Mathew S... I don't think Saudi is denying women education any longer although I can't be sure on that for the whole of Saudi. Perhaps Waleed would know. What I do know is that they cannot vote and I do not understand why there aren't western muslim groups lobbying for reform in that area (there are certainly muslims inside those countries trying to get reform). In fact, what I don't get is why muslims are always going on about how Islam is pro womens equality but don't seem to be very vocal on issues like voting rights in those countries like Saudi, the Gulf etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong but instead of Islamic groups in the West promoting modernisation in suppressed muslim countries, all I see is the promotion of further fundamentalisation. Maybe it's just that the fundies are getting more airplay.

I wonder if we In Australia will ever see an Islamic community demonstration outside the Saudi/Pakistani embassy demanding the end to FGM/vani/voting.

Hamlet and Maximus

Well, what a learning curve for me. Clearly I have been listening to the wrong people, and reading the wrong literature. I have since read material that you both espouse. Frankly, I am shocked beyond belief.

I had no idea about the role of women in this autrocity. My apologies for my ignorance. Life is too short - but never too short to learn something new, and consider another viewpoint. Thank you.

RObert

As usual, thank you for your usual even handed approach to emotive issues.

Thanks fellas
Cheers
Kay

Waleed Ali's articles are always typically defensive, as are every Muslim who writes articles about Islam sadly. I suppose if one feels that their identity is under attack one subconciously is programmed to defend it, however weak their posistion.

However, in this article Ali has made some critical errors. Islam, unfortunately, and this isn't to say it's only Islam that treats women bad (why do non-Muslims feel that we must categorically say that we know it's not all Muslims, and so on, that do bad things? Perhaps because when someone attacks a Muslim radical, ALL Muslims feel offended or whine that we are offending them all?) has a long history of this type of treatment against women.

For Ali to argue it's tribal is rubbish. Most of these gang rape victims are sentenced by tribal elders yes, but in SHARIA COURTS WALEED!

Why did he leave this out? Likely they've misinterpreted Islam though right? Aren't we sick of hearing that one! Is Sheik Hilali, the leader of Islam in Australia, un-Islamic for praising terrorism? If so, why haven't Muslims protested he step down?

Look, women were treated crappy in the west too. It was only 40 years ago that white men grew up. I can't see this happening though in the Arab, or Pakistani world in the future.

I sincerly believe that the west needs to force our values on them, as our values are universal. To live in a backward tribal system is fine, but now you guys are getting your hands on western weapons so must be dealt with. The west can't allow inferior cultures (yes I don't subscribe to the nonsense that all cultures are equal. Neither does anyone else, that is why they all flock to western nations).

Sorry, I can't let the stuff on female genital mutilation go unchallenged.
Yes, women carry out the procedure on 6 year old girls, but they do it because of a belief that the girls will not get a husband if they are left uncircumcised.
The women who are currently touring Africa with a play trying to end the practice show the play to both men and women to encourage them to spare their daughters. The play features an imaginary tribe that cut off women's left legs to make them more sexually attractive to the scorn, disbelief and hilarity of the audience, they then slowly reveal that this is a metaphor for female circumcision.
There is also nothing new about the oppressed meeting out the oppression. Black slave units fought for the Confederates in the American Civil War, Jewish boards of deputies selected the Jews for transportation in the Warsaw ghetto. Yet no-one in their right mind would argue that Jews, not Germans, were the oppressors in WW2, or that black slaves were the oppressors in the slave states of the South, so lets not do the same with women, either.

With Enaj on this - I often wonder why some women involve themselves in acts like FGM. As Enaj has pointed there is an all too human pattern of behaviour in the victims siding with their oppressors.

Possibly power has a lot to do with this - side with the winners.

I am concerned at some of the posters comments stating that Waleed should stick to Muslim topics - I find this ironic considering that the same posters complain about Muslims not integrating.

Here Waleed has touched on an issue that effects us all.

I understand that many men may feel neglected as they too have suffered from DV. I agree that there is a need for more social awareness and support in this area.

I, have suffered from 8 years of DV too. However, I do not blame the entire male sex for the abuse I received.

I have also been victimised by female bullies in the workplace. This is why I have no trouble believing the men who have posted here. However, my experience in learning martial arts has been interesting because I found it very difficult as did many other women in learning to attack and spar with another person. Hitting just doesn't really come naturally. I am still much more adept at defence rather than offence.

Humans will intimidate others using the easiest strategies - while I am sure that some women do hit their partners, the percentage would be lower than for males. Women tend to bully by psychological means.

Nonetheless, DV is a problem for us all. In many developing countries, as Waleed has pointed out, women are still treated as chattel.

Societies where women are treated as equals tend to be more civilised than those where women are marginalised.

Waleed is courageous for speaking out. Instead of complaining about who is the biggest victim, we need to unite against discrimination of anyone be it for their sex, colour, race or religion.

enaj, have you considered (or are you willing to) consider the possibility that this is more of an all of culture issue. Even with a relatively brief survey of material that was something that stuck out very clearly except on the most hard core of feminist sites.

Women have come to believe that FGM is important for their identity and coming of age. It does not appear to just an issue of eligibility for marriage but something much deeper. Trying to simplify it to a "men oppressing women" thing really is not doing justice to the complexity of the issue. I have no idea how the practice started but it is clear that support for it's ongoing nature is not gender oppression, rather a sign of cultures which have incorporated a very sick and sad practice.

I see it as a very nasty and hardcore version of requirements that women dress modestly advocated by some in our culture. Certainly not something I personally favour. My impression is that women are just as much a part of pushing that type of viewpoint as men. For some it is part of their culture, how they think things should be.

For reference for those looking to do some Muslim bashing the former paragraph was written considering Christain ideas's of modesty, after writing it I thought of the young girls pushing to be allowed to wear head coverings at school and how much that appears to tie in with sense of identity and the like.

You might also consider who does the pushing for young girls to get piercings for jewelery, a much less severe form of mutilation seen by some as making women more attractive to men. Are teenage girls with multiple piercings a sign of oppression by men or just people expressing their identity and sense of belonging to a particular cultural grouping?

R0bert