If the trading and maltreatment of women is “appallingly un-Islamic , where did the idea come from? We are told that all manner of things are ‘against Islam’, but people still perform disgusting acts in the name of Allah.

If vani is against the law in Pakistan, what else is to blame but Islam?

What tosh Leigh. Appalling treatment of women is a global thing, not an 'Islamic' or 'Pakistani' thing. Look at the women being sold as brides/sex slaves in China. Not an Islamic country. Look at the child brides in Indigenous Australian culture. Not Islamic. The rape of children in Sub-Saharan Africa to supposedly rid men of AIDS. Not Islamic. Sexist and out-dated notions of 'owning' women exist in far too many cultures, and we should be concerned about all of them, not just those who may be trying to justify their behaviour though religion.

A really great article to celebrate this important day and those who are standing up to medieval practices that hurt women and their families (which include men). I can only imagine what this family are going through. Thankyou Waleed for drawing our attention to this hero and his daughters from Pakistan.

Laurie,

Sure, abuse of women is global. And, I did not say in was particularly Islamic. Waleed Aly made the statement that it is un-Islamic. Islam is clearly a religion which has been traditionally male-dominated, treating women as chattels. People other than me believe this. I am giving Waleed Aly the chance to prove me wrong.

Can you comment on this matter, please? If you can’t, I must take your post for what it seems to be: mere disagreement with my opinion and, perhaps, showing a lack of understanding of what I wrote. If I have been too arcane in this instance, I’ll try to make it simpler for you in the future.

Leigh, you asked "where did the idea come from?" as though it could ONLY have come from Islam. While I certainly accept that there are many Quranic scriptures which do denigrate women, I was pointing out to you that your inference that it could only be Islam to blame was incorrect, that the maltreatment of women has been a global phenomenon. Many disgusting acts have been in the name of all gods at different times, in the name of kings, and of countries.

Further, you asked "If vani is against the law in Pakistan, what else is to blame but Islam?"- gee, I don't know? Maybe historical patriarchal structures which regard women as mere chattels? While religion certainly plays into these structures, I was using examples from across the globe to demonstrate that it is hardly a situation limited to one country or one belief system.

Gotta love how these women as perpetual victim articles constantly fly behind a thinly veiled message of 'man bad.'

Interestingly, literally 100s of surveys and research findings out of western first world nations clearly demonstrate that domestic violence is fairly evenly matched between men and women. l am keenly aware that this factual statement flies in the face of the propgan... er l mean received conventional wisdom. lf you dont believe it do a google search, the truth is out there. In fact now, under the much expanded defionition of domestic violence/abuse, emotional and psychological abuse constitutes violence. That alone brings a sizeable portion of women into the net of being labelled as domestically violent.

l know this could be construed as a 'personal issue' ... whatever. l seriously doubt any real inroads will ever be made into this stuff until the whole gender war angle is removed from the way this stuff is projected into public consciousness.

Interesting, that in the face of western realities, the ideological pundits turn to the rest of the world to keep their perpetual campaigns of discontent going. There is too much rubbish in our own backyard to cast aspersions on our neighbours. This article is thoroughly disengenuous and has little real interest in solving a problem.

Next.

Wasn't there recently some old aboriginal man who got almost no jail at all after anally penetrating a sixteen-year-old girl in a remote northern territory location?

The Court, an Australian Court! said that he should receive a punishment in his culture, effectively he's almost free.

Where's the justice for the victim in this.

Waleed

Thank you for your post on "White Ribbon Day".

But gosh, you moderates will do anything to shift the focus off Islam. You seem to use anything - any red herring that you can. Why didn't you continue on about the ways in which Islam treats women. Why didn't you speak about one the most barbaric domestic violence issues of all - female clitoridectomy!!

I was a victim of alcoholic bashing by a white Australian for 13 years. He finally ended up in Her Majesty's Hotel. I spent the next 7 years on my own, trying to learn how to be "normal". I thought that I met the right bloke. He was a high flying lawyer of Aboriginal heritage. I only coped with his mental abuse for 5 months.

Yes, it's everywhere! There is no excuse for pysical abuse - no matter what the religion or culture.

And to the last poster "Inner etc" - you are spot on!

Traditional Aboriginal culture may be no less barbaric than Islam - but at least they own this land and their culture. Let's deal with that as a priority.

Thanks
Kay

Waleed, a great article. I agree with most of it. At the same time I find myself cringing because of the total lack of acknowledgement that the stats for DV in this country show that overall men and women hit each other within the family at very similar rates. Women sustain serious injury at a higher rate, but not so much higher as to exclude serious injury to men from discussion.

We abuse our kids at similar rates for the proportion of time in care. The kind of phrasing you use paints the issue as a genderised one when in this country, and the US and Britian it is clearly not. I've posted some references to reliable proofs of parts of this before http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3268#5220 .

The impression I've got is that those who refuse to accept this eventually get down to being unwilling to accept it because it does not sit with their experience or perceptions. Others won't accept it because it is really important for the man to be the strong one. As has been shown through history violence is more about a willingness to use it than raw strength.

What percentage of men are hit by a women during or after a relationship or sometime during their lives? Anybody really confident that the level of violence for most is massively different to that experienced by women or that the emotional turmoil and fear of where it will lead is a lot less than that experienced by women? OK I know some are confident of the above but I'm hoping others will think about this honestly.

Lets work to stamp out all forms of family violence and abuse regardless of the gender of the perpetrator or the gender of the victim. There may be reasons why in some cultures and cultural groupings the issue is more genderised than it is for most of the australian community - some of the stuff refered to in the opening section of the article but those factors are not the reality for most of the Australian community.

R0bert

It wasn't that long ago that domestic violence was known as 'violence against women'. Now the wheel has turned and there is a grudging acknowledgement that men can also be victims.

I live in a violent relationship. When my wife is on a binge she becomes abusive and violent. This can take many forms, the following are my wife's specialities:

Depriving me of sleep on work nights by yelling and screaming until three a.m. (She doesn't work).

Threatening to call the police and make false allegations against me. This is especially harmful as for the past eight years I have worked in jobs where an AVO, even if unfounded or withdrawn, would have lead to immediate dismissal.

I have had to wrestle knives out of her hands when she has tried to stab me, or to slash herself, whilst all the time being careful that she is not injured. She has threatened to destroy items of value to me. She has kicked, punched, bitten and scratched. I have been hit with a bottle and had my genitals attacked.

