This post is SMOTHERED in honey, .....

Greg, it certainly is a challenge to reconcile all of our 'Disney' upbringing concepts of how the world 'should' be, where Bambi always gets saved etc with the harsher realities of that site you offered, and which I read. It's points like that where I have to try to lift myself out of my own upbringing, and try to see some bigger purpose in what most of us would describe as 'horrible'. I don't know if much of that is related to the 'fall' of man, and the world, but its a possibility.

IAN you would not be the first to say "My life has meaning and I'm not depressed" and u won't be the last. Life without God in ones heart can be quite a happy and pleasurable experience for most of us.
Each time we achieve some major goal, or experience some beneficial or material advance, some relationship .. sure, it can be pretty ok.

But wait. theres MORE :) I can only say that having lived on that side of the fence, I concur with King Solomon in his assessment of life (See Ecclesiastes) "all is chasing the wind" and I further concur with the Apostle Paul who wrote

Philippians 4:6-7 - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which passes all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Note the words "passes understanding" when it refers to the 'peace of God'. That- is what a person who does not yet know Christ is not aware of.

The father of Mark Bailey, who recently murdered the policeman and then killed himself, addressed our fellowship this morning. You would have to know Christ, to understand how people can deal with such a thing in their family. Tragic as it was, that special peace is present in their lives.

The site I offered above makes a simple point: if, as philo would have it, life on earth was designed by god, then this god must surely be a psychopath. The argument commonly put forward against this is 'the fall': it is 'our fault'. This is a 'possibility' just like it is a 'posibility' that my cat is from outer space. But it would be absurd to believe either of these suggestions when there is an explanation with a wealth of evidence behind it: all of life on earth has evolved - without external guidance - from a common ancestor over billions of years.

The people who think this means that there can be no moral law need to understand that ethics is about cooperation - a trait that has evolved in many species to aid in their survival. Human cooperation on a global scale does not require any magical external beings, just thinking humans.

David,
I agree.
As Jesus said to the persons accusing the parents of the boy born blind of sin, "This has happened that the glory of God might be revealed". So he healed him! The character of compassion and healing reveals the very nature of God in man.

Last weekend I saw an extract from the story of Ricky Holtz, born globally disabled, but his father not willing to abandon him to rot in an institution persevered until he could communicate through the use of a computer, and discovered his sons desire to participate in sports. His father took up marathon running pushing Ricky in a wheelchair to the his sons delight. The ultimate quest came when his father ran in the Hawaian Ironman Classic pulling him in a flotation devise, riding his bike with Ricky strapped in a seat over the front wheel and finally in the middle of the night pushing him in his wheelchair to arrive at 4am at the finish line to the applause of hundreds of people. Of all stories of human dignity and devotion this would be among the top. Mutated dissability is not a final failure, it can enhance the pinacle of human endeavour.

Back to Ben's article.

Some of his more controversial points:

1. Pascale's wager (already covered by others)

Like others I am absolutely dumbfounded that he would see this as a 'good argument'. Reveals a lot about his frame of reference.

2. his descriptionon of the fatherless Germans (due to WW1) as 'pathetic'.

Astonishing.

3. fatherless / abused people have some tendency toward atheism.

Speechless. Of course the implication being had they not been fatherless / abused, these great thinkers (at least) may have put their minds to other pursuits. Begs the question: so that's a ...good thing? Has Ben considered that maybe their insights are the reason they are considered great thinkers?

(continued next post)

(contd)

Terminology

Ben deliberately confuses by mixing his terms which is not helpful. Is he really only talking about 'militant atheists' as some posters would have us believe? But that would be silly, because militant anyones are obviously dangerous. If they are militants, does it really matter what brand they are?

He then switches to the term 'evangelical atheists'. How are they different from evangelical Christians? eg. John Knox who commanded: "None provoking the people to idolatrie oght to be exempted from the punishment of death...." Great guy!

Then another switch to the term "prominent atheist thinkers". So by now it's clear that ANY atheist can potentially come under the umbrella of the 'defective father hypothesis'.

And if we thought the slippery slope would finally end, Ben speeds up the evolution of language in record time: 'evangelical secularists' (ie those who staunchly defend the separation of church & state, and have the audacity to keep this in check). What, so now they've had defective fathers too? So now Jefferson's father is suspect.

He then asks "one wonders how famous Jewish and Christian intellectuals were raised?" One wonders indeed. But cast your eye over 'positive atheisms list of scary quotes' (google) and you have to ask: did these very prominent & numerous but intolerant (& occasionally bloodthirsty) Christians also experience the 'defective father hypothesis'? If not, well, that's even more scary.

I do agree with Ben on one thing. To those who give it out, it's only right and proper that they have a taste of their own medicine. This will help them to empathise if nothing else. ALTHOUGH, the church does have a vastly longer track record of evangelising, moralising & intruding. What comes around, goes around.