Lebanese and, like my husband, look of middle eastern appearance. My children have had it tough as we live in the Sutherland Shire. From the moment we moved here were felt the coldness against us. I actually didn't believe my husband at first when he used to tell me about how he was treated as he was such a polite and kind man. I as in for a shock. It was more of an ignoring/exclusion thing but it hurt just as much. In any event we stayed because we are Australian. If I had my time again I would move, my husband says he would stay regardless as he would rather be discriminated against than live in a community/country that stayed the same.

It is true that if you are Lebanese or part Lebanese you cannot call yourself Australian. Everybody says "Just say you are Australian", but nobody will accept it. They always ask for the truth. As if you are lying when you say you are Australian. My children were all born here yet nobody will accept their word when they say that they are Australian.

Of course at the end of the day we are still lucky to be in Australia. The trick is to make sure that things get better as we become wiser - not worse.

Education - Keeping them Honest
http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
OUr children deserve better

Hi KRPAGE....

It might have been me saying the only problem the Christian Lebanese have is Organized crime.. I think you misunderstood me there..or I didn't express myself well....

I was not suggesting they alone have this problem,or that it is proportionatly bigger than for others, I was contrasting the Christian leb community with the Muslim. I'm saying it is their 'only' major problem and of course all other ethnic groups have that same problem.

The Muslim Lebs though (and increasing numbers of Afghans) have this problem mentioned on national TV by a Muslim youth worker (during the Cronulla period) and this is what he said:

1/ Muslim youth feel they are SUPERIOR to Australians
2/ They HATE Western values.

I hope no Christian lebanese feel like that, and I've not seen any evidence of it, but if that is a core value of the Muslims, then its a serious problem and challenge. Remember..it was not 'me' or some white reporter saying that..it was feedback directly from 'the horses mouth'

Lebanese Christian Aussies have fitted in very well, and done very well. I've seen sociology studies which clearly demonstrate this.

Regarding your own struggle.. true friends are not easy to find, but when you do, they are like gold.
With the horrible videos on youtube 'Lebo Thugs'.. it did not help the cause of ANYone looking Lebanese. Have a look at it and you will see what I mean 'Australia..under NEW MANAGEMENT'.. with the lebanese flag superimposed over our map.

This type of problem will not go away quickly. Keep your radar working for decent people to associate with... on every level. There are plenty out there.