We are well known to the local constabulary, whom I have the greatest amount of admiration for. I am the one who has been offered the assistance of the Domestic Violence Liaison Officer.

The police have taken her away on occasion, she generally finishes up at a hospital and when she settles down I get a phone call to come and pick her up. That is, to bring home my own abuser. If I was to act in the way that she acted I would not go to hospital, I would be in a cell.

Whilst domestic violence is primarily perpetrated by men against women, that is not the sole form, for instance the frequency and type of violence in lesbian relationships approaches that of heterosexual relationships.

The person who is most likely to harm or kill a child is that child's mother.

I resent White Ribbon Day, mainly because it only calls an end to violence against women and children, implying by omission that violence against men is okay.

Wasn't there recently some old aboriginal man who got almost no jail at all after anally penetrating a sixteen-year-old girl in a remote northern territory location?
@Inner-Sydney based transsexual, indigent outcast progeny of merchant family.

Do you have to be so graphic about it.

This "un-Islamic" practice is just one more of the many very "Islamic" practices that denigrate women. As usual, Muslims want to generalize or ignore the issue.

Yes, everywhere, in every society, domestic violence is a problem. Most of all, however, it is an Islamic problem. There is no other group on earth that abuses women more than Islam does. Where Islam dominates women suffer (and other groups also, but that is another issue).

Female Genital Mutilation, beatings and abuse, rape, kidnappings, honor killings, poligamy, arranged marriages, forced marriages, child marriage, brutal servitude, denial of education, lack of freedoms and basic rights, inferior legal status, etc... The list goes on and on, and most of it comes directly from the Quran and Islam’s great prophet.

I won’t even bother to quote from the Quran and hadiths, or give references to Mohammed beating is own wife or to the disgusting things these said about women (Unless, of course, some Muslim has any doubts!).

Like so many writings by our Muslim friends here at OLO, this is just another superficial treatment of a very serious problem, without any real attempt to understand it or seek the source of the problem, as least as it relates to Muslims and Islam. It is the same treatment they give to the issues of terror and the oppression that is rampant in Islamic societies – They never ever ask “why”. Why?

Kactuzkid

Amel, I'm not being graphic, certainly not gratuitous either. I'm being realistic. How else can I convey the gravity of the man's offence and the moral turpitude of his actions? It's what happened, its on the record and in the public domain. I got my facts in the public domain.

Inner etc.,

yes it is in fact true, to an extent, however you missed that she was also brutally bashed with a boomerang, and that he was found to be criminally responsible of a lesser offence on the basis that he did not realise that his action was wrong.

The girl was purportedly his traditional wife, and the community supported his actions. The larger community in NT did not, and consequently the Criminal Code is being amended. I feel that this is about time, as it has occurred before.

Hamlet, I feel for you. I am wondering why you stay? Kids, gender biased family law, sense of loyalty or do the good times seem to outweigh the bad times.

My ex only hit sometimes - generally I think it was a technique to escaliate an argument. Stage one name calling, stage two threats, stage three punching. Plenty of emotional tirades at night etc but especially the night before a uni exam or on the weekend when I had to finish a major uni assignment.

I stayed because I had made a vow "for better or worse" and because I had an inkling of the bias in the practice of family law. I didn't want to become a 20% dad. I'd seen what some of her friends had done to ex's and their kids in search of the mighty welfare and C$A dollar.

Nowhere in the counselling we did or post seperation mediation has any "family" professional made a clear statement against female initiated family violence. They all appear to be so tied up in the "its a male thing" that they refuse to acknowledge that it happens the other way. No wonder stats collected from such groups show a gender bias, it'd be like asking some of the extremist posters in these forums to collect stats on good muslims vs good christians. If there is any acknowedgment then they assume it was justified - she was upset and angry so that is OK. It is never OK.

Hamlet, if you can get out without kids being harmed (more than they will be by staying) do so, no one should live with ongoing abuse - man, woman or child.

R0bert

RObert

I stay because I choose to, no martyrs here, only volunteers. We are blessed in not having kids.

You said:

"Plenty of emotional tirades at night etc but especially the night before a uni exam or on the weekend when I had to finish a major uni assignment."

I wonder if my wife and yours learnt their techniques at the same 'school'. It was precisely the same for me, before uni exams and assignments, yes, and also when I was going for job interviews. I have learnt not to tell her of anything important that may be happening that doesn't directly involve her, until after it happens. When I got a new job I only tld her the night before I started, and that was probably a mistake. It is as if she does not wish me to be able to improve my life; I think that you probably understand.

And yes, through all the counselling everything was always my fault, so I can relate to your experiences. This is how institutions that are meant to help collude to enable violence to occur. I have been very fortunate to have worked with some very understanding people.

No one deserves violence or abuse in their lives, women, men, children. Another form of relationship violence that is not often aknowledged is violence by children, males and females, against parents.

No relationship violence is acceptable.

Gee....
it seems there are some very hurt and scarred people here.. Hamlet and Robert, maybe more. We all have scars.. some are not the physical kind, but I have to commend you guys for not hitting back, against those who attack you.

It would not surprise me if a significant number of the reported 'male perpetrators' are in fact 'male self defenders' where in fact, the woman being the initiator simply didn't count on 'him' being able to deal with her in a physical manner. Or.. (and I suspect this is more accurate) she does realize, but continues anyway in some deep seated yet twisted desire to be punished, or to confirm her own sense of guilt or worthlessness or even to confirm her misguided ideas about 'him' ? I'm sure there are many permutations.

Hamlet, you mentioned that you are involved in the Sydney Anglican scene.. have you considered the Biblical approach ? Matthew 18.15 ?
I know there are limitations to how much one can apply such in a marraige because when you let others know, it can compound an already bad situation.

How did this begin ? Were there any signs prior to marraige ? Was there some particular trigger point or issue ? What about extended family .. can they help ? Is there any indication of her behavior being medically related ? Did someone she respected let her down ?

Prayer, and building up your own relationship with the Lord will make a huge difference, at least to your own strength level to cope, and maybe even influence her moods.

Don't mean to be nosy, but you put it here and its difficult not to want to share in some helpful manner...
Matt 11:28 would be most relevant to you now.
Cheers to all.

I am the father of two beautiful vibrant daughters and I am dreading the day I expose them to the risk of men.

Hamlet....you can't help them who don't help themselves (faith or no faith), and I put it to you that by choosing to stay with your abusive partner, you are exactly the opposite to the brave individuals who are fighting repression in the article.

