CARNIFEX. You can add shop assistants and receptionists to your list of people that have daily contact with Muslims and speak of them in a negative way. Has nothing to do with racism.

If male Muslims were a little less domineering, less beligerant and not as rude to females it would do wonders for intergration. But what are the chances of that happening?

Maybe John Stone is right in that many Muslims cannot or do not wish to intergrate.

What happens after the next terrorist bomb attack on a western nation?
As further inpost on everyones civil liberties would not be politically acceptable. Do we then ban further Muslim immagration?

"Shakira specifically rejects such idiotic edicts as being integral to her practice of her religion."

Let me very clear: The style and type of dress may be a factor in the acts and attitudes by Muslims against women. However, the fact that many (most?) of the victims are non-Muslims is just as important if not more than the dress issue. Does Shakira ask why? NO, because that might lead to some conclusions that she, as a Muslim, would prefer not to face.

Of course the "idiotic edicts" are NOT "integral to her practice of her religion." They are not integral, they are a consequence of what Islam teaches. Mohammud says you can rape your married females slaves (I noticed nobody even argued that point). He also said women are difficient in intelligence. He said a woman's word is worth half of a mans. He was a wife-beater. And so on. This is the guy that described paradise as a bordello in the shy (a little exageration, but not by much!). I guess some Muslims men cann't wait!

"Only in Australia"? FH? Muslims like Shakira live in a world of make-believe, where their words and wishes are everything, and facts and reality are ignored. Look at the 5-fold increase in rapes in Scandinavia. Go a Google seach and add "Muslims". Can you guess which group is filling domestic violence shelters in many European countries? Of course, the fact that so may statistics indicate that Islam has problems is also something that Muslims prefer to ignore. One thing they never do is ask "why". Why? Think Shakira, think!

Continued...

Philo, Redneck, You are right. The Muslim community will not weed out or protest this because they are in fact understood to be part of Islam. It is like the terror issue, Muslims condemn and condemmn and then say the fatal word "but". And the terror will continue, as will the rapes.

Shakiras article is just cute words for the consumption of stupid infidels. She says what she is expected to say, no more, no less. There is no analytical depth to it nor any thought as to why this problem is so common in Islam.

There will be more rapes and more terror and killings and people like Shakira will dust out their condemnations and recycle them again and again.

Donnie, regarding our "prejudices," perhaps a better description of this discussion is standing up and speaking out for what we believe. I have no problem with fh, Shakira, Irf or Waleed speaking out, as long as I get to put in my few words. They have the right to criticize me, or my facts or my logic. I am not afraid and I don't hold it against them personally. I don't know them. I think they are wrong, and worse, by their denial they are contributing to the problem rather than helping solve it.

The ability to criticize Islam or Muslims (or anybody else) for what they say and do is part of the freedoms we hold dear, and for you and anyone else here to write this off as racism, hate or prejudice is to deny our right to express ourselves (not to mention your inability to argue facts). Take away the liberty of expression and you have nothing (as is the case in so many Islamic countries0.

Kactuzkid

Boaz,

Australian Muslims are wondering which aspects of the Australian culture we do not assimilate to and no thanks to BD we have an answer:

- So, we need to replace the Aussie lamb kebabs with pork kebabs.
- Have a dog is a must have or replace cat pets with dogs (‘dogs are unclean’ is a myth and not religion, their saliva carries part of their urine so you need to wash your hands or shower before praying, I had 2 German Sheppard dogs).
- Because ‘sex sells’ and the ‘almighty dollar’ are today’s dominant realities, let us stop raising families, enjoy consumerism, play the pokies and be in debt forever, preferably in bikinis! (Another myth: Islam have no dress code but moderate guidelines which is ‘non descriptive non transparent’ for men and women).
On the last point, I thought consumerism is a key risk to our economy, lifestyle and culture.
According to Peter Costello, having families with three kids are the only hope for a better future for Australia. An average Australian Muslims will have a lot less debt (or unsecured debt) than the average Australian. I think on these fronts I would argue that Australian Muslims are ‘better Australians’?
Can I ask you honestly are you joking or being serious?

