Vitz's book is obviously a handy bullwark against the secularist line of how evil religion is. It is a good companion to Alice Miller's "For your own good" that seeks the roots of the violence of WWII in German pedagogy. Also, "The barbarian conversions" by Flecher and "The secular revolution" ed Smith. It is pleasing to see the pendulum swing back in academe, but alas the Australian version still lives in righteous and self congratulatory atheism.

I would be interested to see how the same explanation would be twisted to fit the situation where religious believers are hating and killing each other, because of differences in their religious beliefs. The atheists and their fathers can hardly be blamed for that lot!

I am a third generation secular humanist with a strong and very much present and loving father and grandfather (and mother and grandmother, for that matter). I am, in the main a happy and productive member of society, with my own ideas about truth and morality, but I do not expect others to believe what I believe. My truth is my truth, not The Truth. I cannot agree that religion has historically been a force for good - and I am being ecumenical here, I mean all religion. Religion has always benefited the powerful, men over women, believers over unbelievers, parents over children etc. Not faith, necessarily, not the original prophets perhaps, but the codified rules that always seem to be imposed on faith by human beings. Perhaps religion is like communism, terrific in theory but not so good when it is practised by real, flawed human beings. More human beings have died in the name of Gods throughout history than in the name of anything else, and I include WW2 here. Leading Nazis may have been athiests but the anti-semitism they exploited was very much part of Christian tradition, and most of their followers came from a Christian background.
And the idea I should believe in God because I might go to hell if I am wrong is, to my mind, beneath contempt. If God (should s/he exist) is so petty as to condemn me to eternal suffering simply because I believed something different, then s/he is about as insecure as many of his/her followers. If I was to believe in God, I'd hope they were a more inspirational diety than the one described here.
But please be clear, I do not mock or condemn personal faith. I respect it, it is the need to convert that puzzles me and the heirachy of churches that I take issue with. I'll respect your beliefs and not try to persuade you to believe otherwise, when you respect mine.

enaj; I heartily endorse your sentiments. I am not afraid when my life is at an end, because I do not believe in a god so petty as to condemn me for my belief system.

Ben-Peter Terpstra be more concerned about the good you can do in this current life and leave others to follow their own consciences. I find your reasoning rather faulty eg; muslims have come under just as much if not more criticism by atheists since 9/11. In fact all religions must come under question when disputes between them leads to so much bloodshed.

BTW my father is alive and well and we have a very good relationship.

I can see this being a repeat of previous discussions. The author does raise a point which is worthy of discussion. The issue of the risks associated with being wrong about God.

- Firstly he narrows the field a bit to much. By my understanding there are plenty of other belief structures which place evangelical christians at risk if the other belief structure is correct - even with christianity there has been a history of suggesting other denominations might be at risk let alone the possibility that the Muslem's might be on the right track. Every belief structure carries a risk if you are wrong.

- The view that there is nothing for christians to lose if there is no god/eternity etc. There is some sense to this. I take the view that the only thing I really have is my life. I don't wish to waste it serving a lie. I try and live by ethics which I can be happy with.

- I don't see living an eternity with the christian god as a thing to aspire to if that god is a reliably portrayed in the bible and represented by his body the christian church. Not wishing to be a snob but you have to have some standards.

- My finite brain is unable to come to terms of an eternity of pain and suffering - what I can grasp of the idea is something that I dread the thought of. Do I sell out and worship the idea of a god I have no respect for because of the penalty if I don't? When I am not in the heat of the moment (no hot brimstone here) then I will make what I consider to be the ethical choice and reject that. Not sure I will be wrapped in my choice if I am wrong about god and ethics seem like a moot point but how sure are any of us ahead of time.

I embraced atheism after I participated in and rejected the alternatives.I discuss my beliefs with other people who are interested to hear my point of view and I am not interested in participating in an evangelical crusade.I dont believe in god,I do not anticipate a 'life after death'...Pie-in-the-sky....
I don't believe in the creationist theory. I'm grateful to Charles Darwin and other thinkers who continue to add to our knowledge.
You can believe what you like as long as you dont seek to force your beliefs on me.I am polite and civil to the door knockers seeking to reinforce their own beliefs by convincing others but I would prefer they don't waste my time or theirs.

Humans need a creed to live by and I reckon one could be developed if you took the best out of each of the basic tenets and just called it "THE CREED"...But I'm not holding my breath, The chance might arise when the American Empire goes the way of the Roman Empire.

Maracas.