Violence against family is not an just an Islamic practice, though male dominance is part of that tradition.
Family violence is apparent in every society and is often the realm of the cowardly bully who has expectations that the world owes him much.
It was in my family. A father who could not control his drinking, who had to be totally avoided until he had fallen asleep because at a certain stage he became aggressive towards who ever got in his way.
People who commit violence are cowards.People who commit violence are bullies. And no amount of psychobabble will excuse their yellow spines.

Hamlet

Your post reminded me so much (sadly) of rampart feminists with whom I have worked. They do not countenance that women can be "bashers".

Yes, I agree. The Feminist Lesbian Movement has a lot to answer for. As a psych nurse of some 30 years, I could not believe their violence. Even worse than my previous bashing husband.

I agree with RObert - get out. You are not helping anyone - let alone yourself. Get out and help youself. I did. See above. Have now been happily married for the past 10 years. My husband and I have a wonderful life.

I wish you well.

And to the cynics domestic violence occurs across all religions and cultures. I know. I have nursed or counselled them for the past 30 years.

Elderly verbal and financial abuse is rife.

Regards
Kay

Michael Duffy reported on a study showing that social workers had a grossly inflated idea of how often fathers hit and sexually abused their children. In "Reality check on anti-fatherhood theory" Courier Mail 15/5/99, Duffy said half of 313 family social workers surveyed by the Dept. of Family and Community believed that up to a quarter of all fathers physically abused their children. Almost a third believed the same percentage sexually abused their children. "The people conducting the survey did a reality check on these responses, asking a large number of randomly selected children aged 5 to 11 if they had been abused. The proportion which had? One percent". But, "When then-Family Services Minister Rosemary Crowley was questioned about the validity of the one-in-three claim she replied, "why are you worried about a little bit of wrong analysis?""

The reason we should all be worried about it came home to me recently when my brother went through a difficult divorce where he was clearly being goaded to hit a wife who was obviously well briefed on tactical matters. He had twice broken his own hand by punching walls rather than his tormenter. He finally decided to get out when he realised that he was being driven to self mutilation. But before leaving he pushed her out of bed and this triggered the whole Aprehended Violence farce. Taking out an AVO is now standard operating procedure to enable the wife to retain possession of the family home.

The entire system has been designed to deal with a grossly exaggerated situation and can only ever amount to a disproportionate treatment of men by the system. Little wonder there are more complaints about family law than any other field. False statements and malicious acts in bad faith that would render the protagonist in contempt of a normal court are tollerated in family law. It is as if the whole body of rights and obligations have been subordinated to some sort of divine right of women to demonstrate that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. You are a disgrace, sisters.

Persius - female here. I agree.

BD, your faith in my strenght of character is unfortunately slightly inflated. On one occasion I did try hitting back - two light open handed slaps. I have mixed feelings about doing so, mostly shame.

It was a deliberate attempt to try and stop the hitting and if that logic seems twisted to readers I can only say I was desperate and not coping well at the time. My ex totally failed to make any kind of connection between the violence she was dishing out and my response. Many of our friends and family were rung and informed that I had assaulted her, somehow slipped her mind to mention that she had punched me first on that occasion and previous fights. A doctor was visited to get a record of bruises (there were none from the slaps so I don't know what he was shown).

If it is any comfort to those who would judge me by that one action I would like to point out that during an argument which followed a month or so later I was punched 6 to 8 times and did not return the violence, nor ever again.

My reason for sharing this. I value truth and BD made a mistaken claim which my silence would have made a lie of. I also have some hope that my story will give a bit of understanding of one the consequences of the lack of publicity about violence against men. Guys who are on the receiving end often have nowhere to turn, no idea how to get it to stop.

The person initiating the violence has no clear message comming from society that what they are doing is wrong, if anything the message is one of justification. Your smaller you would not have really hurt him anyway, you must have been really upset etc.

R0bert

While admiring the courage of Jehan Khan Niazi I hope that if for example one of his daughters wished to marry a non Muslim (forbidden under Muslim law, a man may marry a Jew or Christian but a women can only marry a Muslim)that he would have the courage to say that: I have educated you daughter and I respect your choice.

However, such a choice would be too much to ask somebody living in Pakistan but if he was living in Australia I hope he would respect his daughter's right to marry whom-so-ever she choose. Sadly however, experience shows that such courage is not often found among Muslims living in the West--would that it were different.

Waleed Aly has tried the most tired and unclever ploy,if the untidiness of your own backyard is about to be revealed,shoot the messenger by tarring others with your own foibles.

Several points: There is an old saying about walking a mile in a man's shoes....

I thank those who have recommended that I leave my wife, however I have only given a sketch of the overall situation: I have not mentioned the threats to harass me, my family and my work if I was to leave her. I have not mentioned the good chance that I would be left with virtually nothing if I left, and at almost 50 it would be harder to start again, in terms of finances, employment and accommodation, than live in hope, and that I would not risk repartnering.

To Whattha, and your comment about your daughters and men. I am sorry that you feel that way, but with your attitude it is likely that they would never have to experience men as partners at all, but just remember that lesbian relationships are just as violent.

Boaz_David, yes, I have considered the Matthew 18:15 passage, and yes, the people at the church that I attend have been very supportive.

I don’t excuse the violence that men can perpetrate; I only ask that women’s violence be acknowledged. The standard response the women’s violence, as espoused by Relationships Australia and other organisations, is that when a man gets pushed to his limit he should simply take time out, to take a walk, to get away.

There is no mention of the responsibility of women.

The response that a man should take a walk, go for a jog, spend the night at a friend’s place, or find an open motel, is a good and appropriate one. I have spent hours sitting in the car, or in a neighbour’s spare bed, waiting for the right time to go home.

There is no excuse for man to be violent towards a woman or a child. Understanding, yes, excuse, no. It is better for a man to be violent to himself than to provide a woman with an excuse for her own abusive actions and violence.

There is no cultural excuse for domination or exercise of power in relationships either.

Hamlet

I truely despair for you and other men in your predicament. I still say - leave.

So what if you lose financially? Better that than your mental health. You clearly have no quality of life. I spent 13 years terrified and hiding - holding down a full time job and tertiary studies (external mode) - whilst he did not work. Like you, I spent many nights in cars and other people's homes. I purchased 10 cars in 13 years because he smashed them all up when he was drink driving.