Kaktuz,

you chose fear or prejudice and you filter through all that confirms your fear. It is your choice not to see any of the good things about Australian Muslims, your choice to ignore an achievement by Muslim women in Tunisia to get women in the Tunisian parliament up to 11.5% (higher than in France and most EU). American Muslims were to first to report and deport suspect Islamist terrorist.
‘think’ is a message to yourself or better: ‘why’.

Themistocles,

Hijab in most cases have nothing to do with Muslim men or their choices (except parts of Saudi Arabia and Iran). None of the females in my family asked their husbands or fiancés when they decided to wear it or take it off. You created a false assumption and built a theory on top.

F.H. in glorious style you seem to have totally missed my point.

No, you should not at all follow the trends of the Western money makers dictates.

Islamic dress code is quite specific as you pointed out. It doesn't say 'wear this color' or anything but it does have the guidelines which seem to be interpreted in similar ways by Muslims, and are VERY differnt to even the most modest Western dress. "Islamic" dress that I saw EVERYwhere in Western Sydney is a cultural slap in the face to the host culture.

Modesty can be achieved with various clothing styles. Why not make more effort to adapt to the local style while maintaining the modesty of which you speak ?

The only point I was making in my last paragraph about cultural incompatability was the food laws. I asked you once if you would come to my place for a Barby and you said "As long as the meat is Kocher or Halal".. well..thats my point. How can Muslims assimilate when they have food laws which exclude them from fellowship with non Muslims ?

I suppose I would be less 'concerned' about this had it not been for the blatant discrimination perpretrated by the Muslim Mayor of Hume council deciding to deny ham sandwiches to the vast majority of residents at council functions here.

There is no point in defending this, it happened and the community was outraged and insulted. Tip of the iceberg ?
How about 'ladies only nights' at swimming centres ? :) My my..now that would not be 'more discrimination based on Islamic law would it ?

So, when Muslims are prepared to share meals with Aussies, without rejecting the food, (except for pork which is understandable) things will improve. I just read up on the food laws, the authority said its only "flowing blood" which is haram, and as long as an attempt to remove most of it from the carcas (like by cutting its throat), its ok for Muslim consumption.

I spent most of October in the Middle East, mainly Syria but also Jordan. I lived with a Muslim family in a poor part of Damascus, didn’t see another Westerner in that area. Arabs are renowned for their hospitality and rightly so. Had a great time, was well-looked after and spent many restful hours in mosques and shrines, most were beautiful, some breathtakingly so.

I told my host family of some opinions expressed on OLO and elsewhere - that there are Aussies who think that Muslims can’t be believed because the Quran says it’s OK to lie; that Muslims beat their women; that Islam is a religion of war not peace. They were completely perplexed as to why people in the West might believe this stuff. They’d heard extreme claims made about the values and behaviours of ALL Westerners and ALL Jews but whilst accepting that a minority hold extreme views, have the sense to realise that not all westerners/Jews think the same way.

BD, I’ve asked you before if you have the same issues with Jews and kosher food which for the orthodox means they won’t share meals with non-Jews; and that they won’t work Saturdays or the 8 or 9 holy days; that for the orthodox they would have to leave work early on Fridays in the winter to get home for Shabbat. Jews tend to live close to synagogues and Jewish schools. Are you prepared to say Jews haven’t and can’t assimilate for these reasons?

For the record, I’m Jewish but don’t practice it, also for the record had lunch today with three Muslim friends. Yes, we ate together, no big deal. For many Muslims, it’s just not an issue. My step-father and other rellies wouldn’t eat with you BD unless the food was kosher. I respect their right to do that. Makes no difference to me. Maybe because I grew up as a member of a minority group, I view these issues a bit differently