Yabby,
Good try!
Are you suggesting the New Europe offers the best opportunity for each person. I'd thought it is merely an economic opportunity for big business.

Are you suggesting that since Australia has almost ousted the Queen for Republicanism we live in a society with better individual fulfilment and opportunity. I'd thought we are governed by economic rationalists allowing big international corporations to organise individuals.

Quote, "Only in America, the most religious country in the West, does religion still play a role. Politicians are not yet free to admit their real religious beliefs, for they would not be elected. But compare say Clinton, with Mullah Bush and the difference is bleeding obvious."

A: Clinton was a Baptist so I'm not sure what you are implying here.

Quote, "Here we have had agnostic Prime Ministers, AFAIK both Keating and Hawke are, Australia still had good governance. So your theory that religion needs to be involved in good governance is out the window."

A: Hawke was the son of a Christian Minister so his social values would have been shaped somewhat by that experience. With Keating I'd not even mention his name as an example of personal virtue. Bill Hayden is a man of good will who learned to respect the role of Westminster Christianity

Serg mate.... you were close...but no cigar... (sorry yabs it was not a 'good' post, it just re-inforced your own prejudices :)

the young virgins were taken under the guidelines laid down under Moses (Deuteronomy) which prevented 'rape' as we understand the term. The ONLY condition whereby an Israelite cold have legal sexual relations with a captive girl was by MARRYING her and that, only after a period of mourning of one month. If she did not please him, (which could be for temperement reasons or whatever) he was under a legal obligation to FREE her to do as she liked !

You may wonder 'How could God instruct the Israelites to execute the Women ..what part did they have in the fighting' ? Well, Mohameds favorite wife Ayesha, was reported to have gone into the battle zone once screaming and yelling to the Muslims to slaughter and kill and chop up the enemy with uparralleled vigour. Judgement was on the whole of the Midianite tribe, the saving of the virgins was a concession.

Now... Yabby (and Serg) one of the problems with making emotive posts about social/political settings of 3000 years ago is that you look rather stupid by applying our own standards of 'The Rule of Law'and international relations to a 'kill or be killed, enslave or be enslaved' socio-political setting of the old days. All you do is demonstrate your lack of understanding or are determined 'not' to understand something totally foreign to your present situation.

I don't mean to insult you in saying this, its just a simple fact.

At the root of it of course is a "I'll find anything I can to justify my rebellion against God" :) right ? yes.. of course it is and you know it.

Well.. GOOD NEWS is that until your last breath.. God has forgiveness waiting for you and now, you have heard that good news.

BOAZ-David

I know we are talking about events a long time ago which should really be irrelevant today but so many people seem to base their whole lives on such things. So exactly what is the difference between raping virgins compared with capturing virgins, forcing marriage then having sexual relations with them? Are they able to refuse marriage or sex and if they are later freed are they then killed as they are no longer virgins? Doesn't sound much like a concession to me. There are probably lots of good Christian things you could use to try to persuade me that the bible is really the word of a kind loving God but this just isn't one of them.

Jeshua
I wish the ID proponents knew as well as you that you can't prove God. The money they put into ID propaganda would have been better spent on medical research and information campaigns, or on earth quake prediction research - areas where their god sure left a lot of work to do.
The Billy Graham story you mention is also known as Pascal's wager. It's not that poeple had nothing to lose. If I were to follow some religion, I'd lose self-respect, especially for submitting to a god that is either weak or cruel or both. I am compassionate, you know.

Philo
The first two sentences of: What makes a society function... sounded exactly like what some islamists are saying of the sharia. No, I don't want religious terror, others telling me that I should comply to their cruel rules because that would be good for me after I'm dead.

Crusader:
I would expect a powerful and loving entity to exert its power and love to help those in need; not because they demand such help, but simply because they suffer, here and now. I can't charge a god for injustice because there is no god, but I can charge preachers for feeding the hungry pie in the sky, and hell in case they doubt.

Dear dreamers, wake up. The world out there isn't very nice, especially since need and compassion are being exploited by religious leaders, but we can try and do our bit.

Philo, Didn't study ancient languages, studied the accepted religious translations, during my religious training. It was after my active service and the example shown by other christians and those purported to represent the faith in the armed services, made me question. Teaming up with the ex Rev, John Cavanagh Phd meritorious, and Fr Ron Cleary Phd (deceased), in their study travels.

Visiting Kashmir, Europe, parts of the middle east in the 70's, seeking out indigenous translators, not those blinded by their faith. In 1992 permission was granted for John to view documents held in Russian, a most enlightening trip. We visited Austria recently to see documents held there.

No doubt about the sincerity of your beliefs, just the history and translations. The man jesus was an enlightened being, during his teens and twenties traveled throughout Asia minor. According to medical, scientific and historical evidence he was nailed to a cross, didn't die but traveled with two women to India. He spent his life in peace attuning himself to understanding the universe, taking the next step in evolutionary progress. An ordinary man enlightened by his realistic experiences, not illusions, hearsay and blind faith.

Anyone reading the true translations without religious indoctrinations, see's they couldn't write religious truth, they didn't understand what was happening, being superstitious and fearful people, like the religious of today. If your god had created this universe in perfection, then there would be no need for technological progress. If your god had lived up to its name as a caring creator, then he would have stopped his followers from destroying his planet If your god was loving he would demand you desist from belittling others that follow him from a different aspect.

You all persist in believing that its all cool to act as you do because you will be forgiven, as a poor bloke died for all your sins. He was strung up, because he didn't realise how much trouble he was causing and suffered at the hands of the law.

It's too easy for us to look at the negative aspects of the Bible. This is what is so true about the Bible as it does not just give us the good but also the bad things that happened due to sin. I think there is a lot of evidence for us to see of the benefits of the gospel that men and women were prepared to venture into untrodden territory because of the good news. This led to the establishment of schools and hospitals and other caring ventures just because people were prepared to trust God and move out in faith to spread the gospel. I think when we look at the positive outcomes, the negatives due to sinful human nature pale into insignificance. I think it is time that we who believe become aggressive and not just defensive in upholding the truths of the gospel otherwise this generation is going to become like Sodom and Gomorrah ( moral degeneration). We can see the signs of it all around us. Lord have mercy on us.

Jeshua