When the knife came out, that was it for me. He was a liar and a bludger - and oh so charismatic. He did not work, and only had $3000 equity on our home. I was the one with the morgage. He played the game of disability - supported by his stupid GP. The Family Law Court ordered me to pay him maintenance until he reached 65 years. What a joke. I paid him three years in advance. Last I heard he was living in Her Majesty's Hotel for 13 drink driving charges.

My solicitor suggested that I move overseas because of his violence. I could not do that, but I did move to another state. He harrassed me for a while at my workplace. My boss pissed him off.

I lost the house because I could not pay his half out - even though his only input was $3000!

What the heck? I later met a wonderful man. We celebrate our 10th Wedding Anniversary next year. He left his previous marriage with an eski. We are very happy. You can do it too.

Mental health is far more important than anything material. And mental health includes loving and being loved. I do not detect same in your posts.

Yes, it's about time that Domestic Violence Counsellors (usually radical leftist Lesbian Feminists)stand up to account for the damage that they have done to male victims of domestic violence.

Good luck mate
Kay

G'day All

Any of you read this?

HERALD SUN
Police told to respect traditions
Liam Houlihan, religious affairs reporter
25oct05

POLICE are being advised to treat Muslim domestic violence cases differently out of respect for Islamic traditions and habits.

Officers are also being urged to work with Muslim leaders, who will try to keep the families together.

Women's groups are concerned the politically correct policing could give comfort to wife bashers and keep their victims in a cycle of violence.

The guide also advises officers not to hold interviews with Aboriginal suspects or set court hearings during Aboriginal ceremonies involving "initiation, birth, death, burials, mourning periods, women's meetings and cultural ceremonies in general".

They are told to interview Baha'i suspects only after sunset in the fasting month.

And they are cautioned that when a Sikh is reading the Sikh Holy Script -- a process that normally takes 50 hours -- "he should not be disturbed"

They are warned that taking photos or samples from Aboriginal suspects could raise fears they could be used for sorcery and spiritual mischief.

Go to this link....http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage/0,5481,17026063,00.html

To read the whole article it may not be active but I've saved it if any of my fellow 'racists and islamophobes' want a copy then write to me here carnifexmaximvs@yahoo.co.uk may take a few days to get back to you but I will.

I'd love to get a copy of that booklet.

Its good to see men here posting about the reality of a womans gentle, kind, caring and nurturing sides. The fem propaganda has flown for so long now its almost like beleiving in the racial inferiority the flew back in 1930s Europe. The political ideologues have done a stellar job in promoting lies. If it were not for the internet what voice would the silent majority ever get to express. The mainstream media just pumps out a view that supports the status quo.

In any event any man who has had anything of an experience with women outside of fairytale story books knows the truth, even if no one wants to hear it. Ah, well, l put it down to the reality of being a man living in a man's world... which essentially means "take it liek a man (shut up and dont complain). Like Warren Farrel says "women cant hear what men dont say". It seems to me these days that not only can women not hear what we dont say but they dont really want to hear it. Their silence on these matters is deafening.

A couple of interesting realities emerge from domestic violence against men and the stacked family courts. Firstly, cut your losses early. At the first sign of violence (including psychological and emotional)... end the relationship and find someone who respects you. Its easier to recover sooner than later. Secondly, dont let the fear of retribution and financial rape stop you. There are many things one can do to prepare for a divorce to ensure you get out with a fair and reasonable share of your own legacy. Start with a search on divorce tactics. Many books have been written. The ones targeted to women certainly dont pull their punches. They are useful in learning what you may anticipate and also very useful in determining tactics you may use.

Men, dont take the abuse. Stand up for yourself. Make a better life for yourself and confront the truth about your virtual enslavement to the whims of those with deep problems. If she has more issues than a magazine rack there is pretty much nothing you can do beyond getting a phd in mental therapy and spemding a lifetime bogged down in playing captain free therapist.

Move on brothers.

Hamlet, can I add to the view that staying there longer does not put you in a better position unless you are absolutely sure you can cop this for the rest of your life and that she will stay for the rest of hers. Unless there is a massive change to the implementation of family law (for the better) then staying just gives you less time to move on later. If you do reach breaking point and do harm yourself then you end up in an even worse position. Only you and your wife can make decisions about staying in that marriage but please don't assume that you will be better off financially tied to an abusive spouse. How much better off will you be if ever you fail to get that knife away from her? Worse yet what if you slip and cut her with it while trying to disarm her?

Repartnering is hard, there are good women out there, the tricky bit for us is working out which ones they are. There are no easy answers and no guarantee's.

For myself I found myself becoming something I did not like in the face of constant pressure and abuse. The obsenity of the family law system has made life harder than it needs to be but it's still generally a lot better than living with an abusive spouse.

Whatever you choose, good luck and best wishes.

Kay, thanks for your great input to this. You seem to have a good nature.

For others please take care not to turn this into a female bashing session. There are planty of women out there who've done enormous wrong in this but there are also plenty of guys who do wrong that is just as severe. It's not a gender problem, it is a human problem and the prolonged finger pointing just delays finding effective ways of dealing with it.

R0bert

Phew! Thanks Robert for pointing out that violence is a human issue, not necessarily a gender one.
Nevertheless, may I remind some of the more mysogynistic posters here that Waleed is talking about a very real, gender based problem in much of the world. There is simply no argument that women and children, but especially female children, in the third world suffer a greater degree of violence and aggression at the hands of people who are meant to protect them. Female circumcision, for example, is a brutal practice with lifetime health consquences for millions of women in Africa and parts of Asia. There is simply no male equivalent to this. It is also worth remembering that the saying "rule of thumb" comes from the English common law dictum that a man could beat his wife as long as he used an implement no thicker than his thumb.
While individual men may well be victims of individual women, violence against them by their wives has never been enshrined in law, this must be taken into account when we discuss this issue. Nowhere are men promised to women as sexual sacrifices in payment of female debts, nowhere are boys killed because they have lost their virginity and so besmirched the families honour. Nowhere are men required to cover every part of their face before going outside or banned from school and work on the basis of their gender.
Waleed is absolutely right when he argues that violence against women also damages men, wherever it occurs. There was a study done recently ( and I am sorry I can't give you links or references) that showed men in countries that routinely oppressed women - like Pakistan - have shorter life spans than men in countries that don't. And this was regardless of their poverty, wealth or general health.
Violence is always wrong, but there is and always has been systemic and legally and religiously sanctioned violence by men against women and that is the difference.

RObert

Thanks mate. I have felt this way all of my nursing career - nothing new for me. In mental health nursing I have seen all sides of the coin. I have been an advocate for Mens' Rights for years - to no avail.

