Alchemist,
You are so under-researched in who actually cares for the poor. It is 90% of charities funding are supported by religious people or Church organisations. What have you personally done to eleviate poverty or given to the poor this year? As well as supporting local charities I give 2% of all my income to overseas aid, for education, welfare, building schools and village wells. Research done by the registered charities reveal that it is the religious that are the major sponsors.

Quote, "It is also why the gap between the rich and the poor is growing another exampkle of the god fearing and how lovuing ans caring they aren't."

You are nothing more than a hateful winger filled with anger. Imagine a society based upon your agenda. Violence would reign! Well we had one like that called the USSR.

Yabby,

I agree with your comment on separation of religion and state.
The purpose of my article on the blogspot was to prove that freedom of choice existed in the early days of Islam. This article was in response to a common myth promoted among muslims that Islam is only about ‘imposed religious leadership’. This is just straight non-sense.

There were few good calls on separation of religion and state (Ataturk, Sadat & Nasser in Egypt started it).

The point you mentioned is important and I referred to it on my blog:

Democracy guarantees that leadership reflects the voters majority. Hence Ahmedinejad had 64% nad Bush had 54+%of votes. The issue to me becomes what defines what type of average voter hails to a president saying he is on a mission from God or God is telling him to do things…I am an average voter but will tell my president to go get professional psychiatric help if you are hearing voices.

Honestly and knowing the average voter in the middle east, I would probably advocate secular soft dictatorship then gradually moving into democracy over the next 2-3 decades. A wake up to democracy can repeat what happened in Algeria and Iran. You watch Iraq over the next 3 years: it will be another Iran.

Scout & Robert,

I agree that communication and understanding what we have in common is the key to peace. On the pet front, I am still for Egyptian black cats and German Sheppard dogs

Meredith & p.pig,

In the ‘never ending story’ we can play the “I quote a website link, you quote one”.
Lookup Falcor the flying dragon, fortunately I am not him. I still can’t get what are you selling me?

I apologise for saying ‘the non-muslim Taliban’, I noticed few posters took it personal.

Peace,

RObert:

I find it interesting that you refer to Fellow Human in such moist terms, perhaps you do not like the fact that he is being pressured to defend his claims. I can only speculate however as you seem keen to avoid specifics, as is he.

"I join with Scout in hoping that they represent a vocal minority and that most Australians are much more into judging people as they find them."

It is strictly the case that he is being held to account for precisely his words, perhaps you could explain how that is not an example of taking someone as you find them?

"your thoughtful and reasoned responses continue to do yourself and your faith credit"

This is risible, his disingenuous and shifty evasions do his faith a grave disservice. He got caught out trying to palm off a whopper and still has not the decency to admit it, preferring rather to obfuscate and evade the issue. It is inexplicable that you could truly believe him if you have actually bothered to read his supporting statements and compared them to his claims.

Fellow Human:

"I still can’t get what are you selling me"

It is simple, either you stand by your original statements or you do not. I paraphrase as the original quote is repeated a few posts above:

Out there somewhere are 8000 bodies and some 32000 fingers that the pope, by some insinuation of yours, either overtly or tacitly condoned the removal of? All this as some slight against islam.

Specifically, show it to be true. Such a horrendous atrocity will be well known and take 5 seconds to google some documentation for. Alternatively back down and admit that you made it all up. It is the remnants of your credibility at stake and it is very simple to rectify.

Mr P Pig,

I went through my postings above and I believe I explained my comments clearly:

1. There were 8,000 murdered for no reason but being muslims:

http://deseretnews.com/dn/print/1,1442,600147511,00.html
http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-7-11/30214.html
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-10/21/article26.shtml
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-07/12/content_459420.htm

2. Their bodies were mutilated:
Here is a link to an article by Grace Halsell who served as a speech writer in the White House for President Johnson.
http://muslimsonline.com/babri/halsell1.htm
here is another article that talks about missing noses and ears:
http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports/2nd.html

There are more articles with pictures on the net to make me puke but if you enjoy that stuff, knock yourself out.

3. The murderers were blessed by a senior Orthodox priest (ie in service priest and not an outcast or rebel). Only after the video tape was revealed on 12th June 05 that the Orthodox Church condemned the killings (10 years later).

http://www.witness.org/forum/index.php/topic,85.0.html

4. To-date I did not see a comment from the pope rejecting the Orthodox church massacre, on the contrary, I see his comments calling for ‘unity’ with the very same sect.

5. I do accept that murderers have nothing to do with religion and to be fair, I am not expecting him or other followers of the Christian faith to apologise for atrocities. My question was to why do you expect Muslims to be apologetic?

How clear is that?

Mr P. Pig you might want to go back and read the original article again (or should I say read the article).

From my perspective I see a human being trying to hold a conversation to address how we might overcome of the issues which are causing concern to non-muslims and moderate muslims alike. I see this person constantly attacked by people who give every appearance of having as a sole aim discrediting his religion. Most simply achieve the discrediting of their own instead. By their fruit's you will know them.

If what was happening had the appearance of a genuine attempt at dialog rather than the prosecution trying to entrap a witness I might have more interest in the nature of FH's responses to you and other posters. I have little interest in the actual content of the Quran, I've spent enough time around the christain church to know how little impact the contents (and specific interpretations thereof) have to do with the way most believers choose to live their lives. If you think FH is evasive I suggest you try and get BD to have a relevant discussion about the behaviour of the christian God in the Old Testament or to talk about the responsibilities of the head of the church for modern day abuses (widespread child abuse etc).

So what can you contribute to the topic given
- A significant number of muslims live in Australia and there have been muslims in this country for a long time.
- They are extremely unlikely to go away or ditch their religion anytime soon.
- Constant external attack is more likley to entrench insularity in the muslim community rather than break down barriers.
- Some like FH, Shakira, etc are making a clear attempt to open dialog with the non-mulsim community.

So
- Are you going to be part of a solution or part of the problem?
- Are you willing to try some dialog with FH and others and ask your questions from that framework or does it have to be conflict?

R0bert

Fellow Human,

You refer to Srebrenica now, it is indeed the war crime that claimed 8000 dead. I mentioned this earlier as you are probably aware. Nothing in those links refers to 8000 mutilated people. Only isolated incidents as I also mentioned in an earlier post. Basically you have achieved nothing other than post irrelevant links. Again.

And no, I do not appreciated the slur concerning things that turn me on. I do however appreciate honesty.