Goldbrick thats for your comment. When people use words that are basically gibberish, I usually conclude that they have lost the
plot completely :)

The world makes perfect sense, if we go by the evidence. If the
so called Almighty wants us to believe in him/her, he/she are free to
post the rules on the moon, for all to see. Meantime we have had people fight and argue and kill each other in the name of religion for eons. None of the so called holy books that I have seen would stand up to scrutiny in a court of law. But people will continue to squabble over them for eons more no doubt.

Evolution theory today is accepted in virtually every university around the world, based on the evidence. When a new aircraft is
designed, we rely on science, on what we know and what we can prove and test. I have yet to see any religious person climb onboard an aircraft, where supernatural or magical forces designed it :)

So Goldbrick, I guess I understand why you are religious, thats fine, some people need to quell their anxiety, cool. I shall continue to be a skeptic agnostic and let you guys quarrel over which god/gods and which so called holy books. I'll check the moon each night too, to see if the evidence has appeared yet :)

Scout, thanks for the great posts btw...

Ifran, Ash, Shakira, B_D, kactuz, myself and others are debating the issues on "the wrong type of Muslim" and trying to identify their belief difference that might cause an Islamic extremist to threaten or take the life of those with whom they dissagree.

The subject is not evolution, which some here have become obsessed, applying it to every topic. It is obvious you know nothing of the text, the subject, or the experience of faith, otherwise you would add intelligent debate and not ridicule.

Though F_H and B_D are on diametrically opposed positions they do not resort to personally degrading each other, but defend textually their position and belief. For those off subject please stop acting like a pack of hienas at a fresh kill. We are mature boys and do not intend to draw any blood.

As promised....

Note: the HADITHS are the “traditions” relating to Muhammad and companions. Hadiths are considered essential for determining the Sunnah, or Muslim way of life. Muslim “experts” have spend a lot of time in classifying hadiths as to content, number of sources, continuity, authenticity, etc. For simplicity, lets concentrate on so-called authentic (sahih / saheeh) and good (hasan) hadiths.

First, an introduction from non-Islamic source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith
“The overwhelming majority of Muslims consider hadiths to be essential supplements to and clarifications of the Quran”

Starting close to home, from
http://islamicsydney.com/links.php?cat=13&subcat=18
Links to:

(Below are quotes about hadiths)
1. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/sbtintro.html
Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them (Quran and Sunnah). Bukhari's collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet...

2. http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=106
This thorough authentication process ensures that these accounts are real, validated narrations of the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals of the Prophet Muhammad.

3. http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/quran/
These (hadiths) are the real explanation, interpretation, and the living example of the Prophet (...) for teachings of the Qur'an.

Also,
4. http://www.iisca.org/articles/document.jsp?id=65
(Ahl Sunnah wal Jama'ah Association) The Shareeah, which is embodied (in) the Quran and Sunnah, are the proclamations of Allah and His Messenger (...) ...it is obligatory for every Muslim to obey any command that he hears from Allah or His Messenger (...), even if the command should go against his own desires, opinion or against popular opinion.

5. http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=141
To be a true Muslim, the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (...) must be followed. The sources of information about the Sunnah are found in Hadith...

6. http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=2110&dgn=4
(www.islam-qa.com) The Sunnah (words and deeds of the Prophet) came to explain and complement the Qur’aan.

7. http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-search.htm
Is There Any Sacred Source Other than the Quran? Yes. The sunnah... the second source in Islam. The sunnah is comprised of hadeeths...

8. http://www.discoverislam.com/poster.asp?poster=DIP2004_12&page=1
Apart from the Quran is their any other sacred source? Yes…

9. http://www.islamiska.org/e/sohadith.htm
(The science of hadith) ...the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophe

10. http://www.islamicvoice.com/2001-08/hadith.htm
In Islam law and religion exist side by side in the light of Quran and Hadith.

11. http://www.ourdialogue.com/h1.htm#2 It goes without saying that the set of conditions established by Al-Bukhari was the most stringent of all. (and ) http://www.islamworlduk.com/index.html?lang=en-uk&target=d34.html Bukhari: The most truthful book, after Al-Quran.

12. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/afor.html
Allah caused the Muslim nation to produce outstanding individuals of incredible memory-skills and analytical expertise, who journeyed tirelessly to collect hundreds of thousands of narrations and distinguish the true words of precious wisdom of their Messenger... from those corrupted by weak memories... to transmit the legacy of Muhammad

Visit the links above for full text.

Oh yes, that www.islam-qa.com site (6) is both the stupidest and most honest Islamic site on the Internet. You would not believe the merda in it.

FH, it really doesn’t matter what you think. The fact is that almost all Muslims accept the hadiths as divine. The brutal and vile acts of Mohammud don’t bother them. Please don’t tell me the Imams don’t know these texts! The fact that you (at times)do not accept them but continue to associate with Muslims who do says multitudes about your morals.

“Most Muslims don’t know these hadith exist, it is only on Anti-Islamic sites” The problem is not that they are on antiIslamic sites, but that they are in the Quran and hadiths. Duhhhhh. Why is it so hard to find Islamic commentaries on these passages?

If or not Muslims know about these verses exist is not my problem. I may have used the word “denial” sometime. They exist, and because they exist we have articles like this one by Shakira, and we have Islamic terror. By Islam’s own authorities, they are a part of Islam and its practice. Remember, the hate is not just in the Hadiths, but also in the Quran. Or is that book not accepted also? Do you want a list of Quranic verses I find offensive?

“You can’t show me a single Muslim (or website) that says hadith is divine” Nope, but will the 12 above do? Want more?

Kactuzkid

Shakira Hussein argues moderate Muslims are as fearful of Muslim terrorists as non-Muslims are.

Her point has been well made.

Quoting religious texts to one another simply indicates that there are the wrong kind of christians as well.

Until I participated in this forum I believed that the object of religion was a way of living in harmony with one another.

Thank you Philo, BD, Kactuz for convincing me that religion is merely an imaginary construct - if it had any true relevance you would be seeking a way to aid your Muslim brothers.

Where is the love?

I have yet see it.

Now go and smell the flowers. Take a deep breath. Look at the beauty of the world and all the people around you - the overwhelming majority of it is good. By focusing on the bad - the terrorists have won.

Dawood
thanx for your efforts.

Your point number 1 indicates clearly that Islam is not neccessary for Salvation.

Your points 2 and 3 indicate only that increasing awareness of Islam bring increased culpability for those not accepting it.

Kactuz clearly shows how Hadith are regarded, and hadith clearly show the true nature of the man you call a prophet. We reject him. We look at his life, and while there are some commendable aspects, the idea that he is 'from God' simply does not stack up.

I call on you to abandon this darkness and turn to the true One and only God, revealed in Christ.

"36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:36

I'm afraid this means for you, believing in him as Son of God, not simply a prophet.

<<3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.>>

Dawood, do you understand this ? "All things made through Him".....

Have you received Him ?

<<12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God>> John 1:12

SCOUT
"Where is the love"? If you have not seen it, I think you are misreading our intent.

No doctor will tell his cancer ridden patient "No worries..its all good, make plans for the future" No, he speaks truth.

We are advised to 'speak the truth in love' and by and large we do, but being mortal, we have our moments, forgive us for those moments.

But don't justify your own unbelief by pointing to us. Look instead to Christ, learn of Him, and then ur free to judge us as u see fit. But remember, the judgement you give, you will also be judged by, and that applies to us also.

Cheers and you also enjoy the weekend...