Enaj, I know that you hold very strong feminist values, and I usually respect the way that you present your ideas. You are always articulate. Even so, I found the last sentence of your last post very dated.

I really do get sick and tired of women (not necessarily you) blaming men for just about anything - including being alive. These days it seems that women even blame men for impregnating them (the women).

Enaj, when I was savagely bashed and raped by two men, the greatest help I recieved was from male police persons and my male friends. They wanted to talk about it with me. They wanted to help me express my feelings. They all demonstrated their shame that the perpetrators could have done same to me. They all expressed shame for being male.

My female friends did not want to talk about it. They sent heaps of flowers - so much so that my home looked like a funeral parlour. My female friends could not talk about it because I represented what they knew could happpen to them (or anyone else for that matter) - and they could not face that. They could not cope with my honesty.

My female counsellor was a great help (cynical comment). After every session she said something along the lines of: "You teach me so much". Spare me!

My experience as a victim of wife bashing and then rape bashing has made me a very strong woman (sadly). I became a better psych nurse than I could have ever imagined. I started to write a book, but my family remain ashamed of my experiences. Sad eh?

Go Hamlet. Go RObert.

Regards
Kay

@Kalweb
I must say,you're a brave and courageous woman. Not everyone can come out and speak about a horrible experience.

Enjay writes "there is no argument, etc..."

I disagree. There is argument about the matters raised. For example, female circumcision is conducted and condoned by tribal women to their girls. This is a women's issue. Why are men being blamed for it? And is not the surgical removal of the foreskin of a penis not a male equivilent?

The myth of "rule of thumb" as described is just that, a silly myth.
Ref - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb

Men may not be offered as sexual payment of debts, but men were and still are held accountable (even in many Western countries today) for a wife's debt, with penalties including custodial sentences.

Boys are often killed, murdered, mutilated for besmirching family honour in many parts of the world, and for transgressing the honour of another's family, particularly that of its womenfolk. It's called tribal justice.

Even in the Western world today, men are expected to wear certain styles of clothing, facial hair, silly hats and other paraphenalia to satisfy social and religious codes.

Lifespan is dependent upon an enormous number of factors. Generally speaking, quality and quantity of food, water, education and health systems have the most significant effects. Those factors are generally worse in the the Third World nations mentioned.

The statement "there is and always has been systemic and legally and religiously sanctioned violence by men against women" I respectfully suggest is bunkum, and should read - there is and always has been systemic and legally and religiously sanctioned violence by authorities and the state against humanity, especially men.

Women do not hold a monopoly on global victimhood and the entire concept of White Ribbon Day is a sexist fraud aimed at shaming men and driving a wedge between the sexes for the purpose of destroying trust between men and women and ultimately breaking up marriages as directed by the Marx Manifesto of 1848.

In fact I argue that White Ribbon Day and the writing of Waleed Aly in these pages stand as a covert act of violence against humanity and all men in particular.

I am not big on conspiracy theories. I tend to believe that individuals will seek power in relationships, whether those relationships are with other individuals, or with nations.

I see violence as a manifestation as that quest for power, whether in war or in the home. Some forms of violence are justified, such as the use of police powers to deal with crime, or the defensive use of military force.

I don’t see any feminist or lesbian cabal trying to put men down, or destroy families. I see people trying to deal with violence in ways that are not necessarily helpful for all the people involved.

I can see a history of inequality in some areas, such as women being seen as the property of men, with no rights of property ownership and no control over their own bodies. This inequality has not yet ended, with some men still feeling that they ‘own’ their female partners and daughters.

But what I am saying is that individuals should now be treated equally regardless of gender or of sexual inclination. Courts have ordered men to undergo anger therapy management courses prior to sentencing for domestic violence offences. I am not aware of similar courses being required of women.

A police officer has told me that no magistrate would ever make a DVO or AVO against my wife because she would be seen as a woman with an illness, that is a borderline personality disorder and alcohol dependence. There would be no such reluctance in the case of a male.

And this partly answers why I stay. We talk about people taking their citizenship vow seriously, to uphold their end of the social contract. I would say the same about the marriage vow. I know that the idea of the ‘marriage contract’ is long gone, but I still consider that, for me, the vow including the words ‘in sickness and in health’ apply. I would not seek to imply that others should be kept to that, but as long as I am able to deal with her sickness I will stay.

Thanks for your contribution, Kalweb, live long and prosper. The other element of mainstream law that is trashed under the so called family law system is everyone's right not to be defamed. When my brother separated the false and defamatory material about him was breathtaking. It was all sourced from only one, very obvious individual without the slightest hint of acting in good faith. This stuff, in a small community, was far more emotionally draining than the original emotional abuse in the marriage but the truth, ultimately, came through. You see, the strain he was under meant that he was often mistaken for my older brother. But he soon found a supportive partner. They live close by but visit often, as the song goes, and he is now a regular victim, and perpetrator, of random acts of gratuitous nurturing. He now looks his age and the contrast is so pronounced that everyone who knew his old self now understands exactly who was the abuser and who was the victim

Hamlet, a beautiful post - thanks. I understand where you are coming from, I had some similar issues. I took the view that I was released from my commitment when the ex decided to walk out (again).

I missed putting short seperations on my list of steps for upping the ante when forcing an issue. Each of us has to decide for themselves how far the other party can breach the core committment before the contract is void. I'm of the view that the world would be a better place if more people took their commitments as seriously as you do.

enaj, I agree with much of what you say and at the same time with many of Maximus's comments. Hamlet's comments about control are at the core of a lot of this. The extremists on both sides of these kinds of issue keep missing the boat, both men and women have copped some rough deals throughout history. Surely the image of the wowser old lady (Rhona Joiner) running the "spot it and stop it" committee is just as valid as that of the puritanical old man (Fred Nile) trying to decree how others shall live. Somewhat outside the physical abuse issue but probably part of the kind of attitudes that contribute to DV.

Cheers
R0bert

As I have already said; of course there are women who have mistreated men, and there are men who have mistreated men and women who have mistreated women. Just as there are black people who have mistreated white people and black people who have mistreated black people and white people who have mistreated black people, etc, etc, etc. The difference is when such behaviour has been enshrined in law, like apartheid or the racial segregation laws in the Deep South, or in the woman-controlling societies Waleed is talking about, or places with Sharia law, then we are talking about systemic oppression, not simply individual.
And you simply cannot equate male circumcision with female circumcision. Taking the foreskin is entirely different from excising the clitoris, and sewing the labia together leaving a tiny hole to pee out of. Female circumcision doesn't just remove all pleasure from sex (you'd have to cut off a man's penis to do the equivalent), it causes all sex to be excrutiatingly painful, and makes childbirth not just agonising but deadly dangerous.
And , of course, not all men oppress all women, but in some societies law, religion and culture can conspire to make it seem that way.

