Philo,

like many on ‘your side’ of the debate, you make a mistake by describing evolutionary theory as being simply random and accidental.

The phrase ‘natural selection’ was put forward by Darwin in relation to the ‘artificial selection’ he observed in domesticated animals. Humans artificially breed advantageous traits into cats, dogs, cows, etc, whereas in nature, advantageous traits are selected by natural selection via processes such as genetic mutations, gene flow and genetic drift.

There is ‘purpose’ in natural selection: adaptation to and survival in a changing environment. This is what scientists refer to when they speak of ‘nature’s design’. There is certainly no long term ‘purpose’ to this evolution, or any progress toward fulfilling the goals of an external being.

The ‘militant atheists’ that the article refers to (which we are supposed to be discussing, by the way) would argue that the human mind is related primarily to the purpose of language and reason. Neither of which you seem to have a decent grasp of.

The theory of evolution is based on far more logic and scientific fact than the theory of religion.

It would be really an enticing feeling of security to know that some perfect being is watching over us, just like mum and dad.The stark reality of survival however is the over riding circumstance that is our daily routine.

Where is god ,when after 50yrs of marriage a spouse due to alzhiemers disease, fails to recognise their partener with whom they've shared their most intimate secrets?Surely the spiritual self would come to the fore and over ride any earthly short comings.For your god to forsake you in your most dire hour of need, is surely an act of a traitor.

Computers are already create movies like "Shrek" with characters we empathise with.When science creates robots with emotions and realistic facial expressions,will they too have a soul and a spiritual self?

My view is that the concept of god is irrelevant.It is the development of the "conscious self" that makes us more mature,courageous and dynamic beings.

PS My children go to a religious school and it bothers me not what they believe in terms of god.We judge people by their actions,not their belief systems.Above all,keep an open mind on this amazing universe.Our concept of the singularity of a god or any belief, may well be wrong.

Philo said:

"...atheists believe the mind is a mass of tissue that has random chemical activity that is unrelated to any purpose or principles of design. As I stated - brainless thinking. "

Ummm... that was either the wittiest or dumbest oxymoron I've read from a godbotherer here lately. Given the mental straitjacket chosen by Philo, it has to be the latter...

greg_m Quote, “The ‘militant atheists’ … would argue that the human mind is related primarily to the purpose of language and reason. Neither of which you seem to have a decent grasp of.”

Note: “of” used twice and to end a sentence, both flawed humans, eh? Not all the brain is used for reasoning, as aesthetic appreciation is a form of worship occupied by the mind that can leave us speechless. Those that use this part of the mind love life.

Ringtail Quote,” As Ian says, "The complexity of the universe, and especially of life, fascinates me. I just find it rather sad and reductive to put it all down to "design" rather than seriously trying to understand it."

I ask what methods of rationale will you use to deduce your understanding of reality, obviously not any order or method of deduction? That might give it unintended design. That the universe operates on measurable principles of physics might indicate design, so we ought not use any understanding of design?

As I stated – “brainless thinking”: The reaction to this was typical human deduction. The brain is a physical organ that reasons upon existing known criteria of design or purpose. It is obvious you can conceive purpose outside of evolutionary design, design thought without a brain, will with motive

Maracas, Quote, “I'm grateful to Charles Darwin”.

Evolution isn’t the exclusive domain of Atheists. Darwin was Presbyterian by faith and when aged denounced atheism because they had used evolution as a god substitute. Atheists have refused to believe the principles of design originated from a deliberate act of a designer mind. The Church thinking at the time of Darwin was, God couldn’t design creation where organic death reigned over all life; therefore there has been devolution. AIG are still influenced by such ideas.

I’ve used selective line breeding of dairy cattle and been involved in genetically modifying tomatoes, beans, soy, and melons with Dr Gottle, using radioactive isotopes. Endeavouring to knock out genes and introduce selected genes found in the fruit of the same species mutated, seedless, more tissue, higher oil content etc. External minds causing mutations to normal gene structures with purpose and design to selectively breed designer plants. God happens to use natural organic methods of breeding.

greg_m Quote, “Like many on ‘your side’ of the debate, you make a mistake by describing evolutionary theory as being simply random and accidental.
There is ‘purpose’ in natural selection: adaptation to and survival in a changing environment. This is what scientists refer to when they speak of ‘nature’s design’. There is certainly no long term ‘purpose’ to this evolution, or any progress toward fulfilling the goals of an external being.”

Greg; God is Spirit. So you have found purpose and design in natural selection, certainly a step in the right direction. Do you know of the end for DNA to draw a conclusion about its long term? Science tells us that the human genome is deteriorating because a higher percentage of offspring is from aged and diseased parents and not the most virulent of our seed. Reason: Because we have interfered with the principles of design to serve our own contraceptive purpose. There are design boundaries we need to respect for best practise; it is just that the human mind rebels (mutates) against moral law, and design principles because we assume natural law does not bind us within boundaries

Hey Philo, check out these other great creatures of God’s design: http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/designed_organisms/index.htm
These must all be ‘our fault’ too.