Crusader writes, "The God of Bible has indeed promised a day upon which he will put an end to all suffering and exact his justice. "

Keep telling yourself that, dude. Whatever floats your boat...

Maracas, the point I was making is this:

The American culture and political texture included many aspects which on the surface may have seemed in conflict with the constitution in regards to separation of Church and State, (which I would vigorously argue is NOT the case, based on the document itself and interpretation of the supreme court)

The ACLU has been relentless in seeking to overturn long standing existing practices which harmed no one, but may have not been exactly the flavor of the month for every single citizen. They are targeting anything which relates to Christianity. In this sense, they are seeking to overthrow any connection with the God of the bible and establish their own 'god' of atheism in government. Now, I put it to you that the absence of the Biblical God means the presense of another very real 'god' so to speak, and unrestrained unguided humanity goes after him or is LED after him often without realizing.

PREDICTION.
Due to the above, and the historic example of the gay rights movement, I hereby predict that NAMBLA and the idea of sexual relations between adults and children will be persued with the same methods, the same logic, the same arguments, and the same activism.
Community sentiments will be pressured to change. They will invent a word like 'homophobia' for themselves and accuse all who despise them as being 'that' thing. They will begin to 'out' individuals.

Further, it will gradually gain strength as intellectuals come out with 'Well.. when you think about it, why not' kind of thing. Lack of a moral anchor results in 'make it up as u go' morality.

Mark my words this day.

From http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/1022almanac.htm,
---
" End of the World?
The Great Disappointment (1844)

It was on this date, October 22, 1844, that the world did not end. What may appear obvious at this late date, was believed by about 100,000 followers of Baptist preacher William Miller.
...
...
Pope Innocent III computed the End by adding 666 years onto the date that Islam was founded, arriving at 1284;"
---
A Pope, no less. No further comment

Philo, I think you are pushing your luck if you try to let religion take the credit for the move forward by the West. It was the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, called the dark ages, which held up progress and free thought for eons. The protestants were not as bad, but still in 1930 they were claiming about the evils of contraception etc.

Separating religion from govt was really the breakthrough. Science
blossomed despite religion, not because of it. Darwin for instance, was not exactly celebrated by the church.

The world has changed Philo, get used to it. The internet is changing the world too. People are better informed, have easy access to information like never before. People are not as gullible as they used to be. No wonder the Catholics are turning to Africa for
followers, people are less educated and less informed there.

The future lies in reason and education, not in fear and holy books.
Teach kids about ethics and philosophy at school, not about burning forever if they misbehave.

Crusader, I employed a born again once. She was driven by hope of not really dying and fear of judgment day. I told her that I was born ok the first time :) If I had my time over, I'm 53 now,
I would most likely start a cult or religion. Look at what happened to the Bagwhan and all he claimed to be was a philosopher :)

Which version of the 3600 versions of the bible do some of you lot believe, most of it is a fairy story made up as it was needed,If you want to believe it fine but please dont try and force it on to me,have any of you watched the US evangelicals on TV, look at these people no wonder con men do so well, some one once said "theres one born every minute" and these so called churches are full of em

Yabby,
You like most atheist believe secularism is the absence or even the denial of God from Government. I suggest you read our Australian constitution and see if the concept of God is missing. I know Republicans want to introduce a constitution that removes God as do the Greens from Members saying prayers in halls of Government.

However secular means attending to the physical needs of a people in contrast to the needs of the spirit. It means that those administering Government can no longer administer affairs within the Church, and establish Church law. It does not mean the values held by religious people no longer apply to the State.

If you believe that only the values held by atheists apply in the making of State law then you are mistaken. The seperation of Church and State was initially applied so that a secular government were not administering laws over the conscience of the Church. However the conscience of members in Government applied when they formulated State laws. Read the religious beliefs of the founders of our Federation - hardly atheists.

All good society and Government operates on respect and devotion to a higher power and has no divided allegiance, does not place devotion to materialism as the highest goal of humanity, shows compassion and love to those of genuine need, does not abuse power or wraught the system, takes time off for relaxation and contemplation and allows workers the same, respects the elderly and provides for them in their aged years, does not plan revenge or carry out murder, does not indulge in indiscriminate sex ouside a commited relationships, does not steal give short change or supply defective weights or products. Does not deceive of falsely assuse, or covet others property. Sound familiar - its the basis of a religious text upon which a religious society was founded.

Atheist have tried to have these principles removed from display in halls of law and power in the USA. I have yet to see a society governed by atheists to provide the best for all people. Please give examples!