And as I have already said, female circumcision is a woman/girl issue so it has nothing to do with alleged systemic oppression of women by men. And in some societies law, religion and culture do conspire to make men's lives extremely miserable and thanks to things like White Ribbon Day in Western societies, it makes men appear as demons and doesn't make anything whatsoever better. It is an affront to all good decent men and women, the majority, and it should not be tolerated, because it perpetuates a gross lie.

Real family violence is a non-sexist crime and until it is treated like that there can be no meaningful resolution for the shocking thing that it is. Those genuine people who suffer real pain and real heartfelt isolation caused by family violence - especially the children - need real help, not just man-bashing propaganda from the lunatic feminist-left.

I know, because I was one of those kids, thanks to an aggressive mother, who destroyed my happy life as a child and drove my father out of his own home and out of my life forever. Both are deceased now, but I don't know if I can ever find it inside to forgive her.

But hey, that's life. Best just move on, get over it and try to live a better life.

Maximus

I find it difficult to believe that you actually believe what you have written about female circumcision.

It's a woman/female issue? It's not about oppression of women by male persons?

Sounds like you are trying to stir up a very nasty argument.

It is only a female issue in the sense that females are victims of such barbaric practices perpetrated by men.

Enaj's description and assertions regarding female circumcision are accurate and valid.

Kay

enaj, I guessing that you and I are focussing one different ends of the article. Much of the first part of the article has little to do with the situation in mainstream australian society. It is however vitally important to understand when we think about what is happening for others. Because of my own experience I'm somewhat more focussed on the second part of the article and the issues around family violence in mainstream Australian society.

Maximus and Kay - I know very little about the practice of FGM. I did do some searching following Kay's post and found some interesting snippets. From http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5001116976

"...studies that systematically investigate the sexual feelings of women and men in societies where genital surgeries are found are rare, and the scant information that is available calls into question the assertion that female genital surgeries are fundamentally antithetical to women's sexuality and incompatible with sexual enjoyment."

"Those who practice some of the most controversial of such customs--clitoridectomy, polygamy, the marriage of children or marriages that are otherwise coerced--sometimes explicitly defend them as necessary for controlling women and openly acknowledge that the customs persist at men's insistence."

"It is difficult for me--considering the number of ceremonies I have observed, including my own--to accept that what appear to be expressions of joy and ecstatic celebrations of womanhood in actuality disguise hidden experiences of coercion and subjugation. Indeed, I offer that the bulk of Kono women who uphold these rituals do so because they want to--they relish the supernatural powers of their ritual leaders over against men in society, and they brace the legitimacy of female authority and, particularly, the authority of their mothers and grandmothers."

Also an interesting read at http://www.members.tripod.com/~Wolvesdreams/FGM.html - not sure how credible it is but intersting discussion on Muslims and FGM.

R0bert

Female circumcision is also a matter of 'property rights', in that a woman's reproductive potential is seen as having a value that must be protected from non economic use.

Consequently the 'principle' behind of honour killings, female circumcision, child brides, bride burning, cousin marriage and even the wearing of a white dress by a western bride (white for virginity) are all linked.

This is a gender issue from the perspective of the victims being female, but the perpetrators of this abuse are both males and females. In many cultures it is the women of the village / community who carry out the circumcision: it is seen as one way of ensuring that the girl has a greater value and can attract a higher dowry.

Female 'circumcision' is almost specifically designed to make sure that a girl would only give up her virginity for the man that her family has arranged for her, and therefore the children of any such union are almost certainly guaranteed to be the children of the husband. Of course, the girl has no choice. There have been hushed up incidents in Australia where grandmothers have been charged with sexual assault after disfiguring their granddaughters, and other instances where girls have been sent overseas, with the consent of the mother, for infibulation to take place.

It is not just an Islamic practise, but a tribal one, by people of many different beliefs, but with the one aim.

Many bride burnings are carried out by the mothers in law of the bride, in order to free their sons so that they can marry another girl who may have a larger dowry.

This of course makes it all the more horrific and harder to accept. The idea that women can carry out such atrocities against other, more vulnerable, women is pretty hard to stomach, and is therefore rejected by many, and the view that it is all about men oppressing women is substituted. That is not to say that men don't play a big part in this abuse, but that men are not the sole sources of abuse.

RObert, Hamlet, Almanac

Pardon my ignorance! I have read and been taught other stuff.

Regards
Kay

How dare Waleed try to say that it is not Islam that is to blame for the disgusting treatment of women,

"This appallingly tribal and un-Islamic practice of trading women to resolve disputes, known as “vani”, is tragically common in the poorest, most illiterate tribal villages in Pakistan"

How does he argue down the fact that all Islamic nations, especially those that are Arabic and practice Sharia Law, still stone so-called adulterers to death, as in many cases in a male dominated culture women are severely mistreated by being raped and then accused of adultery, such as in Pakistan, an Islamic women's group found that 75% of all women in jail are in their because they were raped but charged with adultery. Such treatment of a certain group of people is not historically uncommon, if they are already considered less than men. If it really was just this "vani" practice that Walled tries to escape with, then why are women treated like garbage in every Islamic nation, such as in Saudi Arabia, one of the richest nations in the world, most women are illiterate, but schooling is free, then how are they illiterate?
Why do women have to wear the veil if they don't want to known as the local slut, like all western women are to muslims(thus the high muslim youth gang rape rate). Waleed ought to start wearing a veil himself, as well as all muslim men, now that they are in a country that actually treats all equal, including homosexuals, who if they fancy just might find them(muslim men who are unveiled) immodest and deem them sluts, worthy of a good racist gang rape.

For those who may be ignorant of the facts surrounding female circumcision here is some information -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

Of particular interest to the discussion is the following quote -

"The operation is most often carried out by female practitioners. Thus it has been attributed by some authors to a deep-rooted fear of elder women that the more attractive younger women might seduce away their husbands and thus leave them without support."

Now, how this practice can be attributed to alleged patriarchal subjugation and oppression of women by men is beyond me. Men have very little to do with it. It's a women - grandmothers, mothers, sisters and aunts - thing done to their daughters.

The subject as relating to this forum is totally out of context. You can't go blaming men for the peculiarities of female fears and ancient female customs in medieval societies.

And, if you, kalweb, think that my statements of fact are likely "to stir up a very nasty argument", then so be it. But I shall not sit idly by while my sex is defamed and falsely accused of ever more violence against women. If you want to turn that into a "very nasty argument", then go ahead. But I shall not be silenced on truth.

Kalweb

I am sure that you have learnt and read from some very good sources; however a lot depends on the ideological leanings and intention of the authors and researchers of that material.

I could find and read, if I chose to do so, thousands of articles, publications and books on domestic violence that do not make a single mention of men being victims. In the same way that if I wanted to read up on the Holocaust I could chose to read the works of David Irving, and from those works derive an opinion that the holocaust did not occur. I could also get an impression from other writers that Jews were the only victims.

But of course the holocaust did occur, and whilst many of the victims were Jews, Gypsies and other groups were also slaughtered. It is by reading widely that I can obtain a fuller understanding of the ‘truth’. And men are also victims of domestic violence.

In the same way, you may have been taught that infibulation is purely yet another method of men oppressing women. That does not mean that what you have been taught is the full and only truth.

There are many factors behind female circumcision, and they all involve both men and women, either as perpetrators or being complicit in the practise.

I am old enough to remember when it was unacceptable in this Australian society for a girl who was known to not a virgin to get married in a white dress. This society valued virginity as something to be carried into marriage.

It was both men and women who expected this, and often it was women who were most against the idea of pre-marital sex, because it, in their eyes, devalued the commodity that they could provide in the marital bed. In effect, the idea of the disgrace of not being legitimately able to wear that white dress was a symbolic chastity belt as strong, at that time, as female circumcision is now.

But our society has changed, and this particular form of symbolism has changed as well.

Hamlet, Maximus can I request that you lighten up a bit on Kay. If you have a read through her posts on a variety of topics you will find that she is generally a moderate and has stuck up for men in places where the deliberately sexist are on the attack.

I think part of what we do here is test our views and opinions against others to learn and grow (I know some don't do that).

Assume that Kay is serious in what she says, willing to learn and think about stuff and review then please your posts. Also assume that Kay is generally fairly well informed and is worth listening too.

Now back onto the topic.

My brief skim of the literature showed a mix of causes for the ongoing nature of FGM. Some clear statements that men are involved in wanting it (last thing I would want in a potential partner) and plenty of statements about cultural identity and women regarding it as important. In cultures where it is practiced it looks to me as though it is so much a part of teh culture that all the adults advocate it, men and women. Kids growing up are taught to think of it as important for their becoming adults.

Men were and are involved but their co-conspiritors were and are women. Not a case of men oppressing women, rather an example of a cultural practice which I hope disappears from the face of the earth.

I've read and heard similar about footbinding but am rusty on that topic.

R0bert

Mathew S... I don't think Saudi is denying women education any longer although I can't be sure on that for the whole of Saudi. Perhaps Waleed would know. What I do know is that they cannot vote and I do not understand why there aren't western muslim groups lobbying for reform in that area (there are certainly muslims inside those countries trying to get reform). In fact, what I don't get is why muslims are always going on about how Islam is pro womens equality but don't seem to be very vocal on issues like voting rights in those countries like Saudi, the Gulf etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong but instead of Islamic groups in the West promoting modernisation in suppressed muslim countries, all I see is the promotion of further fundamentalisation. Maybe it's just that the fundies are getting more airplay.

I wonder if we In Australia will ever see an Islamic community demonstration outside the Saudi/Pakistani embassy demanding the end to FGM/vani/voting.

Hamlet and Maximus

Well, what a learning curve for me. Clearly I have been listening to the wrong people, and reading the wrong literature. I have since read material that you both espouse. Frankly, I am shocked beyond belief.

I had no idea about the role of women in this autrocity. My apologies for my ignorance. Life is too short - but never too short to learn something new, and consider another viewpoint. Thank you.

RObert

As usual, thank you for your usual even handed approach to emotive issues.

Thanks fellas
Cheers
Kay

Waleed Ali's articles are always typically defensive, as are every Muslim who writes articles about Islam sadly. I suppose if one feels that their identity is under attack one subconciously is programmed to defend it, however weak their posistion.

However, in this article Ali has made some critical errors. Islam, unfortunately, and this isn't to say it's only Islam that treats women bad (why do non-Muslims feel that we must categorically say that we know it's not all Muslims, and so on, that do bad things? Perhaps because when someone attacks a Muslim radical, ALL Muslims feel offended or whine that we are offending them all?) has a long history of this type of treatment against women.

For Ali to argue it's tribal is rubbish. Most of these gang rape victims are sentenced by tribal elders yes, but in SHARIA COURTS WALEED!

Why did he leave this out? Likely they've misinterpreted Islam though right? Aren't we sick of hearing that one! Is Sheik Hilali, the leader of Islam in Australia, un-Islamic for praising terrorism? If so, why haven't Muslims protested he step down?

Look, women were treated crappy in the west too. It was only 40 years ago that white men grew up. I can't see this happening though in the Arab, or Pakistani world in the future.

I sincerly believe that the west needs to force our values on them, as our values are universal. To live in a backward tribal system is fine, but now you guys are getting your hands on western weapons so must be dealt with. The west can't allow inferior cultures (yes I don't subscribe to the nonsense that all cultures are equal. Neither does anyone else, that is why they all flock to western nations).

Sorry, I can't let the stuff on female genital mutilation go unchallenged.
Yes, women carry out the procedure on 6 year old girls, but they do it because of a belief that the girls will not get a husband if they are left uncircumcised.
The women who are currently touring Africa with a play trying to end the practice show the play to both men and women to encourage them to spare their daughters. The play features an imaginary tribe that cut off women's left legs to make them more sexually attractive to the scorn, disbelief and hilarity of the audience, they then slowly reveal that this is a metaphor for female circumcision.
There is also nothing new about the oppressed meeting out the oppression. Black slave units fought for the Confederates in the American Civil War, Jewish boards of deputies selected the Jews for transportation in the Warsaw ghetto. Yet no-one in their right mind would argue that Jews, not Germans, were the oppressors in WW2, or that black slaves were the oppressors in the slave states of the South, so lets not do the same with women, either.

With Enaj on this - I often wonder why some women involve themselves in acts like FGM. As Enaj has pointed there is an all too human pattern of behaviour in the victims siding with their oppressors.

Possibly power has a lot to do with this - side with the winners.

I am concerned at some of the posters comments stating that Waleed should stick to Muslim topics - I find this ironic considering that the same posters complain about Muslims not integrating.

Here Waleed has touched on an issue that effects us all.

I understand that many men may feel neglected as they too have suffered from DV. I agree that there is a need for more social awareness and support in this area.

I, have suffered from 8 years of DV too. However, I do not blame the entire male sex for the abuse I received.

I have also been victimised by female bullies in the workplace. This is why I have no trouble believing the men who have posted here. However, my experience in learning martial arts has been interesting because I found it very difficult as did many other women in learning to attack and spar with another person. Hitting just doesn't really come naturally. I am still much more adept at defence rather than offence.

Humans will intimidate others using the easiest strategies - while I am sure that some women do hit their partners, the percentage would be lower than for males. Women tend to bully by psychological means.

Nonetheless, DV is a problem for us all. In many developing countries, as Waleed has pointed out, women are still treated as chattel.

Societies where women are treated as equals tend to be more civilised than those where women are marginalised.

Waleed is courageous for speaking out. Instead of complaining about who is the biggest victim, we need to unite against discrimination of anyone be it for their sex, colour, race or religion.

enaj, have you considered (or are you willing to) consider the possibility that this is more of an all of culture issue. Even with a relatively brief survey of material that was something that stuck out very clearly except on the most hard core of feminist sites.

Women have come to believe that FGM is important for their identity and coming of age. It does not appear to just an issue of eligibility for marriage but something much deeper. Trying to simplify it to a "men oppressing women" thing really is not doing justice to the complexity of the issue. I have no idea how the practice started but it is clear that support for it's ongoing nature is not gender oppression, rather a sign of cultures which have incorporated a very sick and sad practice.

I see it as a very nasty and hardcore version of requirements that women dress modestly advocated by some in our culture. Certainly not something I personally favour. My impression is that women are just as much a part of pushing that type of viewpoint as men. For some it is part of their culture, how they think things should be.

For reference for those looking to do some Muslim bashing the former paragraph was written considering Christain ideas's of modesty, after writing it I thought of the young girls pushing to be allowed to wear head coverings at school and how much that appears to tie in with sense of identity and the like.

You might also consider who does the pushing for young girls to get piercings for jewelery, a much less severe form of mutilation seen by some as making women more attractive to men. Are teenage girls with multiple piercings a sign of oppression by men or just people expressing their identity and sense of belonging to a particular cultural grouping?

R0bert

To enjay,

I knew you'd take that tack. I just knew you would. I knew it because I spend some time in virtual combat with those who espouse the very same rhetoric.

Blaming men for female circumcision in African/Asian communities is exactly like blaming men in Western society for the behaviours of modern women. Things like wearing makeup (a very bizarre activity performed by multiple millions of women costing billions of dollars that could be better spent on more humane endeavours, like campaigning to stop female genital mutilation - FGM, that men don't want), owning twenty, thirty pairs of shoes, wearing very expensive sexually explicit clothing, buying millions of magazines about the same, shaving their body hair and getting painful genital waxing and body mutilations such as tattoos, body piercing and scars, as well as highly expensive body modifications and breast implants through plastic surgery.

The fact is that modern Western women do these tragic things to themselves, not to please or suit Western men, we don't care, but to please and suit their own vanity and other women!

Of course it could be argued that this was women being sucked into men's subjugation, but for crikey's sake, get real. Women do these things through personal fears and cultural impositions created by other women - the same as FGM. It has absolutely nothing to do with men and I strongly and respectfully suggest that any spin to accuse men for this behaviour is fanciful and mendacious.

Minuet,

this is true... No protests will come from within the muslim community that last very long. Look at Rushdie, or any other islamic group that tries to include homosexuality or women's equality in Islam itself, they get threatenned and shouted down. What's worst though is that no western groups who espouse human rights and equality ever step up to support any muslims who may be trying to speak out against mistreatment. They are all cowards. The people who do verbally support them are deemed right-wing rednecks and racists.
The muslim culture has yet to have their Luther, because everytime he tries to pop up he gets his head cut off by fanatics and no outside(western) support is forthcomming, which is what is needed if places like Suadi Arabia are ever going to be civilised.

Still nobody has countered my point that Ali is wrong about it being tribal. There are Islamic teachings that explicitly state that women are half the worth of men. The "tribal" elders sentence these innocent women to gang rape using Sharia Provisions in a Sharia court. Why leave this out Ali?

In my opinion most domestic violece is instigated by women,take my wife for instance.Last week my wife was in hospital having an operation on her appendix,as the dutiful husband I went in to visit her.and as I was going out night clubbing that evening I took my good pants and shirt in with me for her to iron.She not only lost her temper with me,she put the creases in the wrong place.Of course she really got upset with me when I asked her if sex was out of the question.In the end she said o/k if I would put the curtain screens around the bed.

She said If I didn't stop acting so selfish she wouldn't lay the pavers,paint the kitchen,or concrete the driveway when she came out of hospital.

Now if all women were like my missus there would be no domestic violence.

YO!

LOL!

MR PHILB, no yet, SIR PHILB, a man with the sense of humour that you have deserves to be Knighted.

A good laugh, many thanks mate.

Hello Maximus

Thanks for the compliment.You will be happy to know that the good wife has recovered from her operation and is back at home.Actually she is outside right now,mixing up a nice load of concrete.We don't have daylight saving here in the West so I hope she finishes the driveway before it gets dark,as I want her to wash the car before she cooks dinner.

Our Docter has told me to take it easy for the next few days because I have been worrying about my wifes recovery.He gave my wife some good pain killers so sex should be o/k for this evening.This of course will be after she runs a nice relaxing bath and washes my back.

I don't want you to thinking I am a male chauvinist pig, as I have been known to open the door for her if both her hands are full of shopping.

As for a knighthood Im sorry mate I am a republican besides, it would mean sending my wife to pick it up.She is far to busy at the moment.

Regards Phill.

PHILB, your imaginary wife seems to appreciate how very lucky she is to have you.

Hello Seeker,
Im sorry my good wife does know how lucky she is to have me.Only last week she suggested we do the marriage vows again,I said o/k only if you drive to church and make all the arrangements.

Yea Right.If my missus was to read the sh.te I was putting on here,my balls would end up in the cement mixer and later be under the slabs I am currently laying.